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Old Dec 14, 2010, 04:42 PM   #76
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My proof of God is events in my life, my feelings as well as evidence all around me. The Bible is what I believe to be the word of God. The Bible doesn't prove God's existence, it exists because He does; not the other way around.
What about the Koran? Does it exist because of God?
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Old Dec 14, 2010, 04:50 PM   #77
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Nope, not correct. They don't "receive word" that someone has been saved. It's pretty simple logic, really. Praying to God can result in divine intervention, i.e. a miracle. The only people who can pray to God are those who are not in hell, i.e. those in heaven and those on earth. If a miracle is performed after asking a dead person to pray to God, then that person is not in hell. Ergo, he must have been saved.
Thanks for clearing that up. It doesn't make sense to me at all though. If one can pray to God, why ask a dead person to pray to Him? And if one can pray to God could God not hear you and grant your request even if you asked the dead to pray as well? What proof is this that they were saved? It isn't.


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You should read your Catholic theology more thoroughly. A Catholic doesn't "need" to go to a priest to confess his sins; if someone is perfectly contrite, God will grant forgiveness. But God also knows that men are flawed and will not always be perfectly contrite, therefore he granted the Church the power to absolve sins in his name ("whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven") so that we can have real, physical assurance from a real, physical person that our sins have been forgiven.
Oh, so the church is in the business of forgiveness now? I'll let my savior forgive me thank you very much. Also God is as real as I need for my assurance. Even further I don't need someone who isn't any better than myself to forgive me for my mistakes. It makes no difference. The priest has no authority to grant forgiveness to me, only Jesus does through mediation with the Father. [/QUOTE]
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Old Dec 14, 2010, 04:58 PM   #78
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Thanks for clearing that up. It doesn't make sense to me at all though. If one can pray to God, why ask a dead person to pray to Him?
Why do you ask anyone to pray for you? Because the Apostles (and the Bible) tell us it's a good thing: Non-Catholic source.

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And if one can pray to God could God not hear you and grant your request even if you asked the dead to pray as well? What proof is this that they were saved? It isn't.
True, that's possible, but miracles don't happen all the time. In fact they are quite rare, and the Church has very strict guidelines and research for a long time to determine whether a miracle occurred because of the intercession of saint or not. Plus, they require two, and this situation you describe is not likely to happen more than once.

And again, it's a matter of giving real assurance that salvation is real and that real people have been saved. You might not need such assurance, but not everyone is as trusting as you and God is interested in saving more than just those who blindly follow, since they are quite rare.

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Oh, so the church is in the business of forgiveness now? I'll let my savior forgive me thank you very much.
Um, the God works through the Church, so God is forgiving you. You sound like the pharisees who condemn Jesus for forgiving sins because only God can forgive sins.

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Also God is as real as I need for my assurance.
Odd assurance, since you have no proof that God exists.

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Even further I don't need someone who isn't any better than myself to forgive me for my mistakes.
Neither do Catholics. Priest's don't forgive you for your sins. God does, acting through the priests.

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It makes no difference. The priest has no authority to grant forgiveness to me, only Jesus does through mediation with the Father.
So please explain the quote from the Bible I stated earlier (I assume it'll be very clear with only one possible interpretation): Matthew 18:18
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Old Dec 14, 2010, 05:04 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Macaddicttt View Post
Odd assurance, since you have no proof that God exists.
So you do not believe that God exists, therefore you need priests for reassurance?

I find it absolutely outrageous that a fellow theists uses no proof of God existing in their arguments.

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So please explain the quote from the Bible I stated earlier (I assume it'll be very clear with only one possible interpretation): Matthew 18:18
Jude verse 9 says, "But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said 'The Lord rebuke you!'"

If an archangel doesn't have that authority, how can we claim to have it?

We have no power ourselves to rebuke and no power ourselves to forgive. It is through God. Luckily when Jesus died on the cross the curtain on the Temple was torn and access to God didn't have to go through priest anymore. I don't NEED to ask a priest to talk to God for me because I can do so myself. Jesus is the mediator.
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Old Dec 14, 2010, 05:07 PM   #80
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So for God to exist you need to see magic tricks? Someone needs to turn water in to wine, heal a blind man or knock a stone wall down?

God doesn't work for you. He is going to do what He is going to do. You have access to His word, the free will to choose to follow it or not and ability to question it and come up with a decision.

You decide not to believe in Him or follow Him then that is your decision. He is going to go on existing either way so it's really no matter.

Side note: I hear Cris Angel has a pretty cool show on if you're into magic so you could check that out.
OK, first I'm gonna give you props for the Angel line. That and the webster one made me smile. But this whole miracle thing brings up another pet peeve of mine when it comes to religion. The bible and other such books (from all religions), all describe god or Jesus or some other holy man doing some kind of miraculous thing. Or god saves his chosen people from years of slavery. Or delivers the ten commandments etc etc. One could see how anyone who witnessed such a miracle (hey that blind dude can now see!) would believe in god. But doesn't it bother you in the slightest, that it seems that god decided to do all these great things so long ago and only for a little bit of time. Then, the big miracles stopped. Nothing before about 2000 years ago and nothing since. No seas being parted, no saving his followers who are being slaughtered etc etc. Doesn't that ring a bell that maybe just maybe, people made these stories up and that the reason the miracles stopped is because no one would fall for them anymore. I mean, people still believe that noah's ark is real but they would laugh at you if you said hey god just freed so and so by sending down a few plagues on their enemies.
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Old Dec 14, 2010, 05:16 PM   #81
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OK, first I'm gonna give you props for the Angel line. That and the webster one made me smile. But this whole miracle thing brings up another pet peeve of mine when it comes to religion. The bible and other such books (from all religions), all describe god or Jesus or some other holy man doing some kind of miraculous thing. Or god saves his chosen people from years of slavery. Or delivers the ten commandments etc etc. One could see how anyone who witnessed such a miracle (hey that blind dude can now see!) would believe in god. But doesn't it bother you in the slightest, that it seems that god decided to do all these great things so long ago and only for a little bit of time. Then, the big miracles stopped. Nothing before about 2000 years ago and nothing since. No seas being parted, no saving his followers who are being slaughtered etc etc. Doesn't that ring a bell that maybe just maybe, people made these stories up and that the reason the miracles stopped is because no one would fall for them anymore. I mean, people still believe that noah's ark is real but they would laugh at you if you said hey god just freed so and so by sending down a few plagues on their enemies.
The era of all that has ended. People healing the blind for example were to prove that they are a man of God. Inspired writers were to record the word of God. Huge miracles like parting the seas were to reassure people that Moses was in fact acting on God (what human could do that).

Now that we have the Bible completed we do not need those to prove someone is from God, we can compare what they preach to the Bible. We do not need more inspired writers because the Bible is complete. We do not need enormous miracles because of man of God will follow His word and now that we have it we can see if what He leads us to do is truly of Gods will.
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Old Dec 14, 2010, 05:18 PM   #82
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OK, first I'm gonna give you props for the Angel line. That and the webster one made me smile. But this whole miracle thing brings up another pet peeve of mine when it comes to religion. The bible and other such books (from all religions), all describe god or Jesus or some other holy man doing some kind of miraculous thing. Or god saves his chosen people from years of slavery. Or delivers the ten commandments etc etc. One could see how anyone who witnessed such a miracle (hey that blind dude can now see!) would believe in god. But doesn't it bother you in the slightest, that it seems that god decided to do all these great things so long ago and only for a little bit of time. Then, the big miracles stopped. Nothing before about 2000 years ago and nothing since. No seas being parted, no saving his followers who are being slaughtered etc etc. Doesn't that ring a bell that maybe just maybe, people made these stories up and that the reason the miracles stopped is because no one would fall for them anymore. I mean, people still believe that noah's ark is real but they would laugh at you if you said hey god just freed so and so by sending down a few plagues on their enemies.
People fell for the Golden Tablets story and that was fairly recent. And that religion has been growly steadily.
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Old Dec 14, 2010, 05:23 PM   #83
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Unfortunately for you the mind and body has an expiration date.
In all probability this is the case.

But I have come to terms with this, you have to turned to fantasy in order to stave off the encroaching night.

You waste your time and effort attempting to halt the setting of the the sun. Rather than seizing the day which you already have.
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Old Dec 14, 2010, 05:27 PM   #84
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So you do not believe that God exists, therefore you need priests for reassurance?
I did not say that.

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I find it absolutely outrageous that a fellow theists uses no proof of God existing in their arguments.
Because all of your statements of belief are equally ridiculous. Just because we happen to agree that God exists, your reason for believing so I disagree with entirely.

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Jude verse 9 says, "But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said 'The Lord rebuke you!'"

If an archangel doesn't have that authority, how can we claim to have it?

We have no power ourselves to rebuke and no power ourselves to forgive. It is through God. Luckily when Jesus died on the cross the curtain on the Temple was torn and access to God didn't have to go through priest anymore. I don't NEED to ask a priest to talk to God for me because I can do so myself. Jesus is the mediator.
A) This is a ridiculous interpretation of this verse. It seems one can twist any verse to mean anything.

B) So instead of explaining the verse I asked you to, you brought up a different verse that (you claim) contradicts it, casting even more doubt on your ridiculous views of the Bible.

C) I feel as though there's no point to discussing anything with you because you have such absolute faith in something with no substantive reasons underneath. There's no foundation for me to discuss with you, and you feel comfortable saying everything with such false confidence, that it's obvious you have no actual interest in discussion.
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Old Dec 14, 2010, 05:37 PM   #85
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People fell for the Golden Tablets story and that was fairly recent. And that religion has been growly steadily.
Don't get me started on that....
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Old Dec 14, 2010, 05:50 PM   #86
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Don't get me started on that....
Golden Tables??

Is that like chocolatey goodness??

Neither one is real.
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Old Dec 14, 2010, 06:01 PM   #87
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The era of all that has ended. People healing the blind for example were to prove that they are a man of God. Inspired writers were to record the word of God. Huge miracles like parting the seas were to reassure people that Moses was in fact acting on God (what human could do that).

Now that we have the Bible completed we do not need those to prove someone is from God, we can compare what they preach to the Bible. We do not need more inspired writers because the Bible is complete. We do not need enormous miracles because of man of God will follow His word and now that we have it we can see if what He leads us to do is truly of Gods will.
Thank you for the answer but, of course, it leads me to another question. Pretty sure we've been over this before, but one more time , please. From what I read in your quoted above post, you and others, do not need nor desire any proof of the bible. Some one once told you this was the word of god, you believed it and that's that? No proof needed other then the warm feeling you get in your heart when you read it? Even if we point out some part of the bible that is factual wrong (age of the Earth), morally unsound (how to properly beat your slave), etc.... all of that can be dismissed with a, well, that's the word of god so it must be true just CAUSE?
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Old Dec 14, 2010, 11:50 PM   #88
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Macaddicttt, the lack of real meaning is not the most compelling of ideas, but its attractiveness is not a measure of its likelihood. What if morality was just an invention with no real, objective, meaning? Or rather, why couldn't it be? (The fact that it is not compelling to you is not a valid reason)

I will recommend you once again The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris. This will give you a very clear idea of morality from a naturalistic point of view.
FYI, for anyone who does not know Sam Harris is an Atheist. This is just FYI, not judging his opinion.

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This is such a vague and imprecise statement that I don't even know how to respond.
How precise do you need? Name a church any church. Have they accumulated great wealth pushing the word of God? Then they are corrupt imo because no organization should make themselves rich in this manner.

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I disagree completely. In order for morality to mean anything, it has to have an outside standard to judge against. There can be no better or worse if there is no such thing as bad and good. If it is merely a belief held by an individual, then we would have no right to say to a murderer that murder is wrong if he believes that it is moral. Making morality such a subjective thing that relies solely on the individual renders it completely meaningless.
Morality is arrived at individually. The morality of a society is determined by the majority who hold the same views. For example death penalty- decided by the particular society.

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So we shouldn't teach our kids not to murder, steal, and lie?
Certainly you teach them. But they have brains. In the end, they decide if your morality is valid or not. For example n some circles, it used to not be moral to engage in sexual relations outside of marriage. We'll just toss that one.

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This is what I just don't understand. The Bible is not something you can pick and choose from and then let humans fill in the rest. IT IS the divine, exact, perfect and unchangeable word of God. If you claim to be a Christian and believe you are then you need to realize this. That statement that I italicized above is NOT biblical, is NOT what God expects and will get you absolutely no where in your walk with God.
You could not be more mistaken. On occasion, church based committees made up of humans decide what should be in the Bible and what should be omitted. Things like the Book of Mary and Book of Judas have not been included.

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THIS, imac/cheese and those who are interested, is a prime example of why Catholicism is not Christianity and is a cult. Following anyone or anything above or equal to Jesus Christ (God to dumb it down) is a cult. Period. The Pope is no better than I am. He sins, he makes mistakes, he has fallen short of God and the ONLY way he will be saved is if he asks for forgiveness and confesses that Jesus Christ is his Lord and Savior and died for his sins. All the Pope mobiles and fancy silks and chants can't change that fact.
A very interesting perspective regarding the Catholic Church.

As far as Jesus dieing for our sins, I regard this as religious mumbo-jumbo. First of all, Jesus gathering up the human race's sins, is a divine cop out. What happened to responsibility? Jesus was such a good guy and the Son of Good to boot, he was guaranteed a slot in heaven so it is meaningless to absorb all those sins. Secondly, how long did the human race remain sin-free after Jesus's death? 10 sec maybe?
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Old Dec 15, 2010, 12:18 AM   #89
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]
As far as Jesus dieing for our sins, I regard this as religious mumbo-jumbo. First of all, Jesus gathering up the human race's sins, is a divine cop out. What happened to responsibility? Jesus was such a good guy and the Son of Good to boot, he was guaranteed a slot in heaven so it is meaningless to absorb all those sins. Secondly, how long did the human race remain sin-free after Jesus's death? 10 sec maybe?
Most likely a nano second or less. That's not the point. The point is perfect love. When you love someone perfectly you do for them without doing for yourself. That is what Jesus did. He took all of our sins (past, future, present) and in one instance made them clean. Now we can be forgiven for our sins because the penalty (death) has been paid. THAT is why he is our savior. He has saved us from death. Do we deserve it? Not in the slightest. Is it humbling and mind boggling that the son of God would do this for us? Absolutely I do not understand why He would at all. But He did. And I and many other Christians who believe are forever grateful.
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Old Dec 15, 2010, 07:43 AM   #90
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Most likely a nano second or less. That's not the point. The point is perfect love. When you love someone perfectly you do for them without doing for yourself. That is what Jesus did. He took all of our sins (past, future, present) and in one instance made them clean. Now we can be forgiven for our sins because the penalty (death) has been paid. THAT is why he is our savior. He has saved us from death. Do we deserve it? Not in the slightest. Is it humbling and mind boggling that the son of God would do this for us? Absolutely I do not understand why He would at all. But He did. And I and many other Christians who believe are forever grateful.
I don't understand what kind of sacrifice is being described on behalf of the human race. It seems to be symbolic. I'm not speaking of Jesus dieing. We all die eventually. By volunteering to die, this was good enough for God to change his mind about the human race? If you believe all the good people's souls end up in heaven, then Jesus was going to heaven anyway. If you believe in heaven and that the party continues, just how much of a sacrifice was this? It seems to imply an exaggerated importance of our human lives. I say this because when you embrace the concept of souls continuing in heaven for eternity, that is really our existence, not the brief life we spend on Earth. It does not add up on a logical basis. No surprise there.
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Old Dec 15, 2010, 07:51 AM   #91
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If you believe in heaven and that the party continues, just how much of a sacrifice was this? It seems to imply an exaggerated importance of our human lives. I say this because when you embrace the concept of souls continuing in heaven for eternity, that is really our existence, not the brief life we spend on Earth. It does not add up on a logical basis. No surprise there.
In fact, if you adhere strictly to this interpretation, the logical thing to do would be to sacrifice your life as early as possible. After all, life on earth is but a pale, sinful and worthless shadow compared to life in heaven, so the sooner you get there the better.
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Old Dec 15, 2010, 07:51 AM   #92
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Most likely a nano second or less. That's not the point. The point is perfect love. When you love someone perfectly you do for them without doing for yourself. That is what Jesus did. He took all of our sins (past, future, present) and in one instance made them clean. Now we can be forgiven for our sins because the penalty (death) has been paid. THAT is why he is our savior. He has saved us from death. Do we deserve it? Not in the slightest. Is it humbling and mind boggling that the son of God would do this for us? Absolutely I do not understand why He would at all. But He did. And I and many other Christians who believe are forever grateful.
I'm reluctant to post, because I'm not sure that logic really helps in such discussions...

Anyhow - this all seems tortuously self justifying and self-referential.

Why what measure are people sinners? By god's judgement?

And the concept of the holy trinity defines jesus as one with god - not really a separate entity.

So for god (who defines sin, and finds humankind to be lacking) to send himself to get killed and therefore remove sin is one of the more nonsensical christian precepts. Except of course, you also have to believe and worship for that sin to be forgiven - christ's martyrdom isn't sufficiently 'cleansing' for the unrepentant.
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Old Dec 15, 2010, 07:55 AM   #93
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Most likely a nano second or less. That's not the point. The point is perfect love. When you love someone perfectly you do for them without doing for yourself. That is what Jesus did. He took all of our sins (past, future, present) and in one instance made them clean. Now we can be forgiven for our sins because the penalty (death) has been paid. THAT is why he is our savior. He has saved us from death. Do we deserve it? Not in the slightest. Is it humbling and mind boggling that the son of God would do this for us? Absolutely I do not understand why He would at all. But He did. And I and many other Christians who believe are forever grateful.
I don't see how People believe this to be a sacrifice. He is god, what did he give up by "dying"? He is immortal, everlasting etc. What's the sacrifice?
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Old Dec 15, 2010, 08:10 AM   #94
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I'm reluctant to post, because I'm not sure that logic really helps in such discussions...
Logic may helps those who are willing to consider logic, possibly someone undecided.
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Old Dec 15, 2010, 12:01 PM   #95
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I don't see how People believe this to be a sacrifice. He is god, what did he give up by "dying"? He is immortal, everlasting etc. What's the sacrifice?
An immortal God died and rose again. The penalty for sin is death right. Jesus who had never sinned died. He could of just risen back to Heaven without pain or suffering, but he didn't. He suffered pain and death by His choice for us. We can't choose to live forever. Our bodies shut down, we die. He could of. Yet he decided to die. The awesome thing though is that he rose again. He was "born again" just like we can be through Christ Himself. That although our bodies may die we can rise again and live with God; this is what Jesus did when he rose again and ascended into Heaven.

tl;dr An immortal being sacrificed His immortality for those who denied Him. He forgave us for our sinful ways as long as we believe in Him and that he died for us. It's the greatest sacrifice ever.
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Old Dec 15, 2010, 12:21 PM   #96
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No matter how many times you repeat this, it still makes no sense.

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An immortal God died and rose again.
But he is 'God' not 'a god'. And he didn't die, he returned.

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The penalty for sin is death right.
Says who? The vengeful god of revelations?

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Jesus who had never sinned died. He could of just risen back to Heaven without pain or suffering, but he didn't. He suffered pain and death by His choice for us.
But jesus is god, and god defines sin. God also defines pain and suffering. This seems like an empty piece of stage management, not some significant and difficult event.

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We can't choose to live forever. Our bodies shut down, we die. He could of. Yet he decided to die. The awesome thing though is that he rose again.
Well he didn't die then, did he? Colour me unimpressed.

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He was "born again" just like we can be through Christ Himself. That although our bodies may die we can rise again and live with God; this is what Jesus did when he rose again and ascended into Heaven.
And what hoops does one have to jump through in order to do that?

Prostrate oneself to a vain and egotistical god?

Apologise to a vengeful god for one's sins?

In this context, god's 'Love' appears to be defined as the absence of his own judgemental punishment. And, what payment do we have to give for being spared? A lifetime polishing his great ego?
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Old Dec 15, 2010, 12:39 PM   #97
renewed
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Originally Posted by firestarter View Post
No matter how many times you repeat this, it still makes no sense.



But he is 'God' not 'a god'. And he didn't die, he returned.
To die is to cease living. He is no longer dead but he did die.



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Says who? The vengeful god of revelations?
And the loving God of the Gospel.


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But jesus is god, and god defines sin. God also defines pain and suffering. This seems like an empty piece of stage management, not some significant and difficult event.
Hanging on a cross feeling the pain of everyones sin at once, the pain of hanging there by nails, speared, bleeding from thrashings and the pain of carrying your own cross, dehydration etc all the while knowing that at any second you could blink and place every soldier on their own cross, heal yourself and be relieved of pain yet you don't because the prophecy must be fulfilled for the love of mankind. Yeah seems easy.


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Well he didn't die then, did he? Colour me unimpressed.
The impressive part is that he rose again. You try it.


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And what hoops does one have to jump through in order to do that?

Prostrate oneself to a vain and egotistical god?

Apologise to a vengeful god for one's sins?

In this context, god's 'Love' appears to be defined as the absence of his own judgemental punishment. And, what payment do we have to give for being spared? A lifetime polishing his great ego?
A lifetime of worshiping the God who lives and loves in a perfect body with others who love Him.

Look I am saved and I can't be thankful enough. I have felt the love of God in my life and I am forever grateful to Him. I can't wait for a day when all the distractions of the world are gone with and I get to forever worship Him.

If this doesn't sound appealing to you and you are perfectly content with what you have then fine. I am not selling anything and you don't have to buy in to it. I'm happy that you are content with where you are at in your life and I hope it's an amazing life.
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Old Dec 15, 2010, 12:50 PM   #98
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I can't wait for a day when all the distractions of the world are gone with and I get to forever worship Him.
That's kind of sad. Aren't there enough fantastic things in this world to satisfy you, rather than just waiting to get to the next?

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If this doesn't sound appealing to you and you are perfectly content with what you have then fine. I am not selling anything and you don't have to buy in to it. I'm happy that you are content with where you are at in your life and I hope it's an amazing life.
Yeah, the problem is that your vengeful god is waiting to toast me in sulphurous flames when I do die, since I haven't done the necessary worshipping and apologising.
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Old Dec 15, 2010, 12:57 PM   #99
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Yeah, the problem is that your vengeful god is waiting to toast me in sulphurous flames when I do die, since I haven't done the necessary worshipping and apologising.
He isn't really, you know.
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Old Dec 15, 2010, 01:00 PM   #100
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Yeah, the problem is that your vengeful god is waiting to toast me in sulphurous flames when I do die, since I haven't done the necessary worshipping and apologising.
George Carlin said it best:

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Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you.
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