Steve Jobs on Lack of Firewire in MacBooks

[dal20402]

Originally Posted by localoid

I'm still trying to find the "pro" features on the MBP that I would actually consider "pro" features desirable for "pro" audio production. When I compare the "pro" features found on something like the LiveBook Mobile Audio Worksation by Rain to those on the MacBook Pro, the MBP ends up looking like a toy.

Huh? They're different, but the Rain doesn't walk all over the MBP by any means..

The Rain has 2 extra Firewire 400 ports, an eSATA port, the ability to take 8GB RAM (vs. 6GB), a slightly higher-res screen, a crappy card reader, and... a modem .

The MBP has better video out (2560x1600 digital vs. 2048x1536 analog), digital audio out/in (an odd feature to be missing on an "audio" machine), a faster base processor, a FireWire 800 port (vs. only 400), LED backlighting, and a faster FSB (1066MHz vs. 800MHz).

Add to this the fact that the MBP is beautiful, while the Rain just looks like any other laptop, and... most importantly, the MBP runs a non-crap OS.

More ports is not the be-all and end-all of notebook performance.

[editguy]

Originally Posted by CrackedButter

No option? That is a bit of an exaggeration isn't it? Apple still sell the White MacBook. Its just tough luck to get both the Unibody AND firewire.

There is NO option if you want one with firewire that is not yesterday's technology.

[Tosser]

Originally Posted by dal20402

Huh? They're different, but the Rain doesn't walk all over the MBP by any means..

The Rain has 2 extra Firewire 400 ports, an eSATA port, the ability to take 8GB RAM (vs. 6GB), a slightly higher-res screen, a crappy card reader, and... a modem .

The MBP has better video out (2560x1600 digital vs. 2048x1536 analog), digital audio out/in (an odd feature to be missing on an "audio" machine), a faster base processor, a FireWire 800 port (vs. only 400), LED backlighting, and a faster FSB (1066MHz vs. 800MHz).

Add to this the fact that the MBP is beautiful, while the Rain just looks like any other laptop, and... most importantly, the MBP runs a non-crap OS.

More ports is not the be-all and end-all of notebook performance.

Screen Resolution (native):
MBP: 1440 by 900
LB: 1680X1500
(i.e. the NATIVE resolution is much higher on the livebook –*you know - the native resolution that is the most important on a laptop).

Firewire:
MBP: ONE firewire 800 port, using the Agere chipset
Livebook: Two FW-400 ports – using TI-chipsets.
– yes, the MBP's port is quicker than a FW400 port, in that it is FW800, but as it's using an inferior Agere-chip, it's rather irrelevant. Secondly, the LB has a second chip in the express-slot. Yup, that's right. And speed wise? Well, that's a moot point as well, given that the livebook has esata.

Video out:
MBP: DVI output (using an adaptor), VGA (using another adaptor), Dual-link DVI-output (using a third adaptor).

Livebook: HDMI (this also means audio out) and VGA.

You talk about the Livebook having a lesser analogue out. But it has both. It has a VGA AND an HDMI out.


RAM:
MBP: According to Apple, the MBP supports up to 4, not 6GB.
Livebook: up to 8GB. RAM matters if you work with lots of (real, not virtual) tracks.


Further, the livebook does have mic-in. It's true, tough, that it doesn't have a minijack for audio-out, except for the headphone plug (which is just an ordinary headphone plug), but pros seldomly use minijack plugs, especially optical ones. No, firewire, esata, PCI Express/express card is where it's at.

When it comes to your argument that it has faster "base" processor, I can't see how that's relevant. You can get the same processor speed on both if you want. They both top out with the same 2.8GHz.

The only thing the MBP has is, as you point out, the backlit keyboard and faster bus.


One could much better argue,that backlit keyboards and slightly faster bus doesn't matter much if you're not able to get the audio properly in and out of the thing.
The OS, then? Well, my clients don't care about what OS I use. They care about money, deadlines and quality of the end product. No more, no less.

And I'm sorry to say, you completely lost me in your fanboyism when you try to make the argument that pros should by the MBP because "it's beautiful". Really? Again, my clients really don't care. Neither do I when push comes to shove: I want it to WORK "beautifully", not just LOOK beautiful.
Further, I think it's good it looks like "just another laptop" – I really don't like to broadcast (yes, pun intended) a "steal me"-signal every time I use my laptop.

No, ports aren't the end-all of audio production on a laptop. But without the proper ports, chances are you won't get anything done.

So, I agree: The MBP certainly does look like a toy when compared to this thing. Hell, it even has a num-pad to add insult to injury.

Will it be my next laptop? Nope. It doesn't come with a danish keyboard, nor do they sell it in this country. I will be going for a Thinkpad instead.

[editguy]

Originally Posted by ansj64

The above quote really now gets to the real heart of the matter for a lot of people...they want to have their cake and eat it too. ...

No, they want a MB with functional features. And for an entry fee of $1300+ it a ver reasonable request.

[editguy]

Originally Posted by Tosser

Screen Resolution (native):
MBP: 1440 by 900
LB: 1680X1500
(i.e. the NATIVE resolution is much higher on the livebook –*you know - the native resolution that is the most important on a laptop).

Firewire:
MBP: ONE firewire 800 port, using the Agere chipset
Livebook: Two FW-400 ports – using TI-chipsets.
– yes, the MBP's port is quicker than a FW400 port, in that it is FW800, but as it's using an inferior Agere-chip, it's rather irrelevant. Secondly, the LB has a second chip in the express-slot. Yup, that's right. And speed wise? Well, that's a moot point as well, given that the livebook has esata.

Video out:
MBP: DVI output (using an adaptor), VGA (using another adaptor), Dual-link DVI-output (using a third adaptor).

Livebook: HDMI (this also means audio out) and VGA.

You talk about the Livebook having a lesser analogue out. But it has both. It has a VGA AND an HDMI out.


RAM:
MBP: According to Apple, the MBP supports up to 4, not 6GB.
Livebook: up to 8GB. RAM matters if you work with lots of (real, not virtual) tracks.


Further, the livebook does have mic-in. It's true, tough, that it doesn't have a minijack for audio-out, except for the headphone plug (which is just an ordinary headphone plug), but pros seldomly use minijack plugs, especially optical ones. No, firewire, esata, PCI Express/express card is where it's at.

When it comes to your argument that it has faster "base" processor, I can't see how that's relevant. You can get the same processor speed on both if you want. They both top out with the same 2.8GHz.

The only thing the MBP has is, as you point out, the backlit keyboard and faster bus.


One could much better argue,that backlit keyboards and slightly faster bus doesn't matter much if you're not able to get the audio properly in and out of the thing.
The OS, then? Well, my clients don't care about what OS I use. They care about money, deadlines and quality of the end product. No more, no less.

And I'm sorry to say, you completely lost me in your fanboyism when you try to make the argument that pros should by the MBP because "it's beautiful". Really? Again, my clients really don't care. Neither do I when push comes to shove: I want it to WORK "beautifully", not just LOOK beautiful.
Further, I think it's good it looks like "just another laptop" – I really don't like to broadcast (yes, pun intended) a "steal me"-signal every time I use my laptop.

No, ports aren't the end-all of audio production on a laptop. But without the proper ports, chances are you won't get anything done.

So, I agree: The MBP certainly does look like a toy when compared to this thing. Hell, it even has a num-pad to add insult to injury.

Will it be my next laptop? Nope. It doesn't come with a danish keyboard, nor do they sell it in this country. I will be going for a Thinkpad instead.

Very well stated.
For the professional (no matter what that profession is) what matters most is that the computer is a tool that needs to be functional. Otherwise, it's an expensive paperweight. I don't need to spend thousands of dollars on something that is just going to be used to listen to and download music, do a little word processing or surf the net (so that I can show off to my friends what a "beautiful" and "cool" notebook I have). I can use my five and a half year old 12" Powerbook (attractive AND functional WITH firewire) for that. I'm typing on it right now.

[ansj64]

At long last, a reasonable person....it should always be about the function, not the form...

Originally Posted by editguy

Very well stated.
For the professional (no matter what that profession is) what matters most is that the computer is a tool that needs to be functional. Otherwise, it's an expensive paperweight. I don't need to spend thousands of dollars on something that is just going to be used to listen to and download music, do a little word processing or surf the net (so that I can show off to my friends what a "beautiful" and "cool" notebook I have). I can use my five and a half year old 12" Powerbook (attractive AND functional WITH firewire) for that. I'm typing on it right now.

[ansj64]

I am sure they have studied the market and for all you know, there may be something up their sleeve, which is why they have taken firewire out....I thought fanboys always believed Steve Jobs is God and he knows what he's doing...

As for the Itouch Gen 2 argument, I agree changes can be made always...the assumption is...will it be easy to make the change. ANy engineers here who can tell everybody here how easy or difficult it is to add back the firewire port??? We keep on arguing this point and if it isn't going to be easy, then it won't be done!

Originally Posted by editguy

No, they want a MB with functional features. And for an entry fee of $1300+ it a ver reasonable request.

[vvebsta]

Originally Posted by ansj64

The above quote really now gets to the real heart of the matter for a lot of people...they want to have their cake and eat it too. ...

I HAVE a firewire port on my CURRENT macbook! How is this wanting to have my cake and eat it too? At the very least when buying a newer machine from the same product line I'd expect to at least retain the old features or have them replaced with a better one. Why is that asking too much?

[CrackedButter]

Originally Posted by vvebsta

I could care less about the unibody honestly. If Apple sold the white macbook with the same specs (nvidia graphics, illuminated keyboard, LED display) I would buy it in a heartbeat!!

It's 'I couldn't care less'. That fact that you could care less is telling me you do care but you could care less than what you already do, but aren't doing so. See how it doesn't make sense?

Anyway as I said, its tough luck, your choices are very limited if you stay with Apple.

Originally Posted by vvebsta

I don't know why people are saying the fire wire won't fit on the unibody. Just ditch one of the USB ports for a FireWire port. If you need more USB there are tons of cheap pocket sized hubs. What's the big deal???

If anything, I want more USB ports as well, why should I have hubs? And second as I mentioned earlier in the thread, the issue of Firewire could be because it draws more power as a connector than USB. FW is 7W while USB is .5W. So you're not just talking about adding a port, its the other bits to feed that port on the motherboard.

Originally Posted by ansj64

I am sure they have studied the market and for all you know, there may be something up their sleeve, which is why they have taken firewire out....I thought fanboys always believed Steve Jobs is God and he knows what he's doing...

As for the Itouch Gen 2 argument, I agree changes can be made always...the assumption is...will it be easy to make the change. ANy engineers here who can tell everybody here how easy or difficult it is to add back the firewire port??? We keep on arguing this point and if it isn't going to be easy, then it won't be done!

Actually, the real die hard mac fans are also the most critical who don't lap up everything Steve Jobs says or does.

[Eric S.]

Originally Posted by ansj64

I am sure they have studied the market and for all you know, there may be something up their sleeve, which is why they have taken firewire out....

What's "up their sleeve" is the MBP for $700 more.

[robanga]

Originally Posted by editguy

Very well stated.
For the professional (no matter what that profession is) what matters most is that the computer is a tool that needs to be functional. Otherwise, it's an expensive paperweight. I don't need to spend thousands of dollars on something that is just going to be used to listen to and download music, do a little word processing or surf the net (so that I can show off to my friends what a "beautiful" and "cool" notebook I have). I can use my five and a half year old 12" Powerbook (attractive AND functional WITH firewire) for that. I'm typing on it right now.

Well as a "professional" I do use the MB to download some music, surf the net and word process. However i also use it to;

Write business plans
Do PowerPoint/Keynote presentations
Edit and approve marketing requirements documents
Connect to the enterprise systems at work and run reports
Create, edit and approve budgets and forecasts
Approve time and project accounting
Review resumes
Schedule myself and allow my assistant to do the same
Run Windows via Bootcamp at Fusion so that I can access Outlook and other Windows only applications such as SnagIt.

Could I do the above on a $ 700 HP? Most likely but I'd rather spend the extra $600 to work on the computer that I enjoy, as well as having access to the best operating system. So its more than a bargin.

Why do you think your version of "professional" is any more valid than mine? Which do you suppose is the larger market?

[mjteix]

Originally Posted by CrackedButter

If anything, I want more USB ports as well, why should I have hubs? And second as I mentioned earlier in the thread, the issue of Firewire could be because it draws more power as a connector than USB. FW is 7W while USB is .5W. So you're not just talking about adding a port, its the other bits to feed that port on the motherboard.

The FW port doesn't draw more power than a USB port. FW is capable of transporting power to the connected device (up to 7W), that allows for the device to be powered by FW, handy when you're outdoors... Since the new MB is using the same power adapter, a similar battery and uses lower TDP cpus (25W vs 35W), it shouldn't be a problem to bring 7W or even twice as that to Firewire ports.

There's no question that with the new design (battery latch), Apple had to cut one port, the easy way was to remove FW, as it also simplifies the motherboard (no additional chip to control the FW port), and it is also a port less used by consumers.

A more elegant way would have been to pioneer the Combo Ethernet/FW800 concept that has been approved as the 1394c standard or FW S800T. But that would imply a reworked motherboard, additional costs, additional drivers and testing, additional adapters, etc...

Given that the Ethernet port is also less and less used in households (wireless connection to internet) as well as entreprises, giving this possibility would make the MB an even more versatile computer, and it would still not compete with the MBP (bigger screen, faster cpus, more storage options, Expresscard slot, etc...).

I hope Apple will revise the MacBook next spring to offer this technology, along other refinements...

FWIW, we are still at least one year away from USB3 and FW3200 could be offered next year on high-end computers (controller chips are being manufactured). USB and FW don't serve the same purposes. So I'm excited to see what (audio/hard drives/DSP) manufacturers will offer with FW3200.

[moisiss]

Originally Posted by Tosser

Screen Resolution (native):
MBP: 1440 by 900
LB: 1680X1500
(i.e. the NATIVE resolution is much higher on the livebook –*you know - the native resolution that is the most important on a laptop).

Firewire:
MBP: ONE firewire 800 port, using the Agere chipset
Livebook: Two FW-400 ports – using TI-chipsets.
– yes, the MBP's port is quicker than a FW400 port, in that it is FW800, but as it's using an inferior Agere-chip, it's rather irrelevant. Secondly, the LB has a second chip in the express-slot. Yup, that's right. And speed wise? Well, that's a moot point as well, given that the livebook has esata.

Video out:
MBP: DVI output (using an adaptor), VGA (using another adaptor), Dual-link DVI-output (using a third adaptor).

Livebook: HDMI (this also means audio out) and VGA.

You talk about the Livebook having a lesser analogue out. But it has both. It has a VGA AND an HDMI out.


RAM:
MBP: According to Apple, the MBP supports up to 4, not 6GB.
Livebook: up to 8GB. RAM matters if you work with lots of (real, not virtual) tracks.


Further, the livebook does have mic-in. It's true, tough, that it doesn't have a minijack for audio-out, except for the headphone plug (which is just an ordinary headphone plug), but pros seldomly use minijack plugs, especially optical ones. No, firewire, esata, PCI Express/express card is where it's at.

When it comes to your argument that it has faster "base" processor, I can't see how that's relevant. You can get the same processor speed on both if you want. They both top out with the same 2.8GHz.

The only thing the MBP has is, as you point out, the backlit keyboard and faster bus.


One could much better argue,that backlit keyboards and slightly faster bus doesn't matter much if you're not able to get the audio properly in and out of the thing.
The OS, then? Well, my clients don't care about what OS I use. They care about money, deadlines and quality of the end product. No more, no less.

And I'm sorry to say, you completely lost me in your fanboyism when you try to make the argument that pros should by the MBP because "it's beautiful". Really? Again, my clients really don't care. Neither do I when push comes to shove: I want it to WORK "beautifully", not just LOOK beautiful.
Further, I think it's good it looks like "just another laptop" – I really don't like to broadcast (yes, pun intended) a "steal me"-signal every time I use my laptop.

No, ports aren't the end-all of audio production on a laptop. But without the proper ports, chances are you won't get anything done.

So, I agree: The MBP certainly does look like a toy when compared to this thing. Hell, it even has a num-pad to add insult to injury.

Will it be my next laptop? Nope. It doesn't come with a danish keyboard, nor do they sell it in this country. I will be going for a Thinkpad instead.

I think both the Rain livebook and new mbp probably suck for pro audio for one reason..... no native Texas Instruments FireWire! Yeah, the Rain comes with an express card TI firewire add-on, but you still have to go through the crappy (probably Ricoh) express card reader.... which means that it is still going to suck for audio (native/on-board TI all in one chipset.. including FW and express reader... is the pro standard. Everything else is suspect.) Granted, this is only important if you have a FW audio interface.... but that is the "pro" standard. I don't know of any USB audio interfaces that a pro would use.... not to say that there aren't any, but FW is the port of choice for pro audio.

Everything else spec. wise is secondary. Video res. ... who cares? It's audio we're talking about. On-board audio (digital or not)... who cares? NO pro would ever use the on-board sound card (they all use external audio interfaces connected via FW). The Rain supports up to 8GB RAM... who cares? I would guess that most pros who use windows would opt. for 32-bit XP for stability as both Vista (32 and 64 bit) and 64-bit XP just aren't supported widely enough to trust a pro gig with (there are exceptions, but I'm speaking in general)... so that most likely means only 3GB of RAM would be available for the Livebook as opposed to 4GB with the proven stability of OSX.

The lack of acceptable FW on 99% of Windows laptops and the new MB/MBP is why I bought the older MBP (with TI FW and proven stability) for my live stage rig as soon as the new MBP came out. I had to settle for a little less power, but for my needs all the power in the world is completely useless without the right type of FW chipset .... and neither the new MB, MBP, or Rain livebook have what I need.

This refresh round on Laptops in general (on the montevina platform) has been really bad for those of us involved in computer based audio, as pretty much every laptop on the market has done away with TI firewire or firewire in general.

Here is some more info about PC's for audio from one of the most respected audio computer re-sellers ADK audio...

"All our laptops have Native Texas Instruments Firewire Chipset!
Not some add in express card that some of our competitors try to pull off as having TI chipset. Not only does this not fix the issue but it takes a most valuable expansion slot away.
How important is this? Extremely, If you want low latency performance! Nearly all Audio interface manufacturers recommend Texas Instruments firewire chipset only. Laptops with Ricoh, Orange Micro, ENE, Agere and other firewire chipsets will either not work or work pitifully."

and for the details, check this out....

http://www.adkproaudio.com/compete.cfm#laptop

This from a company that has a client list that includes U2, Beastie Boys, Keith Urban/Carrie Underwood, Peter Frampton, and more.... doesn't get much more "pro" than that.

The Livebook is marketed towards hobbyist musicians that just don't know better. Even if I thought that their hardware could cut it, I would just buy the same barebones notebook they use and save some cash.

[Compile 'em all]

Originally Posted by BenRoethig

It is our problem because it makes you forces you to make a very difficult choice between buying the Macbook and abandoning your investment in your firewire devices.

You are not forced to do anything. No one is forcing you to buy a macbook.

[editguy]

Originally Posted by ansj64

I thought fanboys always believed Steve Jobs is God and he knows what he's doing...

If you were calling ME a fanboy, you couldn't have been farther off the mark.

[editguy]

Originally Posted by robanga

Why do you think your version of "professional" is any more valid than mine? Which do you suppose is the larger market?

I never said it was, but apparently you think yours is more valid than mine! The MB could be, and was before, good for both. Nothing was taken from you. Nothing would have been taken from you if firewire was still there. You're the one demonstrating an elitist attitude. Or, at the very least, an attititude of "I got what I wanted, I don't care about anyone else".
And the size of the market is irrelevant when it's something as simple as a firewire port. We aren't asking for them to add a never before existent feature. We are only asking for them to retain a very useful pre-existing feature.

[editguy]

Originally Posted by Compile 'em all

You are not forced to do anything. No one is forcing you to buy a macbook.

Wow! That's deep. Sheesh.

[Belly-laughs]

Originally Posted by Compile 'em all

You are not forced to do anything. No one is forcing you to buy a macbook.

Almost 1900 posts, and you still don´t get it. Your head banging is clearly causing injury.

[3247]

Originally Posted by mjteix

There's no question that with the new design (battery latch), Apple had to cut one port, the easy way was to remove FW, as it also simplifies the motherboard (no additional chip to control the FW port), and it is also a port less used by consumers.

Well, they could have removed the audio-in port.

Seriosly, with the audio-out port supporting the Apple Stereo Headset with Microphone, one does not need the audio-in port to connect to a headset. For non-Apple headsets (or separate microphones), a simple passive adaptor is sufficient.

There are few users who really need stereo input. They could still buy an USB or *cough* Firewire adaptor for audio input (and maybe video input).

A more elegant way would have been to pioneer the Combo Ethernet/FW800 concept that has been approved as the 1394c standard or FW S800T. But that would imply a reworked motherboard, additional costs, additional drivers and testing, additional adapters, etc...

That would not really help. The physical layer of FW800T is completly different from FW800. You would still need an external hub-like-thing to connect to legacy firewire devices.

[Compile 'em all]

While you are at it you can also ask for a serial port, 2 extra USBs and a VGA connector. I have a scanner that has a serial port which I use once every 5 months. Apple can clearly make a design change to accommodate my regular needs.

After all, windows machineries have more for less.

[localoid]

Originally Posted by Compile 'em all

While you are at it you can also ask for a serial port, 2 extra USBs and a VGA connector. I have a scanner that has a serial port which I use once every 5 months. Apple can clearly make a design change to accommodate my regular needs.

After all, windows machineries have more for less.

You still don't get it.

You could use a Serial-USB cable to operate your scanner. Serial -> serial. Problem solved.

An "adapter" solves your theoretical problem, but you can't solve the lack of Firewire port with a simple adapter. Two different protocols...

[ansj64]

Then stay with the old Black macbook??? Why is it that it has to be the latest "TOY" when it doesn't serve your purpose anyway? Remember, it's JUST A TOOL.

Originally Posted by vvebsta

I HAVE a firewire port on my CURRENT macbook! How is this wanting to have my cake and eat it too? At the very least when buying a newer machine from the same product line I'd expect to at least retain the old features or have them replaced with a better one. Why is that asking too much?

[ansj64]

Sorry, Apple is not only a social welfare organization but a business. It is their business to squeeze profit out of every product they make. They can't cut the price to increase their volume else it impinges on their "ELITE" image...so they have to make the profit from somewhere else.

It's up to you whether you will use the Macbook or take another PC laptop which DOES have firewire ports OR stay/buy the older version Macbook for YOUR needs.

The only reason why a lot of Apple fanboys complain is because they want to stay cooollll...forgetting that the machine they have right now will still do the job for them nad it HAS the firewire port .

Originally Posted by Eric S.

What's "up their sleeve" is the MBP for $700 more.

[Tosser]

Originally Posted by ansj64

Sorry, Apple is not only a social welfare organization but a business. It is their business to squeeze profit out of every product they make. They can't cut the price to increase their volume else it impinges on their "ELITE" image...so they have to make the profit from somewhere else.

It's up to you whether you will use the Macbook or take another PC laptop which DOES have firewire ports OR stay/buy the older version Macbook for YOUR needs.

The only reason why a lot of Apple fanboys complain is because they want to stay cooollll...forgetting that the machine they have right now will still do the job for them nad it HAS the firewire port .

Sure, that's the only possible reason
Could it be that people will actually have to buy a new laptop at a given time, and they see this as a trend, and therefore do not like it?
Seriously, who in their right mind would consider it "cool" to have firewire or a non-glossy screen? Perhaps you're projecting the attempt to be cool?

[3247]

Originally Posted by localoid

You could use a Serial-USB cable to operate your scanner. Serial -> serial. Problem solved.
An "adapter" solves your theoretical problem, but you can't solve the lack of Firewire port with a simple adapter. Two different protocols...

USB and RS-232 are completly different protocols (although both are serial). USB and IEEE 1284 (printer port) are completly different protocols. USB and IDE/ATA... SATA... SCSI... Bluetooth... IEEE 802.11a/b/g (WLAN)... UMTS/HSDPA... VGA... If you can make adaptors for those you can also make adaptors for Firewire.

However, having native Firewire would still be useful. That's because you can expect much higher performance from it (especially if it's FW800) than from a USB-to-FW adaptor. And because of target mode, of course.