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Old Mar 28, 2013, 12:08 PM   #176
HobeSoundDarryl
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Originally Posted by cgsnipinva View Post
But then you ignore the documents and patents from DARPA where this technology was developed going back to 2001. Now we know China does a lot of stealing from the DOD - so this could be how they got their "technology developed" in 2004. I mean for the love of Pete - their new jet Fighter is a carbon copy of the F22.
If you're going to play that, it should apply to Apple as well. Did Apple entirely develop the tablet, iPhone, etc? See Kirk & Spock using very similar stuff from 1966. I appreciate that we can dismiss anyone else's patents (that work against Apple) with this kind of reasoning but then can't apply the same kind of reasoning against Apple patents when someone like Samsung is using something we credit entirely to Apple.

The only real issue with this patent is that it puts Apple on the wrong end of a patent dispute. If it was the other way around, we'd all be cheering Apple on and recognizing absolute & total validity of Apple's patents against the world. If a third party patent worked against Android and/or Samsung but not Apple, we'd cheer it on too. What makes it a "love of Pete" issue is that it affects Apple so it can only be complete garbage, invalid, patent troll, etc.

Again, if we're going to dig up arguments about prior art & prior concepts, those very same arguments should be slung against Apple innovation too. A patent held by Apple limiting others should not automatically be superior to a patent held by others limiting Apple. A patent is a patent.
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Old Mar 28, 2013, 12:36 PM   #177
cgsnipinva
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Originally Posted by HobeSoundDarryl View Post
If you're going to play that, it should apply to Apple as well. Did Apple entirely develop the tablet, iPhone, etc? See Kirk & Spock using very similar stuff from 1966. I appreciate that we can dismiss anyone else's patents (that work against Apple) with this kind of reasoning but then can't apply the same kind of reasoning against Apple patents when someone like Samsung is using something we credit entirely to Apple.

The only real issue with this patent is that it puts Apple on the wrong end of a patent dispute. If it was the other way around, we'd all be cheering Apple on and recognizing absolute & total validity of Apple's patents against the world. If a third party patent worked against Android and/or Samsung but not Apple, we'd cheer it on too. What makes it a "love of Pete" issue is that it affects Apple so it can only be complete garbage, invalid, patent troll, etc.

Again, if we're going to dig up arguments about prior art & prior concepts, those very same arguments should be slung against Apple innovation too. A patent held by Apple limiting others should not automatically be superior to a patent held by others limiting Apple. A patent is a patent.
No you are missing the point - Siri was originally a company that was created our of DARPA and MADE the software back in 2001 before Apple bought the company. As such - since there were designs and patents held by DAPRA - it would invalidate the Chinese claim.
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Old Mar 28, 2013, 12:38 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by maslan123 View Post
The two biggest and you can find this all over the net is Drop Down Notifications and Over The Air updates. Both on Android 3 years before Apple.

Even ZDNet did an article about it:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/burnette/a...5-updated/2295
Sorry, he was talking about Android copying Apple.
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Old Mar 28, 2013, 03:59 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by MacDav View Post
Wrong. Even if the Alphabet or Arabic numerals were able to be patented at those historical times, Patents only last for 20 years. So it would all be "Public Domain" and we would be able to use them all we want to. While the patent system needs an overhaul, not to have any I.P. protection would mean the rich and powerful could steal any invention and put the original inventor out of business. Great Idea you have there.
Yes, US patents lasted only 20 years back in 700BC....

And the reality is that the rich and powerful pay people (e.g. Apple employees) to make up any crazy idea they can and they then pay for a patent for it (which isn't exactly cheap for the lay person to just try and patent any willy nilly idea). What patents they can't create, they buy. Ultimately, large corporations end up owning every freaking patent imaginable and then sue the living daylights out of every two-bit Joe start-up company that wants to make a largely unrelated product that might use something "similar". Frankly, I think patent laws mostly hurt the small guys, especially since you just end up getting your arse sued in court even if you're in the right since large companies know you'll drown in the legal fees and that removes a competitor and it seems this is becoming standard business practice. If you can't win, sue them into legal cost oblivion.

Look at the guy who owned the web site name for Nissan. Totally unrelated use of the word (it is the Jewish month of the year, after all) as a computer site. He had to fight for YEARS to keep his web site even though his company existed FIRST (Nissan used to be Datsun when this company was founded). It should have been an open/shut case. Just show up in court and show the proof you existed first. Case closed. Nope. That's not how it works and it's why there is no real justice in the United States anymore. Public defenders are having their funding cut and so good luck getting a fair trial if you can't afford a high-end lawyer. You'll be in jail even if you're innocent. Based on all the DNA cases I've seen with innocent people in prison, I'd say it happens more often than you might think.
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Old Mar 28, 2013, 05:02 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by James Craner View Post
Sigh - Another day, another lawsuit. I am not saying that Zhi Zhen don't have a legitimate case, but it just appears that because Apple have deep pockets that everyone wants a piece.

MacLegalRumours.com.

Sometimes I wish these rumours stay off the front page until something more substantive is proven, rather than just X decides to sue Apple over feature Y.
Are you serious? First of all you wanted to say, they have right to get a piece. Because if it were another company copying Apple, you would say, they copied apple. Well apple haveing used theyr technology i think they should pay for this and its only correct!
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Old Mar 28, 2013, 05:11 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by maslan123 View Post
I am first to admit that China copies EVERYTHING - but i also know Apple copies things. The one thing i know for sure they copied is the Magnetic Power cable. It has been proven that this was in widespread use in China 10 years before Apple came out with it. Nobody patented it back then because it was just assumed that's the way things should be - so everybody did it. There are tons of devices from China that had this capability 10 years before Apple - but Apple applied for and received a patent for their design anyway in US.

All things considered though - China is the world leader in reverse engineering and copying something - hands down.

----------



His main premise/thought is correct though - during that 20 years nobody would wait to use the other alphabet - they would invent there own.
Well, thanks for your opinion, but the main premise I was referring to was his idea that their should be no I.P. protection at all. This is a really dumb idea. Do you disagree?
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Old Mar 28, 2013, 05:23 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by MagnusVonMagnum View Post
Yes, US patents lasted only 20 years back in 700BC....

And the reality is that the rich and powerful pay people (e.g. Apple employees) to make up any crazy idea they can and they then pay for a patent for it (which isn't exactly cheap for the lay person to just try and patent any willy nilly idea). What patents they can't create, they buy. Ultimately, large corporations end up owning every freaking patent imaginable and then sue the living daylights out of every two-bit Joe start-up company that wants to make a largely unrelated product that might use something "similar". Frankly, I think patent laws mostly hurt the small guys, especially since you just end up getting your arse sued in court even if you're in the right since large companies know you'll drown in the legal fees and that removes a competitor and it seems this is becoming standard business practice. If you can't win, sue them into legal cost oblivion.

Look at the guy who owned the web site name for Nissan. Totally unrelated use of the word (it is the Jewish month of the year, after all) as a computer site. He had to fight for YEARS to keep his web site even though his company existed FIRST (Nissan used to be Datsun when this company was founded). It should have been an open/shut case. Just show up in court and show the proof you existed first. Case closed. Nope. That's not how it works and it's why there is no real justice in the United States anymore. Public defenders are having their funding cut and so good luck getting a fair trial if you can't afford a high-end lawyer. You'll be in jail even if you're innocent. Based on all the DNA cases I've seen with innocent people in prison, I'd say it happens more often than you might think.
Yes, US patents lasted only 20 years back in 700BC....

Yes, it is a silly premise, I was only extrapolating his idea to show it's inherent weakness. You obviously have a hyper-negative view of our patent system. As I mentioned the patent system needs an overhaul to fix it's many flaws. My main point, which you seemed to have completely missed is that his idea of completely doing away with any I.P. protection is a dumb idea. Do you think it's a good idea? If so why?
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Old Mar 28, 2013, 09:15 PM   #183
cgsnipinva
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Are you serious? First of all you wanted to say, they have right to get a piece. Because if it were another company copying Apple, you would say, they copied apple. Well apple haveing used theyr technology i think they should pay for this and its only correct!
Where is the evidence that Apple used their technology when the company that created Siri did so in 2001 while a part of DARPA. Apple bought that company. There might be an argument that the Chinese copied Siri.
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Old Mar 28, 2013, 09:52 PM   #184
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Yes, US patents lasted only 20 years back in 700BC....

Yes, it is a silly premise, I was only extrapolating his idea to show it's inherent weakness. You obviously have a hyper-negative view of our patent system. As I mentioned the patent system needs an overhaul to fix it's many flaws. My main point, which you seemed to have completely missed is that his idea of completely doing away with any I.P. protection is a dumb idea. Do you think it's a good idea? If so why?
I think copyrights are sufficient for software and patents are best suited for hardware. Software patents are absurd. Imagine if CPM had had a software patent back in the day. Microsoft wouldn't even exist now since MS-Dos was just a total rip-off copy of CPM and clones were backwards engineered from IBM's PCs by way of the BIOS......hmmmm....heh, maybe I'm wrong. Software patents would have killed the evil empire before it began!

Too little too late in that regard, but now it's just mayhem. Just draw a rectangle and some do-dads circles with some labels about "Satellite control system from the iPhone" and you have a patent these days.
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Old Mar 28, 2013, 11:34 PM   #185
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And what did your Guru Steve Jobs say? Good artist copy, great artists steal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW0DUg63lqU
First, Steve Jobs was quoting Picasso, it was not something he personally came up with.
Second, Do you have any idea of what that means? When you copy an idea you aren't improving on it, you are just copying it. When you steal an idea or concept you can improve on it and make it better, make it your own. This is the way Apple operates. There were many mp3 players before the iPod came out. Apple stole the idea but improved it and made it better than the rest, they didn't just copy another mp3 player. Same thing with iPhone. So that is what Steve Jobs meant. The actual quote is "Good artists Borrow Great artists Steal". Steve misquoted picasso in that interview. The quote has also been attributed to T.S. Eliot. Okay, that's your lession for today.
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Old Mar 28, 2013, 11:57 PM   #186
Ping Guo
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Originally Posted by szw-mapple fan View Post
Did you read the modern inventions part on my link?
I did. Post-Qing there's like 10 inventions. Since 1912 how many inventions and innovations has the west produced?
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Old Mar 29, 2013, 08:24 AM   #187
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No way

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Originally Posted by thewordiz View Post
U.S. Patents (and others) don't mean anything in China. Or Korea. Why is it that we are surprised when Asian companies steal technology. They are RIP OFF ARTISTS! We give them a lot of our tech (to make for us) and then act surprised when they rip us of. Hilarious.

Lastly, I got news for ya. There are NO original ideas, at any one time there are many people thinking about viable solutions or products, it's just who get's them to market 1st, and who secures them with patents the best.

Plus, in this industry with especially non hardware patents, there are going to be a lot of cross technologies. Patents for tech will be hard to prove in the near future if we are to really have innovative application of said tech.
No way is SIri a copy of this. This thing looks like it actually works.. Not at all like Siri..
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Old Mar 29, 2013, 09:25 AM   #188
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I did. Post-Qing there's like 10 inventions. Since 1912 how many inventions and innovations has the west produced?
Yeah the main cause is probably the Japanese invasion during WWII and the cultural revolution in the 60s and 70s. They just made people's life miserable and killed innovation for 50 years.

by the way why is your macrumors ID Apple in Chinese? Just curious.

Last edited by szw-mapple fan; Mar 29, 2013 at 09:40 AM.
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Old Mar 29, 2013, 02:47 PM   #189
paja
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Originally Posted by Judas1 View Post
LOL. Good one, stick with the "American" company that manufactures everything overseas, while the "foreign" company Samsung has a huge plant here in the US.
I believe that Apple employs some 50,000 Americans whereas Samsung employs 3000.

Apple is also building a Factory to begin building computers within the USA.

The Samsung Factory in the US employs about 1100 people and I have a friend that worked there. While the pay and working conditions are good the Korean managers all hate Americans and always brag about how their products are the best in the world. They also lack any sense of humor.

Samsung also has a very shady business history in Korea and Taiwan. They are not nice guys.
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Old Mar 30, 2013, 05:48 AM   #190
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Quite clearly this is bogus.

Voice recognition is not a new thing and the idea cannot be patented. You need to have a method and code that you patent. Software patents are kinda redundant anyway, sure copyright your code is fine but patents should be thrown out now.

If the Chinese court system sides with the Chinese company what would that mean? It would. Mean we all think they're crooks which they are.

Also how does google voice escape this lawsuit, wouldn't you have to pursue all avenues not just apple here?

It's sad that the car companies have been suing endlessly for their rip off designs which are more than blatant, yet the courts have said time and again they aren't copy's and thrown out the cases.

I'm sure the core functionality of Siri contacting a server is different to this Chinese version which probably uses downloaded recognition. They will intrinsically be different systems.

Chinese courts need to wise up to how to actually legitimately.
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Old Mar 30, 2013, 08:58 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by coolspot18 View Post
And what did your Guru Steve Jobs say? Good artist copy, great artists steal:
Great quote from a great artist (Pablo Picasso). A shame that so many people are either too stupid to understand it, or deliberately misunderstand it.
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Old Mar 30, 2013, 12:38 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by maslan123 View Post
I am first to admit that China copies EVERYTHING - but i also know Apple copies things. The one thing i know for sure they copied is the Magnetic Power cable. It has been proven that this was in widespread use in China 10 years before Apple came out with it. Nobody patented it back then because it was just assumed that's the way things should be - so everybody did it. There are tons of devices from China that had this capability 10 years before Apple - but Apple applied for and received a patent for their design anyway in US.

All things considered though - China is the world leader in reverse engineering and copying something - hands down.

----------



His main premise/thought is correct though - during that 20 years nobody would wait to use the other alphabet - they would invent there own.
But what if they patented the use of symbols on paper to represent meaning. Now they own the written language and everybody else has to use hand gestures. Sounds absurd? Thats how broad many patents today are.
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Old Mar 31, 2013, 10:42 PM   #193
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Yeah the main cause is probably the Japanese invasion during WWII and the cultural revolution in the 60s and 70s. They just made people's life miserable and killed innovation for 50 years.

by the way why is your macrumors ID Apple in Chinese? Just curious.
Right but the majority of those inventions date back to the Tang and Song dynasties. Way earlier.

I lived in China for 5 years and created my ID when I was in Shanghai so it was the first thing that came to mind.
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Old Apr 1, 2013, 08:34 AM   #194
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Then what would they steal?

If they bought Apple, Americans will start stealing.

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Originally Posted by MacDav View Post
The actual quote is "Good artists Borrow Great artists Steal". Steve misquoted picasso in that interview.
"Copy" sound more modern somehow.
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Old Apr 3, 2013, 10:41 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by HobeSoundDarryl View Post
Pick a side and be consistent. If we can find fault with others who might have a patent over Apple because of historically-similar stuff, we should be able to find the same fault with Apple with historically-similar stuff. We can't fault this company because Alan Turing had something similar in the past but then not find fault with Apple vs.- say- Samsung in iPhone & Tablet claims (when we can watch 1960's episodes of Star Trek and see similar ideas).

We sling every possible negative at the patent holder that is not Apple but we will then defend every possible positive when it's Apple holding a patent. Pick a stand and be consistent. Either Apple is just as wrong when historically-similar ideas can be found or all other companies are just as right as Apple if we want to ignore history. Or, if Apple patents winning cases against others is wonderful, so it goes with other company patents winning cases against Apple. We shouldn't whine for patent reform when patents work against Apple but praise patents when they work for Apple. It's not a patent system for only Apple's benefit.
I'm consistent. But Apple and most large organizations are getting hit by patent trolls fairly regularly. And these trolls are rarely actually using their patents. In this case, this is an active company. But it has to come up with something other than both products involve speech recognition by an AI device to claim that Apple is copying them. The design part should be easy to see who came first and also isn't really important in this case since neither of these products seem fantastic examples of design. There is probably no chance that Apple is using code or algorithms that it copied to actually deliver the product. So what is the claim?

And yes, other companies specifically just copy Apple. We know this from their own internal documents. Apple is probably out there doing something the same. Don't you expect that something like "live tiles" will come to iOS eventually?
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Old Apr 3, 2013, 12:35 PM   #196
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Again, very biased views pro-Apple.

Yes, Apple is getting hit by patent holders (called trolls when they have a patent that might cost Apple some money). Patent holders got those patents by coming up with an idea and patenting it before Apple could patent the concept. It works the same way when Apple comes up with the idea first and then leverages that patent against others. But we- here- will never call Apple a patent troll- even when the patent is something that Apple hasn't developed (which is the other piece most commonly associated with "troll"). Whoever gets the patent were first; those who want to use the patented idea need to pay the inventor even if the inventor can only come up with the idea alone (and lacks the funds or will to take it to market). If the patent system should benefit Apple, it should benefit other innovators as well. It can't be a great system when it benefits Apple but a stupid system when it works against Apple.

Look up the Polish grocery store under attack by Apple for having a somewhat similar name and- IMO- a pretty different logo. Yes, Apple legal is sicked on companies as small and inconsequential as them. So yes, bigger corporate targets are going to be "hit by patent trolls fairly regularly" but it's not like those big corporations aren't doing their own hitting pretty regularly... including, unfortunately, little grocery stores in Poland who just happen to have a similar sounding name and a logo that is an apple but not very close to Apple's apple logo.

"There is probably no chance that Apple is using code or algorithms that it copied to actually deliver the product. So what is the claim?" should then be applied in cases such as the one with Samsung. There is probably no chance that Samsung has used an exact copy of the code or algorithms in Apple iDevices. That case revolves heavily around just design which you claim "is really not important" but it is important when it's Apple(s designs) vs. Samsung. If it has to be exact copies of code & algorithms, so much of all of these cases can be dismissed as each company should be diligent about not letting their competitors possess the actual code & algorithms.

And yes, I do expect something like live tiles and probably the keyboard smart cover to come from Apple eventually. While they are generally "stupid", "useless", etc now, when Apple rolls them out, they'll be "genius", "shut up and take my money", "I'm already in line" and "why can't they work with the iDevice I already own?". Then, about 3 years later, we'll collectively remember that Apple invented those features and ignore/attack/dismiss any evidence to the contrary.
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