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Old Jan 18, 2005, 09:23 AM   #1
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Apple/Sony DV Collaboration = HD Movie Download Store


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Link: Apple/Sony DV Collaboration = HD Movie Download Store
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 09:25 AM   #2
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don't think so - not yet at least. Bandwidth is still not there for enough people to make it profitable. And cable companies are already offering this service (essentially) through movies on demand, and they're offering them at a higher bitrate than you'll get from a streaming service.

essentially speaking, if you have a TiVo & Digital Cable/Satellite, you're 90% of the way there to a download store already.
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 09:26 AM   #3
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H.264 Codec combined with deeper broadband penetration and cheap mass storage makes this very possible. Looks to be a shoe-in for 2005.
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 09:30 AM   #4
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you may be right. but I doubt it.
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 09:31 AM   #5
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when this happens, it's going to be soo cool.

but, being in the UK is a pain, because it means we're not going to get it any time soon - its at least 2/3 years away..

still, with SJ going on about the year of HD, it could still happen.

/asif
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 10:32 AM   #6
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When fiber starts to really take off in the US in the next 5 years. Then lets talk video. As it stands. The size of file needed to fill a high def TV is at least in the triple digit MB range which is no small download even for people who have a wide pipe to their home. That and like the iPod Apple is going to have to debute a killer app for video. So far we've seen nothing. I still want to know why the hell Sony's #1 was on stage at MW for a stinking video camera. When I read that on MR's low bandwidth reporting of MW events I just about **** myself thinking OMG Sony and Apple teaming up on the Music front!! Alas it was not to be…yet.
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 10:34 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asif786
still, with SJ going on about the year of HD, it could still happen.

/asif

Take anything Jobs says with a grain of salt....Everyone knows where his comment on "Year of the laptop" went. Take what he says as face value: Year of HD is the year everything Apple is going HD.
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 10:52 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiliconAddict
When fiber starts to really take off in the US in the next 5 years. Then lets talk video. As it stands. The size of file needed to fill a high def TV is at least in the triple digit MB range which is no small download even for people who have a wide pipe to their home.
Apple streamed the keynote to millions of viewers in High Def... why could movies not be streamed to homes the same way.
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 11:00 AM   #9
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Remember, Steve broadcast the keynote to millions of viewers in high definition video.

According to the article, "video using H.264, encoded at full high definition resolution (1920x1080 24p) [can be] played back between 6.8 and 8 Mbps at full HD quality"</i>

80.2.11 B (Not G but B) transmits at 11 Mbps. A person need only a simple wireless connection to relay the streaming video from his computer to their TV.
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 11:09 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COS
Apple streamed the keynote to millions of viewers in High Def... why could movies not be streamed to homes the same way.
i don't believe that the stream was hi-def, just the initial recording and display at macworld itself. most of us don't have an h.264 codec and there's no way apple could push an HD broadcast with another codec.

as for an iTMS for video... i don't think it will happen this year, but it is inevitable. american broadband usage is ~50%, H.264 seems to be tailormade for a tiered pricing structure (e.g. you pay premium dvd-esque pricing ($30 and up) for blur-ray/hd-dvd physical media, with all sorts of extras, commentaries and highest quality compression available. you pay $5-10 for an H.264 version with just the movie. maybe adding iPod video/mobile phone/pda playback for an additional fee of $2-3).
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 11:20 AM   #11
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this link seems fitting to the discussion:

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=842
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 11:36 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudbug
this link seems fitting to the discussion:

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=842
Who said anything about this being for the iPod?
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 11:48 AM   #13
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An interesting thing I don't think anyone has raised about putting movies on portable players is the fact that they would have larger file sizes and thus the movies would not be able to be loaded into the internal RAM. Wouldn't this be really hard for the microdrive in the iPod and other iPod esque players? I remember reading somewhere that, although you can boot from an iPod, it is not suggested, as it will shorten the life of the iPod. Also, that was why it was a bad idea to use UBS 1.0 to transfer songs to the iPod as it would fry the hard drive.
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 12:01 PM   #14
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Agreed... movies on an iPod are not only unlikely but unpractical.

I don't know why anyone brings it up at all. If anything, it would be like the articles says... streamed to your computer and relayed to your TV over a standard wireless connection.
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 01:26 PM   #15
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Yeah right, does one actually realize that HD movies are 10+ gigs in size alone. Not until the file size comes down this will not happen.

Streaming HD, right can you imagine while you are watching a movie stream you have some loss packets and the movie experience is ruined.

At present I do not see this happening, unless Apple and SONY have some great solution.

Streaming movies = bad idea on so many grounds.

Downloading HD movies via Apple(iTMS) or SONY (online store) is going to be a LONG painful process. I do not think it will catch on in the mass market since how many people actually have T3 connection speed (besides me ).
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 01:30 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maya
Yeah right, does one actually realize that HD movies are 10+ gigs in size alone.
With AVC H.264, 2.5 Gigs.
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 02:23 PM   #17
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With AVC H.264, 2.5 Gigs.
I find that hard to believe however if so, then why the whole push towards Blu-Ray and HD-DVD technology.

I believe they are trying to fit LOTR trilogy on to one Blu-Ray and(or) HD-DVD disc.
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 02:27 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maya
Yeah right, does one actually realize that HD movies are 10+ gigs in size alone. Not until the file size comes down this will not happen.
Did you not read the article? H.264 changes that. The file sizes will actually be approximately 2 Gigs.

To put this in perspective, Steve Jobs broadcast the Mac World expo in HD to over a million people. You wouldn't download the mosvie you bought from Apple... you'd STREAM it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by maya
Streaming HD, right can you imagine while you are watching a movie stream you have some loss packets and the movie experience is ruined.
Why would there be packet loss? Lets say this thing is true and Apple goes worldwide with this thing. Now lets assuming every movie is available at all times. I can't imagine one movie would be being broadcast more than 10,000 instances at a time. While there may be packet loss when Apple broadcasts a single HD show (MacWorld Expo) to MILLIONS of people... but to thousands... NO WAY.


Quote:
Originally Posted by maya
"At present I do not see this happening, unless Apple and SONY have some great solution.
They have a great solution. It's a new codec called H.264. Did you not read the article?



Quote:
Originally Posted by maya
Streaming movies = bad idea on so many grounds.
Perhaps you should present some of those bad ideas. The ones you've listed thus far are groundless.



Quote:
Originally Posted by maya
Downloading HD movies via Apple(iTMS) or SONY (online store) is going to be a LONG painful process.
Why would they make you download them when you can stream them?



Quote:
Originally Posted by maya
I do not think it will catch on in the mass market since how many people actually have T3 connection speed (besides me ).
While you would need a broadband connection, a T3 connection is massive overkill to stream this sort of video.
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 02:29 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maya
I find that hard to believe
its true.



Quote:
Originally Posted by maya
however if so, then why the whole push towards Blu-Ray and HD-DVD technology.
This thing isn't released yet. How would people know not to push other technologies when one hasen't even proven itself yet?
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 02:45 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by COS
<quotes snipped>
Have you seen this in "real world tests" or are we speculating on this happy world of HD streaming.

Remember you are guessing as to the traffic a specific movie might get, there could be many other faulting factors. This is not a few meg music file these are movie files. and Even if a 10+ GB movies content is now 2GB and streamed there is no "effective" way of pausing and replaying it without a drop.

I have watched the Keynote and not during peak hours and a few days after the Keynote was live. Yet still I have dropped frames and trying to pause and resume well that didn't go too well either. Forwarding and Rewinding was not a problem. Then again this could be the limit of the current QT technology.

Anyhow its too early to say anything in regards to this until its tested in "the real world". What happens if the stream is lost and all you got to see was half the movie, do you call in Apple/SONY to tell them that this was the problem, what if they tell you that the problem was on your end.

Too many questions, anyhow if this flies in "read world tests" then all the better.
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 03:27 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maya
Have you seen this in "real world tests" or are we speculating on this happy world of HD streaming.
No, I didn't personally test anything but I did see it in action. Assuming the demoers were strait up lying to us... I have no reason to not believe them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by maya
"Remember you are guessing as to the traffic a specific movie might get, there could be many other faulting factors. This is not a few meg music file these are movie files. and Even if a 10+ GB movies content is now 2GB and streamed there is no "effective" way of pausing and replaying it without a drop."
Check this out: QuickTime 6 features a new advance in streaming: Instant-On. Dramatically reducing the wait before playback, Instant-On provides broadband users quick access to streaming content. In addition to accelerating start-up playback, Instant-On also enables real-time scrubbing through on-demand streams using the time slider. The playback is updated instantaneously, allowing you to locate precisely your desired content.



Quote:
Originally Posted by maya
"I have watched the Keynote and not during peak hours and a few days after the Keynote was live. Yet still I have dropped frames and trying to pause and resume well that didn't go too well either.
Keep in mind that this is a stream going out to hundreds of thosands (at times millions) of people. Assuming this thing went mainstream, I can't believe a single movie would be being streamed more than 10,000 (and thats generous) instances at a time. That's a sinch for them to stream to you without concern of packet loss.


Quote:
Originally Posted by maya
Anyhow its too early to say anything in regards to this until its tested in "the real world".
Agreed. We're just talking about whether or not its possible or not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by maya
What happens if the stream is lost and all you got to see was half the movie, do you call in Apple/SONY to tell them that this was the problem, what if they tell you that the problem was on your end.
Same situation if your download from the music store doesn't come through all the way I guess. I would imagine that you are given an account that would allow you to access that stream at any time... over... I don't know... a 4-day time period? If it dropped off, simply access it again and scrub to the point at which you lost the stream.
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 03:36 PM   #22
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Check this out: QuickTime 6 features a new advance in streaming: Instant-On. Dramatically reducing the wait before playback, Instant-On provides broadband users quick access to streaming content. In addition to accelerating start-up playback, Instant-On also enables real-time scrubbing through on-demand streams using the time slider. The playback is updated instantaneously, allowing you to locate precisely your desired content.
I just viewed this stream and at first I was impressed, then the picture was still, while the audio and timeline kept moving alone. And then it timed out and needed to be rebuffed.

It seems it needs a little more work, however it looks promising indeed.


I wonder what this would mean for Theaters, will the movies now be streamed and a release to home users be shorter.
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 04:11 PM   #23
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i think we all know that an iVideoStore is going to come sooner or later. We dont now when it's going to happen, but it is..there's no debating it; its the next logical step.

I think it will be HD. There's no point using old technology. Plus I think HD tends to get us geeky types excited, so I would love it. Also, note how Apple's new iPod commercial is HD. Things are changing - I dont think Apple would backrack by using non-HD content.

Lastly, the Keynote WAS NOT streamed in HD. The projector at the Moscone Center was HD - that's it. The technology isn't present yet to be streaming in HD, and apple sure as hell would've kicked up a big press thing if it was being streamed as HD. It would be a big milestone..

So, iVS is coming, we just dont know when..

oops, one more thing (lol - SJ style): Jobs is popular in Hollywood. All the studios use his computers and software, all the actors use ipods, most use macs, and lastly, he is chairman and CEO of the hottest animation studio in the world. Hollywood is like putty in his hands - if he wants an iVS, he'll get it.

just my opinion --asif
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 06:09 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COS
Did you not read the article? H.264 changes that. The file sizes will actually be approximately 2 Gigs.

To put this in perspective, Steve Jobs broadcast the Mac World expo in HD to over a million people. You wouldn't download the mosvie you bought from Apple... you'd STREAM it.
No, they won't, and no, he didn't. H.264 will make movies in high def approximately the size of today's movies on DVD. That's 4 - 6.5 or 7GB, not 2. And the stream was shot and shown in HD AT THE KEYNOTE, it was streamed at tiny, low-quality QuickTime after the show. Unless you mean to Apple Stores or other locations, in which case you're still wrong—it was downscaled to SD and broadcast via the normal satellite network.

Quote:
Why would there be packet loss? Lets say this thing is true and Apple goes worldwide with this thing. Now lets assuming every movie is available at all times. I can't imagine one movie would be being broadcast more than 10,000 instances at a time. While there may be packet loss when Apple broadcasts a single HD show (MacWorld Expo) to MILLIONS of people... but to thousands... NO WAY.
They didn't do that. Did I miss the part where the QuickTime stream of the keynote took up more area than my PowerBook's screen?

Quote:
They have a great solution. It's a new codec called H.264. Did you not read the article?
It would be a great solution if the files still weren't too big for normal people to put up with downloading.

Quote:
Perhaps you should present some of those bad ideas. The ones you've listed thus far are groundless.
Actually, he's right, and you're completely wrong on every count.

Quote:
Why would they make you download them when you can stream them?

While you would need a broadband connection, a T3 connection is massive overkill to stream this sort of video.
Incorrect. 1080i HD as it is "streamed" between TV networks is 19.7Mbits/second using MPEG-2 and AC-3 for audio. HD compressed using H.264 is still 6 - 8 Mbits/second. A T1 line is 1.5Mbits/second. Cable at its ABSOLUTE BEST is 3Mbit/second. DSL is 1.5Mbits/second tops. Only when we have fiber to the premises (which Verizon is doing some limited test of) on a wide scale will this become viable. And even then the intro package which costs $40 a month is still only 5Mbit/second down. Maybe we'll see a service like this in Japan, where the bandwidth flows like water (seriously, 20Mbits/second down for $30 a month), but not in the U.S., at least not in High-Def.
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 09:06 PM   #25
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No, they won't, and no, he didn't. H.264 will make movies in high def approximately the size of today's movies on DVD. That's 4 - 6.5 or 7GB, not 2. And the stream was shot and shown in HD AT THE KEYNOTE, it was streamed at tiny, low-quality QuickTime after the show. Unless you mean to Apple Stores or other locations, in which case you're still wrong—it was downscaled to SD and broadcast via the normal satellite network.
HD has 4 times the resolution of SD, so for HD video to fit in the same amount of space as a regular SD DVD, the data compression would have to be 4x more efficient. So a MPEG2 HDTV movie file that is 10GB would compress to 2-3GB using the MPEG4 codec.
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