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Old Jan 9, 2011, 09:59 PM   #1
Mactrillionaire
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One BIG complaint about the Mac App Store

One thing that is really bugging me about the Mac App Store at this point is that licenses are for "personal and non-commercial use". To me (and I'm sure a lot of other people) this aspect of licensing strikes me as truly weakening the potential for the store. Now, such a term mostly made sense for iPhone and iTunes content, but it is quite limiting when we consider the kinds of applications that will be sold in the App Store and what real-world applications they might be used for. I realize one of the reasons for this decision was to keep prices down and get more sales and less piracy; however, I think the individual developer should have been allowed to make that decision for Mac Apps and even offer two different licenses for the application in question. If I can't legally use any of the applications purchased from the App Store for commercial applications, that is a huge disincentive in even using it at all. It makes me think the App Store was created for general purpose end use and that perhaps the platform should not be taken as seriously as I once took it.
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Old Jan 9, 2011, 10:06 PM   #2
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It's a big complaint that's based in absolutely nothing true. Read the agreement more carefully. You may install the software on as many computers as you own or control if you are using it for "personal, non-commercial use". If you're using it for commercial purposes, it may only be used for a single user or a single computer. You absolutely may use the products for commercial purposes, though.

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Old Jan 9, 2011, 10:21 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mactrillionaire View Post
It makes me think the App Store was created for general purpose end use and that perhaps the platform should not be taken as seriously as I once took it.
If by "the platform" you mean the Macintosh, then yes, if you're deploying computers to more than 30 or 40 employees, stay away from the Macintosh. Go to Windows with generic PCs. The security, authorization, lockdown, and monitoring tools are much more advanced on the Windows side. Of course you'll need to hire two or three employees in the IT area to deploy the software and manage and monitor the enterprise controls.

Apple's target market does NOT include the enterprise. If you're deploying to a handful of employees then by all means, pick whichever platform you or your employees want.

I say this as a Macintosh fan since 1985 (Mac 512 Ke) and having never bought a Windows PC for home use (except for Boot Camp for gaming).

If by "the platform" you mean the Macintosh App Store, the same comments apply, at least right now.
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Old Jan 9, 2011, 11:08 PM   #4
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Sorry, Patrick, after well over a decade of Windows, I have no desire to go back. I am all too familiar with the security and usability problems, even though I know how to get around most of them. Microsoft just doesn't make software that is a good use of my time. As far as the Mac goes, yes I did try it when I was younger and ran away around the time it looked like Apple was going to go broke, but I am back now. I'm just hoping that Apple will take their professional customers a bit more seriously now. I don't really care if the focus is on general consumers so long as there is still respect for the prosumers.
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Old Jan 9, 2011, 11:49 PM   #5
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Did you actually read the terms of the Mac App Store ?
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Old Jan 10, 2011, 12:11 AM   #6
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Did you actually read the terms of the Mac App Store ?
Unfortunately, yes. The other unfortunate aspect is that the definitions (those terms which appear "Capitalized" defining them) and then later use capitalization are what legally matter about a contract. So, "Product" collectively refers to all digital content that can be purchased using an iTunes Store Account (Apple ID with store credit and/or payment information attached). The "personal and non-commercial use" is emphasized in several places in addition to this with no exception for the Mac App Store. The only good thing about it is the fact that licenses will be cheaper so there will probably be less piracy.
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Old Jan 10, 2011, 12:28 AM   #7
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FALSE. Of course the software can be used for business. Duh. Explained:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...2&postcount=26

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickCocoa View Post
If by "the platform" you mean the Macintosh, then yes, if you're deploying computers to more than 30 or 40 employees, stay away from the Macintosh. Go to Windows with generic PCs. The security, authorization, lockdown, and monitoring tools are much more advanced on the Windows side. Of course you'll need to hire two or three employees in the IT area to deploy the software and manage and monitor the enterprise controls.

Apple's target market does NOT include the enterprise. If you're deploying to a handful of employees then by all means, pick whichever platform you or your employees want.

I say this as a Macintosh fan since 1985 (Mac 512 Ke) and having never bought a Windows PC for home use (except for Boot Camp for gaming).

If by "the platform" you mean the Macintosh App Store, the same comments apply, at least right now.
Completely false. Windows and security do not belong in the same sentence.

Many businesses cut their total ownership cost way down by using Macs.
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Old Jan 10, 2011, 12:40 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mactrillionaire View Post
Unfortunately, yes. The other unfortunate aspect is that the definitions (those terms which appear "Capitalized" defining them) and then later use capitalization are what legally matter about a contract. So, "Product" collectively refers to all digital content that can be purchased using an iTunes Store Account (Apple ID with store credit and/or payment information attached). The "personal and non-commercial use" is emphasized in several places in addition to this with no exception for the Mac App Store. The only good thing about it is the fact that licenses will be cheaper so there will probably be less piracy.

So, I guess you skipped over Provision for the "MAC APP STORE PRODUCT USAGE RULES"?

More specifically:

Quote:
MAC APP STORE PRODUCT USAGE RULES

Except as otherwise set forth herein,

(i) You may download and use an application from the Mac App Store ("Mac App Store Product") for personal, non-commercial use on any Apple-branded products running Mac OS X that you own or control ("Mac Product").

(ii) If you are a commercial enterprise or educational institution, you may download a Mac App Store Product for use either (a) by a single individual on each of the Mac Product(s) that you own or control, or (b) by multiple individuals on a single shared Mac Product that you own or control. For example, a single employee may use a Mac App Store Product on both the employee's desktop Mac Product and laptop Mac Product, or multiple students may serially use the Product on a single Mac Product located at a resource center or library.
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Old Jan 10, 2011, 12:40 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Consultant View Post
FALSE. Of course the software can be used for business. Duh. Explained:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...2&postcount=26



Completely false. Windows and security do not belong in the same sentence.

Many businesses cut their total ownership cost way down by using Macs.
I read the whole agreement so I will have to inform you of why this post is not relevant: The agreement also states that an employee of Apple, Inc. does not have the authority to vary the agreement. So, what it says is what it says. The agreement says that "Product" refers to all digital content available for purchase from the iTunes store. It later states that the "Product" is ONLY licensed for "personal and non-commercial use." There also isn't any exception listed in that sentence or when it repeats that condition specifically for C. Mac App Store.
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Old Jan 10, 2011, 12:47 AM   #10
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So, I guess you skipped over Provision for the "MAC APP STORE PRODUCT USAGE RULES"?

More specifically:
Nevermind...this statement seems to contradict itself. So, now they will need to issue a clarification. An employee is not a business. An employee is a business user. An employee doesn't necessarily profit from using the software.
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Old Jan 10, 2011, 01:00 AM   #11
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If you're confused or unsure of the terms and conditions of the Mac App Store, you shouldn't purchase your software from it.

It's not as if all of a sudden it's the only option available.
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Old Jan 10, 2011, 01:06 AM   #12
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The Mac App Store was designed as an easy way for users to acquire software and track updates. Secondly it was designed as a means for Apple to make more $$ on their software. It was not however, designed as many people already mistakenly think of the iTunes Music/Movie/etc. and iOS App Stores, to make them money off third party media and software. These entities do not make a drop in the bucket of Apple's bottom line. What these entities do provide Apple with is hardware sales - iOS devices, iPods, and Macs. The Mac App Store was designed to sell more Macs. Period.

Lastly, it was certainly not designed in its current implementation, to deploy software to multiple machines in a corporate or business setting. It may in the future be refined to add this sort of functionality. However, any business wanting to achieve this functionality is best off negotiating bundled licensing through the software developer and using tools such as Remote Desktop to deploy and maintain software.
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Old Jan 10, 2011, 01:10 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
If you're confused or unsure of the terms and conditions of the Mac App Store, you shouldn't purchase your software from it.

It's not as if all of a sudden it's the only option available.
Obviously there are other choices, though not ones that are a good use of my time. What is your point, anyway? I can criticize Apple all I want. They will be better and more profitable from following my advice. I guess that's what you should want unless you're not an Apple stock holder. In any event, if I didn't feel annoyed enough by a specific issue, I wouldn't even bother commenting on it.

So, overall, it still isn't clear whether there is a legally significant difference between "Product" and "Mac App Store Product" since it would appear that "Product" is inclusive of all items in the store. By the way, well written legal agreements have Definitions at the beginning. It makes it a lot easier to read that way and less likely that some Definition is going to conflict with another Definition. Definitions aren't useful if they lead to ambiguity.
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Old Jan 10, 2011, 01:26 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Mactrillionaire View Post
Obviously there are other choices, though not ones that are a good use of my time. What is your point, anyway? I can criticize Apple all I want. They will be better and more profitable from following my advice. I guess that's what you should want unless you're not an Apple stock holder. In any event, if I didn't feel annoyed enough by a specific issue, I wouldn't even bother commenting on it.

So, overall, it still isn't clear whether there is a legally significant difference between "Product" and "Mac App Store Product" since it would appear that "Product" is inclusive of all items in the store. By the way, well written legal agreements have Definitions at the beginning. It makes it a lot easier to read that way and less likely that some Definition is going to conflict with another Definition. Definitions aren't useful if they lead to ambiguity.
My point was that if the Mac App Store in it's current state didn't work for you, then don't use it until you are clear on the terms and conditions.

If you think analyzing legal agreements and Definitions is a better use of your time...then criticize away.
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Old Jan 10, 2011, 02:23 AM   #15
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Who cares? I mean really? Who could care less? Don't shop at the App Store if you don't like it.

/thread.
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Old Jan 10, 2011, 07:42 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by PatrickCocoa View Post
If by "the platform" you mean the Macintosh, then yes, if you're deploying computers to more than 30 or 40 employees, stay away from the Macintosh. Go to Windows with generic PCs. The security, authorization, lockdown, and monitoring tools are much more advanced on the Windows side.
If you even knew what you're talking about you'd know that this is not true. Check out UNIX and check out OS X Server. Compare it to Windows and you'll see no difference. The only thing Apple doesn't have is something Microsoft and Citrix do have: terminal server. On the virtualisation side Windows and Linux are also a better choice since you're allowed to virtualise those systems (great for something like a VDI).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
It's not as if all of a sudden it's the only option available.
Unfortunately some app developers now only use the app store as their distribution channel thus making it "the only option available all of a sudden".

This is a valuable lesson for developers: if you target business users make sure your software is available outside the app store!
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Old Jan 10, 2011, 08:07 AM   #17
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I have to say that I can't see what is confusing or contradictory about the Mac App Store Product Usage Rules posted above.

Clearly, for non commercial use, you can download an App and install it on multiple machines so that, for example, you could be using it on one computer whilst your wife uses the same item on another.

For commercial or educational use, you can only have one instance of the App in use. You have the choice of keeping the App machine specific (i.e. installed on one machine but available to many people (obviously one at a time) or person specific (one individual has the App on his desktop and Laptop, but only he uses it).

These look live clear and reasonably generous rules to me. I really don't see why it is a problem.
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Old Jan 10, 2011, 08:10 AM   #18
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I can criticize Apple all I want. They will be better and more profitable from following my advice.
If you are confident enough about your own abilities to assert that one of the most profitable and valuable businesses will be even more profitable by following your advice then why are you wasting your time on here.

Go out and get 'em!
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Old Jan 10, 2011, 08:34 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by PatrickCocoa View Post
If by "the platform" you mean the Macintosh, then yes, if you're deploying computers to more than 30 or 40 employees, stay away from the Macintosh. Go to Windows with generic PCs. The security, authorization, lockdown, and monitoring tools are much more advanced on the Windows side. Of course you'll need to hire two or three employees in the IT area to deploy the software and manage and monitor the enterprise controls.
I had no idea it was still 2003?
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Old Jan 10, 2011, 10:43 AM   #20
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For commercial or educational use, you can only have one instance of the App in use. You have the choice of keeping the App machine specific (i.e. installed on one machine but available to many people (obviously one at a time) or person specific (one individual has the App on his desktop and Laptop, but only he uses it).

These look live clear and reasonably generous rules to me. I really don't see why it is a problem.
How about trying to distribute the applications throughout the network? It seems that you need to enter the apple-id upon the first launch of the application. This is something that will also happen when restoring a time machine backup so I think it will also happen when you distribute the apps throughout the network. That might be a problem, a very big one.

I have to agree with Mactrillionaire on this, the Mac App Store is not a very good solution for businesses. Apple needs to rethink that part and come up with a solution. It's not something that isn't fixable. Home users still are the main audience.
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Old Jan 10, 2011, 10:46 AM   #21
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I wouldn't dispute that the Mac App Store is probably not the best method of buying software for a business. I would certainly buy boxed software for business if the choice is there.

What I am disputing is the suggestion that the T&C's are confusing on this matter. They look quite clear to me.
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Old Jan 10, 2011, 11:18 AM   #22
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Nevermind...this statement seems to contradict itself. So, now they will need to issue a clarification. An employee is not a business. An employee is a business user. An employee doesn't necessarily profit from using the software.
The statement is actually very, very clear. When you download software from the Mac AppStore, you have the choice of three different modes how to deploy it:

Mode 1: You install the app on any number of Macintoshes that you own and control, and anyone can use the software, but usage is restricted to personal and non-commercial usage.

Mode 2a: You can install the application on any number of Macintoshes, as long as all these Macintoshes are used by a single person only. There is no other restriction on the usage.

Mode 2b: You can install the application on a single Macintosh. Anybody can use it. There is no restriction on the usage at all.

So you have the choice: Many Macs, many users, non-commercial. Many Macs, one user, commercial. One Mac, many users, commercial. Choose one of these three.

Quote:
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I have to agree with Mactrillionaire on this, the Mac App Store is not a very good solution for businesses. Apple needs to rethink that part and come up with a solution. It's not something that isn't fixable. Home users still are the main audience.
I wonder what Citrix Receiver is doing on the Mac AppStore then. You must know something that these guys don't know.
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Old Jan 10, 2011, 12:13 PM   #23
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I have to agree with Mactrillionaire on this, the Mac App Store is not a very good solution for businesses. Apple needs to rethink that part and come up with a solution. It's not something that isn't fixable. Home users still are the main audience.
The problem, IMHO, is how purchases are tracked. You need a single signon - which is OK since it would allow companies to track licenses; but there is no way to buy multiple copies of an app. They could allow gifting ; but that would require each user to login and install the app. A small company could do that but once you start getting more employees it becomes too difficult.

Here's my way to fix it - create App Store Business accounts that allow you to purchase multiple copies and set up users to receive them. They could also build in business pricing to allow for multiple license discounts. Create an app the periodically logs into the app store and retrieves and installs any new apps the business has assigned to a particular account; and or create an app that runs on a company's server and manages the installs and push them that way. That way you can migrate the aps to your macs as well as keep track of the licenses.

For smaller companies, a business app store would be a good way to maintain multiple machines with very little fuss and ensure you stay legal with licenses. Bigger companies would no doubt already have dedicated Apple reps to handle such issues.
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