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Old Nov 15, 2012, 02:00 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by snberk103 View Post
I'm not sure how one can argue that singling out someone, by the government, for public ridicule is not cruel. Holding the sign became entertainment. We are spending money to eliminate bullying in the schools, and yet you condone bullying by the court system.
Cruel is in the eye of the beholder.

Frankly, she got off easy. They should have put her at a school cross walk for a week and taken her license. Driving is a privilege and not a right, abuse it and lose it.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 03:15 PM   #52
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WTF?!?! She got off easy. She should've gone to jail!
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 03:21 PM   #53
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Cruel is in the eye of the beholder.
No, actually. In this context 'cruel' is in the eye of the US Supreme Court Justices. I wonder how they will rule on this when one of these gung-ho locally elected judges finally has their vengeful sentence appealed up to the Supreme Court.
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Frankly, she got off easy. They should have put her at a school cross walk for a week and taken her license. Driving is a privilege and not a right, abuse it and lose it.
I don't argue that she should have been punished, and punished severely. My quibble is with the sign.

Personally, I would have sent her back to traffic school. More time needed than standing on the corner. Might actually do some good.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 03:24 PM   #54
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No, actually. In this context 'cruel' is in the eye of the US Supreme Court Justices.
Um, no...

You find the punishment 'cruel' so it is cruel in your eye. The court decided this was a justifiable sentence in this particular case, they said nothing about it being 'cruel'.

I don't find it cruel, but think these kinds of punishments could be more effect than only a fine.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 03:41 PM   #55
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Um, no...

You find the punishment 'cruel' so it is cruel in your eye. The court decided this was a justifiable sentence in this particular case, they said nothing about it being 'cruel'.

I don't find it cruel, but think these kinds of punishments could be more effect than only a fine.
You are right - it is my opinion. I must have been a bit confused because a moment ago this discussion was in fact talking about the US 8th amendment, which is ultimately interpreted by the Supreme Court.

But, if we are going to ignore the 8th amendment, then yes...it is only my opinion. It is also my opinion that someone should appeal one of these sentences up to the Supreme Court as soon as possible. In the mean time, I will rest assured that while the US is still basing it's system of justice on a precept that dates back to the middle ages, I live in a country that has moved on. Along with the rest of the industrialized world. Ridiculing people didn't work 500 years ago, and it doesn't work now.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 06:28 PM   #56
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Yes... extreme examples... but that is what you are saying.
I can't for the life of me figure out why you are taking this "punishment" as too extreme.

The worst that can happen is that she might get a paper cut from the sign, or a cold from standing outside.

Hell, she had everything on but a full burka anyway.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 07:04 PM   #57
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I can't for the life of me figure out why you are taking this "punishment" as too extreme.

The worst that can happen is that she might get a paper cut from the sign, or a cold from standing outside.

Hell, she had everything on but a full burka anyway.
It's the principle. The State (as in the Government, not Ohio specifically) is not supposed to use the justice system for vengence, or for our entertainment, or to make us feel better. This isn't justice, it's ridicule. What's next, putting people on a horse backwards with a sign? I suppose so - since that was also popular 500 years ago in the dark ages.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 07:28 PM   #58
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She deserves to be ridiculed for driving on a sidewalk, because she felt too important to stop for a school bus loading/unloading children. She did this multiple times otherwise the bus driver never would have been able to film it.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 05:54 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by snberk103 View Post
It's the principle. The State (as in the Government, not Ohio specifically) is not supposed to use the justice system for vengence, or for our entertainment, or to make us feel better. This isn't justice, it's ridicule. What's next, putting people on a horse backwards with a sign? I suppose so - since that was also popular 500 years ago in the dark ages.
So your fear is that this is a 'gateway' ridicule?

Very much a stretch.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 06:02 AM   #60
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Idiocy at it's finest, glad she was finally stopped

Now to hear her reasoning behind her stupidity... that should be entertaining.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 10:13 AM   #61
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So your fear is that this is a 'gateway' ridicule?

Very much a stretch.
I think you missing my point.... the State should not be in the ridicule business at all. It is supposed to treat all citizens with dignity. What people do to each other is one thing, but the State is supposed to be above that.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 12:24 PM   #62
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I think you missing my point.... the State should not be in the ridicule business at all. It is supposed to treat all citizens with dignity. What people do to each other is one thing, but the State is supposed to be above that.
When in reality the state treats all citizens with a total lack of dignity. I'm surprised this doesn't happen more.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 01:33 PM   #63
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When in reality the state treats all citizens with a total lack of dignity. ....
Well, actually - I suppose I can't really argue that one....
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 02:43 PM   #64
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This isn't really news. No one should care. There are stupid people doing stupid stuff all the time. What it is, is humorous.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 09:10 AM   #65
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Eighth Amendment

"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 11:13 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by snberk103 View Post
Nothing, if your justice system is also currently burning witches at the stake, tossing thieves into the stocks, throwing debtors into prison, and believes that a good 'hang, quarter, and drawing' rounds out they day nicely.

That does not answer the question. What is wrong with the punishment in this case. She was not burned at the stake, imprisoned (which she certainly could have been for reckless driving), hung, or drawn and quartered.

She was made to stand in the spot where she repeatedly drove very recklessly and hold up a sign saying only an idiot would do that.

----------

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Originally Posted by snberk103 View Post
You are right - it is my opinion. I must have been a bit confused because a moment ago this discussion was in fact talking about the US 8th amendment, which is ultimately interpreted by the Supreme Court.

But, if we are going to ignore the 8th amendment, then yes...it is only my opinion. It is also my opinion that someone should appeal one of these sentences up to the Supreme Court as soon as possible. In the mean time, I will rest assured that while the US is still basing it's system of justice on a precept that dates back to the middle ages, I live in a country that has moved on. Along with the rest of the industrialized world. Ridiculing people didn't work 500 years ago, and it doesn't work now.
The supreme court would only hear the case to overturn an over-zealous appellate court. Unless some appellate court took the bizarre step of overturning the judges ruling. There is nothing in this punishment that is cruel or unusual. It is a community service.

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"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."
Thank goodness this sentence does not do any of those things. She easily could have been imprisoned. She was instead given a second chance. Driving around a stopped school bus and driving on the sidewalk are both reckless driving. Together they are easily enough to get you locked up for a bit.

----------

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Originally Posted by snberk103 View Post
I think you missing my point.... the State should not be in the ridicule business at all. It is supposed to treat all citizens with dignity. What people do to each other is one thing, but the State is supposed to be above that.
So then we need to take the orange jumpsuits off of prisoners picking up trash on the side of the highway. In fact, we need to get all those prisoners off the side of the highway. Wearing an ankle bracelet is public ridicule. Having to wait in line outside of your parole officers office is public ridicule. Those are just a couple of examples of people actually convicted of a crime.

By your standards, no one can be sentenced to anything but a fine or prison. We will also need to keep all trials completely secret.

The states attorney spends a significant amount of it's time and resources ridiculing people. People who have not even been convicted of anything. I am not sure what fantasy land you live in.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 11:19 AM   #67
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HUh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdobalina View Post
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."
Standing on a corner with a sign doesn't fit any of those.

Being embarrassed isn't cruel, unless you're a little kid.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 11:44 AM   #68
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That does not answer the question. What is wrong with the punishment in this case. ....
It was designed to humiliate her. To put her on display for public ridicule. To assault her dignity by making her a piece of entertainment. My examples were not meant to equate her punishment with those, just that her punishment dates back to when those were also popular. A closer example would be a Scarlet Letter, I believe.
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..
The supreme court would only hear the case to overturn an over-zealous appellate court. Unless some appellate court took the bizarre step of overturning the judges ruling. There is nothing in this punishment that is cruel or unusual. It is a community service....
I am aware that a case rarely goes straight to the Supreme Court, which is why I used "... up to ..." which I meant to mean through the system, up to - finally - the Supreme Court. I don't know if anyone has made a serious attempt to appeal this up to (meaning through the system, up the levels, until it finally reaches) the Supreme Court. Not that care, since it's a foreign affairs issue for me.
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...
Thank goodness this sentence does not do any of those things. She easily could have been imprisoned. She was instead given a second chance....
She could have been sent back to driving school. Involves more hours of "punishment" - doesn't put her out for public ridicule and humiliation. Might actually improve her driving.
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So then we need to take the orange jumpsuits off of prisoners picking up trash on the side of the highway.
Why? It's a safety issue in that case. Highway workers wear high visibility uniforms as well. Plus the suits have nothing to do with their specific crime, while the sign holding aspect of her crime was tailored just for to humiliate her - specifically.
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...
By your standards, no one can be sentenced to anything but a fine or prison. We will also need to keep all trials completely secret.
Then, I would suggest that you are missing the full implications of this type of punishment. Do you want to live in a society where judges attempt to find a personalized way to personally humiliate each and every petty criminal who comes before them. Because if this kind of punishment is left unchallenged, it could easily be adopted more widely.

I suppose I do live in a fantasy world. In theory we treat people with equal amounts of respect. We respect their rights to live their lives as they see fit. We support them when they are sick and down. Oh well. Back to the pirate ship, I suppose.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 06:48 PM   #69
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Standing on a corner with a sign doesn't fit any of those.

Being embarrassed isn't cruel, unless you're a little kid.
Ah, but it's the one thing that money can't buy your way out of.

And perhaps that's the problem he is having with this 'punishment'.

We need to clone this judge, STAT!!!!
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