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Old Apr 22, 2011, 10:15 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by bassfingers View Post
i had an english teacher who was a german exchange student, and she said while growing up, that america was viewed as this wonder promise land of opportunity. This america hating fest has just recently picked up steam.

Personally, I believe that as long as we keep trying to become europe (which will always fail because we're too big, and too full of republicans) people will continue to hate us.

But if we go back to our roots and embrace personal responsibility, the ensuing prosperity, and "you get what you work for" quality of america will regenerate the respect we once had

IMO
America hating picked up steam with the interventionist foreign policies of the 1960s and beyond. The EU is bigger than the US so it must be the Republicans.
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Old Apr 22, 2011, 10:35 AM   #127
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If national pride is the Republican agenda, then i guess i'll be voting republican again in 2012.
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Old Apr 22, 2011, 12:26 PM   #128
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If national pride is the Republican agenda, then i guess i'll be voting republican again in 2012.
Pride is a sin. You've got to expect more than that...
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Old Apr 23, 2011, 11:50 AM   #129
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If national pride is the Republican agenda, then i guess i'll be voting republican again in 2012.
If fascism comes to America, it will come with the label of National Pride.

(Paraphrased from a quote attributed to, variously, Sinclair Lewis or Huey Long)
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Old May 12, 2011, 11:52 AM   #130
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I was listening to Vermont's Independent Senator Burnie Sanders speak on MSNBC last night and what he says sounds good to me. In a nut shell, to get our of our current predicament we are going to have to share the pain, cutting spending and increasing taxes. This means that the wealthy and large corporations are going to have to pay their fair share. Now the problem (that most in this forum realize) is what the GOP considers "fair". They think it is fair that the wealthy and large multinational corporations pay very little, that social programs will be erradicated, and most revenue to be raised will be on the backs of the middle class and poor.

I just wish we could help a lot of the conservative minded who fall in the range of low-middle income see that the Greedy Old Party is not really their friends. In the GOP big view, they like the rest of us average citizens are expendable.
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Old May 12, 2011, 12:42 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
I was listening to Vermont's Independent Senator Burnie Sanders speak on MSNBC last night and what he says sounds good to me. In a nut shell, to get our of our current predicament we are going to have to share the pain, cutting spending and increasing taxes. This means that the wealthy and large corporations are going to have to pay their fair share. Now the problem (that most in this forum realize) is what the GOP considers "fair". They think it is fair that the wealthy and large multinational corporations pay very little, that social programs will be erradicated, and most revenue to be raised will be on the backs of the middle class and poor.

I just wish we could help a lot of the conservative minded who fall in the range of low-middle income see that the Greedy Old Party is not really their friends. In the GOP big view, they like the rest of us average citizens are expendable.
Quote:
The wealthiest 1 percent of the population earn 19 per*cent of the income but pay 37 percent of the income tax. The top 10 percent pay 68 percent of the tab. Meanwhile, the bottom 50 percent—those below the median income level—now earn 13 percent of the income but pay just 3 percent of the taxes.
Hmmm... 50 percent of the population getting a free ride while 1% of the population is paying almost half of the bill?

Sob stories aside, common sense tells me that our current system is more than fair.

Oh, and calling bernie sanders "independent" is almost as bad as calling Ron Paul a democrat...

So, back to your ridiculous post
Quote:
They think it is fair that the wealthy and large multinational corporations pay very little, that social programs will be erradicated, and most revenue to be raised will be on the backs of the middle class and poor.
If the top 10% of income earners are already paying about 70% of the federal tax burden, how, exactly, do you come up with
Quote:
They think it is fair that the wealthy [...] pay very little
Now excuse me, but I sure as ***** fall into the bottom tax bracket at this point in my life. Now why do I vote conservative typically? Because I feel that no one "deserves" anything from their neighbor. Because I personally believe that I do not owe anybody a single thing other than to not actively harm them. Because I am continually flabbergasted by the knee-jerk nanny-state laws typically pushed by liberals (An alcoholic energy drink? Good heavens NO! We MUST BAN! because WE KNOW WHATS BEST!)
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Old May 12, 2011, 01:05 PM   #132
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Now excuse me, but I sure as ***** fall into the bottom tax bracket at this point in my life. Now why do I vote conservative typically? Because I feel that no one "deserves" anything from their neighbor. Because I personally believe that I do not owe anybody a single thing other than to not actively harm them.
Really? Did you go to public school or a state university? If you did/are, I'd say you owe others quite a bit, and that's just for starters. Don't get me going on this.

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Originally Posted by MattSepeta View Post
Because I am continually flabbergasted by the knee-jerk nanny-state laws typically pushed by liberals (An alcoholic energy drink? Good heavens NO! We MUST BAN! because WE KNOW WHATS BEST!)
You're going to argue about a stupid energy drink when conservatives try to ban gay marriage, a woman's right to choose, drugs, amongst other things? You've got some nerve. Talk about a nanny state.
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Old May 12, 2011, 01:12 PM   #133
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Really? Did you go to public school or a state university? If you did/are, I'd say you owe others quite a bit, and that's just for starters.
Oh please. Of course I went to a public schools. I support public schools. I am talking more on a ideological level here. The level that Huntn demonstrated with the mindset that "The rich are not paying enough, even though they already pay far more than is "fair". That is what I mean when I say "No one owes anyone anything". Like I said earlier, I don't make much money. Not much at all. Yet I have absolutely no problem with Guy "X" making 9999 billion a year. It does not effect me. I do not want him to pay more, he is already paying far more than I am.


Quote:
You're going to argue aboout a stupid energy drink when conservatives try to ban gay marriage, a woman's right to choose, drugs, amongst other things. You've got some nerve. Talk about a nanny state.
you have got "some nerve" taking it upon yourself to judge which issues I feel passionately about. Not to mention, you seem to have skipped over my past in these boards, constantly denouncing the republican social issues.

EDIT: You also fail to address the factual figures I laid out
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Old May 12, 2011, 01:17 PM   #134
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Oh please. Of course I went to a public schools. I support public schools. I am talking more on a ideological level here. The level that Huntn demonstrated with the mindset that "The rich are not paying enough, even though they already pay far more than is "fair". That is what I mean when I say "No one owes anyone anything". Like I said earlier, I don't make much money. Not much at all. Yet I have absolutely no problem with Guy "X" making 9999 billion a year. It does not effect me. I do not want him to pay more, he is already paying far more than I am.
He is not paying more of a percentage of his income than people in lower brackets. You know this. It's been proven to you a million times on these boards. But yet, you keep using these goofy stats because the seem to support your POV.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MattSepeta View Post
you have got "some nerve" taking it upon yourself to judge which issues I feel passionately about. Not to mention, you seem to have skipped over my past in these boards, constantly denouncing the republican social issues.
You obviously show what you care more about with your vote, now don't you? Energy drinks are obviously much more important to you. It's not your words that count. It's your actions.
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Old May 12, 2011, 01:20 PM   #135
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Yet I have absolutely no problem with Guy "X" making 9999 billion a year. It does not effect me.
How do you know it doesn't effect you?
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Old May 12, 2011, 01:24 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by leekohler View Post
He is not paying more of a percentage of his income than people in lower brackets. You know this. It's been proven to you a million times on these boards. But yet, you keep using these goofy stats because the seem to support your POV.
I can not argue that fact that you lay out, just as you can not argue mine. I can only argue which system I think is right. And for the record, I am fully in support of a flat tax with the leftovers made up with various excise taxes.


Quote:
You obviously show what you care more about with your vote, now don't you?
Yes.

-I care about being able to keep your earnings whether or not your neighbor thinks you earn to much.

-I care about the rights and responsibilities that go along with being free, such as being able to not wear your seatbelt.

-Being able to arm yourself.

-I care about states being able to govern themselves rather than bending and abiding to a monolithic federal government.

-I care about the right to work

-I care about a strong defense (Although we should certainly not be in all these countries)


Would I like it if the "right" embraced the gay stuff? Of course. I would love nothing else than to see that.

Quote:
You obviously show what you care more about with your vote, now don't you? Energy drinks are obviously much more important to you. It's not your words that count. It's your actions.
Like it or not, I simply think that my neighbors civil right to keep his earnings, my civil right to drink an alcoholic energy drink, my civil right to keep a weapon in my car, my civil right to etc... Is just as important as your civil rights to get married or serve.

Also, I think it is incredibly disingenuous and low to throw around zero-sum accusations like you did.
"Well, you voted democratic? You must automatically support banning guns! Oh, well you DO support firearm ownership (as I know for a fact you DO)? Well, its your words, not your actions pal!"

See?
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Old May 12, 2011, 01:29 PM   #137
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-I care about being able to keep your earnings whether or not your neighbor thinks you earn to much.

There you go again, trying to paint me as a greedy evil money-grubbing bastard, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Irony...

If you get to keep an additional 5% of your income, but you put the country deeper into debt, and that results in your children and grandchildren having to pay a lot more, how is that a good thing?

If you get to keep an additional 5% of your income, but someone dies, is that a good thing?

(How is allowing a company to sell you a product that can kill you a civil right? If you want caffeine and alcohol, make a cocktail. The energy drinks+booze have a dangerous combination that are marketed to younger binge drinkers.)
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Old May 12, 2011, 01:38 PM   #138
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Irony...

If you get to keep an additional 5% of your income, but you put the country deeper into debt, and that results in your children and grandchildren having to pay a lot more, how is that a good thing?

If you get to keep an additional 5% of your income, but someone dies, is that a good thing?
Do I support using the tax code to force people to pay for the charity of your choice? Nope.

Do I support your right to make sure the hypothetical guy lives? Sure do.
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Old May 12, 2011, 01:39 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by mcrain View Post
Irony...

If you get to keep an additional 5% of your income, but you put the country deeper into debt, and that results in your children and grandchildren having to pay a lot more, how is that a good thing?

If you get to keep an additional 5% of your income, but someone dies, is that a good thing?

(How is allowing a company to sell you a product that can kill you a civil right? If you want caffeine and alcohol, make a cocktail. The energy drinks+booze have a dangerous combination that are marketed to younger binge drinkers.)
Let me one up you. What if you give an additional 5% of your income, the economy booms and your stocks and businesses are now worth 25% more? Would you rather have a little bit more of a little or a little bit less of a whole lot more?
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Old May 12, 2011, 01:44 PM   #140
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Yes.

-I care about being able to keep your earnings whether or not your neighbor thinks you earn to much.

-I care about the rights and responsibilities that go along with being free, such as being able to not wear your seatbelt.

-Being able to arm yourself.

-I care about states being able to govern themselves rather than bending and abiding to a monolithic federal government.

-I care about the right to work

-I care about a strong defense (Although we should certainly not be in all these countries)


Would I like it if the "right" embraced the gay stuff? Of course. I would love nothing else than to see that.



Like it or not, I simply think that my neighbors civil right to keep his earnings, my civil right to drink an alcoholic energy drink, my civil right to keep a weapon in my car, my civil right to etc... Is just as important as your civil rights to get married or serve.

Also, I think it is incredibly disingenuous and low to throw around zero-sum accusations like you did.
"Well, you voted democratic? You must automatically support banning guns! Oh, well you DO support firearm ownership (as I know for a fact you DO)? Well, its your words, not your actions pal!"

See?
I do support gun laws with my vote, you're correct. But at least I can admit it. People's individual rights are more important to me than gun restrictions- 100% correct.

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Old May 12, 2011, 01:57 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by MattSepeta
-I care about being able to keep your earnings whether or not your neighbor thinks you earn to much.
Well, I'm afraid that isn't the way our democracy works. You see, we all pay taxes, so nobody gets to keep all of their earnings, except large corporations that pay no taxes through a combination of fraud and shadowy political machinations. And we all collectively get to decide how much earnings we keep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattSepeta
-I care about the rights and responsibilities that go along with being free, such as being able to not wear your seatbelt.
Of all the "freedoms" you could have listed, the right to avoid using safety equipment is at the top?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattSepeta
-Being able to arm yourself.
As far as I'm aware, there is no legislation afoot anywhere that would prevent this...do you support the concept of limits on firearms ownership, and regulation of firearms ownership? Just as we have on the ability to drive or vote?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattSepeta
I care about states being able to govern themselves rather than bending and abiding to a monolithic federal government.
I see the exact same types of corruption, inefficiency and squabbling over jurisdiction and authority within state governments as I do within the federal government. I don't understand why you think they are inherently better than the federal government in any way. The only difference is that they are smaller and geographically more limited. Why should local governments "bend" and "abide to" state governments, the latter of which can appear very arbitrary and "monolithic" to township, county or city governments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattSepeta
-I care about the right to work
Who doesn't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattSepeta
-I care about a strong defense (Although we should certainly not be in all these countries)
I've never heard anyone argue against that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattSepeta
-Would I like it if the "right" embraced the gay stuff? Of course. I would love nothing else than to see that.
Fiscal conservatives who are also social progressives are vastly outnumbered by conservatism's core support - the religious, traditionalist social conservatives, most of whom also style themselves as fiscal conservatives. I don't see that changing in the foreseeable future. As a result, social and fiscal conservatism are effectivly one monolithic bloc when it comes down to voting patterns.
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Old May 12, 2011, 02:17 PM   #142
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Matt is working from a few different assumptions here which I think many would argue are incorrect.


1. There are no limits to economic growth, and that there are no limits to
how much wealth a country can have. The reality however is that there can
only be so much money circulating at one time, and a select group controlling
most of it means that others can't have it.

2. Wealthy people got that way by "working hard." This idea that working hard makes you "wealthy" is ludicrous. Lets keep in mind, those professions that pay well and do require you work hard are upper middle class (doctors, most lawyers etc..) not upper class, and certainly not wealthy are part of the top 1-2% by any means.

3. That raising taxes even by only a few % points, can in no way spur economic growth. ( This has been proven false many times, i.e. Clinton years)

4. That the wealthy owning class don't make most of their money on the backs of the working class. "working hard" has nothing to do with being successful, in fact poor people often work longer, harder hours for... less.
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Old May 12, 2011, 02:19 PM   #143
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3. That raising taxes even by only a few % points, can in no way spur economic growth. ( this has been proven false many times, i.e. Clinton years)
what????
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Old May 12, 2011, 03:35 PM   #144
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If national pride is the Republican agenda, then i guess i'll be voting republican again in 2012.
Hell -- if they ever do anything America can be proud of, I might vote for them too.
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Old May 12, 2011, 03:44 PM   #145
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Now excuse me, but I sure as ***** fall into the bottom tax bracket at this point in my life.
From a Libertarian point of view you obviously just need to work harder.
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Old May 12, 2011, 04:27 PM   #146
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-I care about being able to keep your earnings whether or not your neighbor thinks you earn to much.

-I care about the rights and responsibilities that go along with being free, such as being able to not wear your seatbelt.

-Being able to arm yourself.

-I care about states being able to govern themselves rather than bending and abiding to a monolithic federal government.

-I care about the right to work

-I care about a strong defense (Although we should certainly not be in all these countries)
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Old May 12, 2011, 05:07 PM   #147
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what????
Are you suggesting that raising taxes has never spurred economic growth?
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Old May 12, 2011, 05:20 PM   #148
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How do you know it doesn't effect you?
Better yet, for MattSepeta, how much do you make if you care to divulge? Not an exact but what general stratus do you reside? I'm a little over $100k per year. So I do pay taxes. You are either being deceptive, in denial, or not so smart. The guy that makes $999 billion years effects you dearly unless you are independently wealthy. When financial gluttons live amongst us, they take away from everyone. They insist on their gluttony before they can ever afford to allow you to live a comfortable life. Taxes rates must be raised on the wealthy without a doubt.

Right now I'm listening to Mitch McConnell in the background. Eric Cantor voted to raise the debt limit under Bush multiple times but now that he is facing a Democratic president, he gets to act like he is the responsible one. The Republican Party should be run out of town. Of course that is hard to do if we have a bunch of nincompoops voting for them.

I have absolutely no problem with fixing our debt, but any AVERAGE person who trusts the GOP to fix this problem and keep the welfare of average citizens first and foremost is simply dreaming. Without any doubt, they are going to sell you out. How do I know? They have all ready sold you out. Why should I expect any different in the future especially with their insistence that no taxes are going to be raised period?

What is most ironic here is that a wide spectrum of corporations, by their polices and their non-allegiance are eradicating the middle class in this country, the US Government appears to be helpless to put brakes on it, and conservatives are everywhere, including this forum, cheer leading for them and spouting about how much better things will be. Wrong! They'll be better for a few, but not for most.
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Old May 12, 2011, 05:32 PM   #149
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Right now I'm listening to Mitch McConnell in the background. Eric Cantor voted to raise the debt limit under Bush multiple times but now that he is facing a Democratic president, he gets to act like he is the responsible one. The Republican Party should be run out of town. Of course that is hard to do if we have a bunch of nincompoops voting for them.
I love how all the Republicans who went on national TV with boners over Ryan's budget and supported it are against raising the debt ceiling. Ryan's budget, of course, would raise it.
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Old May 12, 2011, 06:20 PM   #150
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I love how all the Republicans who went on national TV with boners over Ryan's budget and supported it are against raising the debt ceiling. Ryan's budget, of course, would raise it.
I'd like to mention the most sleaziest of popular GOPers, THE GRINCH. This guy is a hero to some. If there is a reason to run this party out of town, he would be it. Have you heard the BS he's been pandering lately? Like Obama ran an "unfair" election? That Obama has a "Kenian, anti-colonial mindset"? That he foisted a "con" on the American people? These are hateful statements, a cornerstone of GOPer tactics. And unfortunately there appear to be quite a few idiots lapping this stuff up.
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