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Old Jul 1, 2013, 11:49 AM   #51
Digital Skunk
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Originally Posted by Music4Film View Post
Unfortunately for AVID though...their iLok USB copy protection dongle (which is managed by a completely different company called PACE) recently changed their software for authorization and cloud database, etc...and it has been locking people out of using their paid for programs...and erasing other authorizations on the iLok. Big time studios who use both Pro Tools and other plugins that use iLok protection have been locked out for weeks if they were unlucky enough to update their systems right away. Universal Pictures was having major problems.

If you use AVID stuff...you have to deal with iLok. And at this point...that is not looking good as PACE has proven itself to be a company with poor customer support and a cavalier attitude to helping the end user, because the end user is not their customer. AVID is.

Even folks who have bought and paid for the iLok "Zero Down Time" insurance have been down for a couple weeks. It is all a horrible joke at this point.

One can read about it more at the GearSlutz forums Music Computer section where most of the studio heads hang out.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music...-software.html
This is good to know. We don't have to deal with iLok as much on the EDU front. The only iLok we ever needed was for our ProTools HD system. That was installed over 3 years ago.
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Old Jul 1, 2013, 11:59 AM   #52
I WAS the one
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I've been doing Audio Porduction for more than 20 years for a living. Nothing beats Protools.
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Old Jul 1, 2013, 12:30 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by I WAS the one View Post
I've been doing Audio Porduction for more than 20 years for a living. Nothing beats Protools.
I would say it would depend on the project. For audio recording and sound design...ProTools is the industry standard. Yes. A film is mixed on Pro Tools. Music is frequently mixed on ProTools. But...for midi...while ProTools is getting better, there are much better DAWs out there like Digital Performer, Cubase and Logic. The audio of those 3 are just as capable as ProTools..and with the better midi tools, they make a much better experience when using virtual instrument.

If someone was investing in one...I would say they would have to really know what their use is...what the folks around them are using and choose appropriately. Many do midi on Digital Performer, Logic or Cubase and then export OMFs or AAFs to ProTools for delivery. That can be done too. But a lot of the power in ProTools is in those hardware cards...which the native DAWs like the other 3 mentioned do not have. Also...a lot of the expense in ProTools is also in those cards and other hardware. Which is arguable that they are really needed any more with so many other "native" alternatives.

It all just depends on how one is going to use it.

Last edited by Music4Film; Jul 1, 2013 at 12:41 PM.
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Old Jul 1, 2013, 01:17 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Music4Film View Post
I would say it would depend on the project. For audio recording and sound design...ProTools is the industry standard. Yes. A film is mixed on Pro Tools. Music is frequently mixed on ProTools. But...for midi...while ProTools is getting better, there are much better DAWs out there like Digital Performer, Cubase and Logic. The audio of those 3 are just as capable as ProTools..and with the better midi tools, they make a much better experience when using virtual instrument.
You took the words right out of my mouth. For audio post, definitely PT stands out. Even for straight up multi tracking, I can see why someone would prefer PT. But for anything with midi, particularly plugin instruments, PT has been lagging most of the other DAWs for years. Now that 11 is out and is finally 64 bit, we'll see if it is any better for midi/VIs.
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Old Jul 1, 2013, 05:08 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu Reel
Speaking of facts...

Let's remember that when Apple first released Final Cut Pro for a whopping $999, the only two existing video editing solutions were AVID's million dollar editing system used by all the professional houses and Adobe Premiere's consumer video app.
Many other pro NLE's existed back then (Media100, Discreet Edit, various Pinnacle NLEs, etc.,) and the old Premiere wasn't a consumer app anymore than FCP was. Premiere at the time owned the corporate/industrial, wedding and event segments of the market. Also Avid's systems were in the high 5, low six figure range. Much more than FCP or Premiere but definitely not a million bucks. You also have to take into consideration that even though FCP was only $999 you would still be spending about $15k total (on the short end) to build out a 'broadcast quality' cutting room. Again, still much cheaper than Avid but many times people compare the price of FCP itself against the cost of complete editing suite built around Avid.
Yes, they did. I used Premiere in the corporate events market. I didn't mention the others because the people I worked with in the industry at the time were highly biased to either Avid or Premiere. If you wanted the "cheap" route, you did Premiere. If you wanted to do it the "right" way, you did Avid. The other brands you mentioned fit in the middle to them and were simply overlooked. My apologies for being too broad with my generalization.

I also have to admit that my million dollar reference comes as second hand information provided by one of the many highly paid technology experts at that time, my boss.

Quote:
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Avid Media Composer did not exist, yet. It was created to combat Final Cut Pro's dominating influence in this "new" market.
Avid Media Composer has always existed (for a while there was also an Avid Film Composer which edited 24fps while Media Composer edited at 29.97). Avid released Xpress DV (and later Xpress Pro) as a lower cost, feature reduced version of Media Composer to take on FCP on the lower end of the market (they even had very feature limited, no-cost version called Free DV available for a while). The Xpress versions never really took off so they were eventually killed and Avid released Media Composer available as software only (no need to run it in conjunction with Avid's hardware) for the first time. The price was $5k I think.
My bad. I was thinking of Xpress DV. Thanks for making my point clearer


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If you don't believe me as to how broadcast business works in this regard, ask yourself why the FCC caved into the broadcast industry's collective will by downgrading the original FCC mandate of every broadcaster to broadcast in HD to just "simply" broadcasting in digital.
The mandate was always just a switch to digital, though it was a common misperception that it was a mandate to switch to HD. ATSC standards (which replaced NTSC) included SD. Forcing a switch only to HD wouldn't have made sense as 99.9% of the content would still be in SD.
I stand corrected on digital vs HD, and the point I should have correctly stated is that the FCC extended the deadline of the original mandate due to the industry's protests about the costs of conversion.

Nice catches. It's good to know that someone is reading what I write
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Old Jul 1, 2013, 09:13 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Digital Skunk View Post
Your ignorance is showing. Especially given that, as many here have said including me, no one in the high end market wants to invest in a product where the manufacturer totally re-writes the code and changes the UI and feature sets, leaving those from the previous version with no real upgrade path.

Apple may have bought FCP then tried to sell it, failed, then decided to keep it; but that didn't doom the application. Those versions were just fine, and held there own against Avid and Adobe. It's when they made that change that helped the pros, especially the ones that found little niggles in FCP7 that slowed them down, make the choice to move on.

Welcome to 2010. I'll wait for you to read a bit more to catch up.

No one here hated FCP1-7. Many, including me, don't hate FCPX. But, as I've said . . . .if you would just read instead of vomiting words out of your mouth, Avid is not some archaic app that gets trumped by a beefier version of iMovie; verified by some bloke who from what many can see hasn't gotten his/her feet wet in the post production industry.
I've quoted you in full, since I find it fascinating that you responded in such an aggressive manner and yet completely failed to address my point - instead bringing up several "straw man" arguments against points that I never made, and diving into personal invective.

"Beefier version of iMovie?" Since you're a teacher, for bonus points: what was the initial name and purpose of the new program that became iMovie '08, completely replacing the original iMovie code (to the consternation of many Apple users, at least initially)?

Again, your bias is showing. That's fine, we all have biases. But, your original statement that FCP "will forever be the editor that Apple bought from another company" is both false and meaningless.
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Old Jul 2, 2013, 01:01 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Blu Reel View Post
Nice catches. It's good to know that someone is reading what I write
You made some good points in a well thought out post, just a few of the details were a little off base. Nice change of pace from rants and personal attacks.
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Old Jul 2, 2013, 09:37 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by DanPhillips View Post
I've quoted you in full,
Quote:
your original statement that FCP "will forever be the editor that Apple bought from another company...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Skunk View Post
Let's not forget, Apple is doing a fantastic job with FCPX, but it will forever be the editor that Apple bought from another company, tried to sell and couldn't, then decided to do something with
Apparently not.

Again, read ALL of my comments, you'll find that the only bias I have is toward getting facts out about the topic at hand, and then mentioning my opinions which are founded on those facts.

You not only quoted be incorrectly, you inferred way too much from a snippet of my comment.

Please don't try to take the strawman argument defense. Correct your own inconsistencies first, and get the full story before taking the thread off topic. I've mentioned many times that FCPX is a good NLE, but (my opinion here now) it's not the end all be all and it doesn't trump Avid and Adobe offerings.

How about correcting the bias statements from the other commenters?

Again, your ignorance is showing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LethalWolfe View Post
You made some good points in a well thought out post, just a few of the details were a little off base. Nice change of pace from rants and personal attacks.
Oh how I do wish that could be the case for everyone.
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Old Jul 2, 2013, 09:50 AM   #59
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Samplitude dances circles around PT.

While Avid touts 'innovation', they promote new features that have been in other DAWs for 20 years.

Anxiously awaiting the Mac version of Samplitude.

(Yeah, yeah, I know I'm a troll, blah, blah, blah)

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Old Jul 2, 2013, 10:18 AM   #60
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I wonder why I don't hear about Samplitude more, seems like most PC guys use either Cubase or Sonar.
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Old Jul 5, 2013, 01:37 AM   #61
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Pro Tools 11 issues...

First of all, thanks to Music4Film for the heads-up on iLok and PT.

I hate iLok and the cloud, and this is exactly why.

I think it is interesting that Avid did a silent 180 on their threat to make Pro Tools 10 the last native version. That was flatly stated for months on the PT part of the Avid site, and it looks like they did a huge about-face and are now proudly touting their support of open native software.

There must have been a huge industry pushback.

But then there's the AAX plug-in issue. As of PT11, Avid has completely dumped RTAS and TDM plug-ins. So if you upgrade to PT11, and you have 3rd party plug-ins, then you will probably be paying more to use what you already have.

Not to mention what the issues will be for PT11 and the nMP.

One thing's for sure, I am paying a lot more attention to future-proofing.
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Old Jul 5, 2013, 02:37 AM   #62
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First of all, thanks to Music4Film for the heads-up on iLok and PT.

I hate iLok and the cloud, and this is exactly why.

I think it is interesting that Avid did a silent 180 on their threat to make Pro Tools 10 the last native version. That was flatly stated for months on the PT part of the Avid site, and it looks like they did a huge about-face and are now proudly touting their support of open native software.

There must have been a huge industry pushback.

But then there's the AAX plug-in issue. As of PT11, Avid has completely dumped RTAS and TDM plug-ins. So if you upgrade to PT11, and you have 3rd party plug-ins, then you will probably be paying more to use what you already have.

Not to mention what the issues will be for PT11 and the nMP.

One thing's for sure, I am paying a lot more attention to future-proofing.
There's been pushback for years. Many that use DAWs in a pro setting have either switched to another tool or they squeeze as much mileage as they can out of what they have even if they have the funds to replace it. We got off of TDM about 5 years ago. We did turn some LE rigs into PT9 and use it a bit to mix. I know guys that do high profile projects on 7 and we use a contractor that has a pretty robust 8 rig.

A couple of things contribute to the pushback and are the same things that caused us to migrate from the platform...

Cost of hardware/software. They also were not flexible with third party options.

Inconsistent or poor support unless you are high profile and even then if the issue is slightly out of their comfort zone of compatibility it may not get resolved.

Slow certifications of new hardware and OS upgrades.

If you use Waves plugs (Waves is another issue in and of itself..) and have WUP the upgrade should be included. That is, when Waves ships AAX. If how long they take to ship is anything like 64 bit support for other platforms I wouldn't hold my breath. IIRC McDSP is providing low cost/no cost upgrades for registered owners. And they are shipping.
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Old Jul 7, 2013, 04:31 PM   #63
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Old Jul 7, 2013, 06:52 PM   #64
Digital Skunk
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Originally Posted by counterbalance View Post
First of all, thanks to Music4Film for the heads-up on iLok and PT.

I hate iLok and the cloud, and this is exactly why.

I think it is interesting that Avid did a silent 180 on their threat to make Pro Tools 10 the last native version. That was flatly stated for months on the PT part of the Avid site, and it looks like they did a huge about-face and are now proudly touting their support of open native software.

There must have been a huge industry pushback.

But then there's the AAX plug-in issue. As of PT11, Avid has completely dumped RTAS and TDM plug-ins. So if you upgrade to PT11, and you have 3rd party plug-ins, then you will probably be paying more to use what you already have.

Not to mention what the issues will be for PT11 and the nMP.

One thing's for sure, I am paying a lot more attention to future-proofing.
I never knew PT to have so many issues. Even on the iLok end. I wonder why Avid stopped handling the dongles on their end . . . at least for PT that is. They've always done it for MC versions and Symphony, I don't know about PT.

The only dongle system we have in our building is a PT7 HD system with an iLok.
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Old Jul 8, 2013, 08:26 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by counterbalance View Post
I think it is interesting that Avid did a silent 180 on their threat to make Pro Tools 10 the last native version. That was flatly stated for months on the PT part of the Avid site, and it looks like they did a huge about-face and are now proudly touting their support of open native software.
Where specifically did they say that? Sounds like you were misreading something.
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Old Jul 8, 2013, 02:07 PM   #66
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Where specifically did they say that? Sounds like you were misreading something.
My guess is the OP was thinking of the announcement that PT10 would be the last version to support Pre-HDX hardware. They've since softened that stance a little bit, as in the PT11 FAQ:

http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/faq/Pro-Tools-11-FAQ

"In 2011, Avid announced that Pro Tools 10 would be the last software release to support the legacy “blue” interfaces. The time required to thoroughly test and develop firmware upgrades for future versions would severely impact our ability to develop and deliver new feature innovations. These interfaces will not be qualified or thoroughly tested for use with Pro Tools 11, and we will not offer customer support to troubleshoot issues. However, we will not disable these interfaces so if you choose to use them with an HDX or HD Native system please understand they are untested/unsupported."

This is all about support of legacy hardware, however - not "native" operation as in the original post.
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Old Jul 11, 2013, 08:53 AM   #67
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there are much better DAWs out there like Digital Performer, Cubase and Logic.Which is arguable that they are really needed any more with so many other "native" alternatives.It all just depends on how one is going to use it.
Well, I'm no musician. I work on Broadcasting and mixing down CDs for Mass Production. I open a session and start working on it and in my case DP, CB and Logic are dust magnets (no offense) Most of my work comes from unfinished projects made on those apps and is Protools the tools that fixed them. In my book that means Protools is the only tool to deliver a finished product.

Expensive? Yes. Fair? No. The Best? Hell Yeah.
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Old Jul 11, 2013, 09:01 AM   #68
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Well, I'm no musician.
Which puts you in no position to make blanket statements about which DAW is the best. As a number of us have said, it depends on the project.
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Old Jul 11, 2013, 05:12 PM   #69
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Well, I'm no musician. I work on Broadcasting and mixing down CDs for Mass Production. I open a session and start working on it and in my case DP, CB and Logic are dust magnets (no offense) Most of my work comes from unfinished projects made on those apps and is Protools the tools that fixed them. In my book that means Protools is the only tool to deliver a finished product.

Expensive? Yes. Fair? No. The Best? Hell Yeah.
Lady Gaga's last album was done (created AND mixed) in Digital Performer. I guess she and her producer are using what? A toy program?

The last few world tours of Madonna, Beyonce, The Eagles, Roger Waters, Prince, Motley Crue (just to name a few) were all run in Digital Performer. Every aspect of the show from backing tracks...so sound reenforcement, stage movements, video, click tracks, lighting, everything.

Film composers Howard Shore uses Digital Performer on all the Lord of The Rings and Hobbit stuff....Michael Giacchino on Start Trek films, any Danny Elfman scored film...Dario Marianelli, Thomas Newman, Marco Beltrami, All on DP.....Hans Zimmer, all of his stuff in Cubase. BT uses Logic Pro. I suppose all of these guys don't know what they are doing either right? Not really "PRO?" Haven't hit the big leagues yet with their software choices?

If you think ProTools is the "only tool to deliver a finished product"...because you have been delivered things by clients in other programs that were in need of "fixing", that is really more of a comment about your clients and not their software choices.

Right tool for the right job. Sometimes that is ProTools. Sometimes that is not. And to get back to the original topic, which is now really dead anyway, when you factor in a product like iLok into the mix...many of those other products become a much better solution when not having to deal with a company like PACE for their Avid/ProTools copy protection.
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Old Jul 11, 2013, 06:19 PM   #70
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PT 11 practical advantages

First, thanks to DanPhillips for helping to clear up the issue of PT11 support for native versus legacy gear.

I also think beelzebubba's comment on squeezing as much as possible out of the PT version you have is increasingly the case. I decided to circle the wagons at PT10 because of Avid's unclear stance on upgradability.

But I'd be interested in knowing the practical advantages of PT11 over PT10, so I can continue charting my upgrade paths. Anyone care to weigh in on this?
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Old Jul 12, 2013, 08:28 AM   #71
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Lady Gaga's last album was done (created AND mixed) in Digital Performer. I guess she and her producer are using what? A toy program?
Paul McCartney (Beatles) did an entire album on Garage Band. Does that means Garage Band is the best app to do produce/edit music?

NO.

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Which puts you in no position to make blanket statements about which DAW is the best. As a number of us have said, it depends on the project.
So, Only musicians can work on Audio Production Software? you need to expand your mind a little. I do a living using Audio Production Software and I'm not a musician.
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Old Jul 12, 2013, 08:58 AM   #72
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So, Only musicians can work on Audio Production Software?
Nope, didn't say that. Try reading my post again.
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Old Jul 12, 2013, 03:55 PM   #73
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I laugh everytime I read 'I just graduated and learned Avid and FCP7, and FCP 7 is better'

or some inexperienced person saying that FCP is the direct competitor of AVID.. what about Premiere?

It all depends on what you do with these programs

if any of you were actual professionals you would know that you would be washed up if you didnt embrace several platforms at once, and learn the ins and outs..

Some one on here said Avid is clunky and FCP7 is better.. what do you think FCP7 is based off of? FCP7 is 32 bit.. rendering, dropped frames, audio glitches, etc all sucks.. Yes Avid has its issues, and so does Premiere.. but to be a true professional is to learn on a few of these, so you can adapt and work with other studios..

Try editing raw RED in FCP.. HA!
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