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Old Aug 8, 2013, 09:48 PM   #51
rdsii64
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Yes
All bullets that don't contain any lead or lead alloy are monolithic bullets they are either solid copper or solid copper alloy
The only exception are Nosler's no lead varmint bullets who's core is a powdered tungsten instead of lead. These bullets are perfect for rodent control but useless for hunting game animals such as deer, elk or boar because they have little to no sectional density and only come in small calibers
if a company can put an affordable monolithic copper bullet on market they would creat competition and drive down the price. and there is the problem.
There is only one way to make quality monolithic bullets. That is to turn them on a lathe from solid bar stock. That is very expensive to do
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Old Aug 8, 2013, 10:35 PM   #52
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Yes
All bullets that don't contain any lead or lead alloy are monolithic bullets they are either solid copper or solid copper alloy
The only exception are Nosler's no lead varmint bullets who's core is a powdered tungsten instead of lead. These bullets are perfect for rodent control but useless for hunting game animals such as deer, elk or boar because they have little to no sectional density and only come in small calibers
if a company can put an affordable monolithic copper bullet on market they would creat competition and drive down the price. and there is the problem.
There is only one way to make quality monolithic bullets. That is to turn them on a lathe from solid bar stock. That is very expensive to do
From solid bar stock? I'm surprised, I guess I thought there was some kind of casting process.

Maybe this will push new innovation in bullet manufacturing. In the short-term, this means shooters might have to pay more, but what's the balance test of millions of birds versus the shooters who can't afford their hobby?
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Old Aug 8, 2013, 10:52 PM   #53
rdsii64
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The other option is a traditional cup and core bullet with a non toxic core. Such material exist but are just as expensive as monolithic bullets but perform no better than lead core bullets. Right or wrong, the world is a slave to money. The only way to get rid of toxic lead is to provide a COST EFFECTIVE alternative. Until then, the lobby groups will fight tooth and nail for their clients. When the solution is as cheap to buy as the problem, lead core bullets will quietly go away.
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 03:22 AM   #54
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The other option is a traditional cup and core bullet with a non toxic core. Such material exist but are just as expensive as monolithic bullets but perform no better than lead core bullets. Right or wrong, the world is a slave to money. The only way to get rid of toxic lead is to provide a COST EFFECTIVE alternative. Until then, the lobby groups will fight tooth and nail for their clients. When the solution is as cheap to buy as the problem, lead core bullets will quietly go away.
Or you could make lead more expensive. Tax the hell out of items containing lead.
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 10:43 AM   #55
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Or you could make lead more expensive. Tax the hell out of items containing lead.
My preferred solution generally. Lead is a very convenient metal, but, with a couple of large drawbacks. Tax it as lead at the point of refining or import. Its biggest very-hard-to-replace use as car batteries could be handled with a returnable deposit.

Once lead ammunition is more expensive than alternatives, people will mostly stop using it.


That is still not good enough in, for example, California Condor territory, where every single condor is precious.
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 04:41 PM   #56
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I prefer taxing at sales. Counterfeit/Chinese lead bullets could quickly become a problem.
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Old Aug 10, 2013, 02:07 AM   #57
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Or you could make lead more expensive. Tax the hell out of items containing lead.
There will never be a tax on lead. A bill to tax lead would never get out of committee onto the floor for debate. A much faster way to get rid of lead is to offer an alternative that is cheaper than lead. Make something cheaper than lead and people will stop buying the more expensive lead. Look at the auto industry. We have had the technology to put no lead batteries in cars for years. Why does your car still have a lead acid battery in it? Because its cheaper to produce. Try to tax lead and you will have more than just the gun lobby to worry about. The only way to make lead go away is something cheaper than lead.
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Old Aug 13, 2013, 10:47 AM   #58
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There will never be a tax on lead. A bill to tax lead would never get out of committee onto the floor for debate.
Are you making a general assumption that nothing will ever get better? When I was a youth, the air in some locations in the U.S. looked like the photos of the air in Beijing. And, I personally had trouble breathing that air. I haven't experienced that level of urban air pollution since the early 80's. Things can get better through legislative action and regulations.

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A much faster way to get rid of lead is to offer an alternative that is cheaper than lead. Make something cheaper than lead and people will stop buying the more expensive lead.
Yes, that is the faster and easier way to do it.

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Look at the auto industry. We have had the technology to put no lead batteries in cars for years. Why does your car still have a lead acid battery in it? Because its cheaper to produce.
If we have had a practical way to replace lead-acid batteries for years, I must have missed it. I'm not sure we do yet. There are safety and temperature Requirements for batteries that are very difficult for Lithium-ion batteries to meet, if that is what you are talking about. I'm not saying it couldn't be done today, but, only recently has this technology advanced to the point where it could work safely in these more rugged conditions. So, I'm not sure what battery technology you were referring to.

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Try to tax lead and you will have more than just the gun lobby to worry about. The only way to make lead go away is something cheaper than lead.
Legislative action and regulations work, despite what you say.
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Old Aug 13, 2013, 11:48 AM   #59
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A much faster way to get rid of lead is to offer an alternative that is cheaper than lead. Make something cheaper than lead and people will stop buying the more expensive lead.
A glance at the periodic table of the elements reveals a glaring shortage of suitable alternatives.

The only non-radioactive metals that have a density comparable to lead are - without exception - far rarer and more costly: Gold, Silver, Tungsten, Platinum, Osmium, Palladium, etc.

And when it comes to making useful ammunition, density is pretty much a "must have."
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Old Aug 13, 2013, 01:08 PM   #60
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A glance at the periodic table of the elements reveals a glaring shortage of suitable alternatives.

The only non-radioactive metals that have a density comparable to lead are - without exception - far rarer and more costly: Gold, Silver, Tungsten, Platinum, Osmium, Palladium, etc.

And when it comes to making useful ammunition, density is pretty much a "must have."
Bismuth is a metal with 86% the density of lead...
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Old Aug 13, 2013, 07:21 PM   #61
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Are you making a general assumption that nothing will ever get better? When I was a youth, the air in some locations in the U.S. looked like the photos of the air in Beijing. And, I personally had trouble breathing that air. I haven't experienced that level of urban air pollution since the early 80's. Things can get better through legislative action and regulations.
But look how long it took. In todays society, right or wrong we are slaves to money and that isn't going to change. If you want change argue in the courts. If you WANT CHANGE NOW, make the solution cheaper than the problem.
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