Need some help getting some documentation...asking for help

Just wanting to clarify here... you want the benefits of Greek citizenship without the responsibilities?
Does that about sum it up?

As far as tax paperwork is concerned... check with the IRS

The.316 said:

So here is the situation... I am an American citizen living in Greece at the moment, I became a Greek citizen last year, so I now have dual citizenship. The Greek government now wants me to join the army, which is mandatory for all males here, and in order to get out of it, I need to get some documentation. I need prior tax paperwork I did, and any information I can get from my old job. I can get the paperwork from Verizon Wireless, which was my employer for the past eight years before I left for Greece, but Im a bit stumped on the tax paperwork. Anyone have any suggestions?

I find it ridiculous that the Greek embassy in Tampa, FL wants information showing that I lived in the US for my whole life, up until 2008, but they wont accept a US passport that shows all the times I have traveled to and from the US the past decade. Im 33 years old, and while I understand that the army is mandatory, I am a US citizen first, and was born in the US, and dont want to comply to this, so I have to figure out how to get around this. If anyone has any other useful info, please let me know.

Click to expand...

Uh, did you even bother researching what becoming a dual citizen would entail before going through the process?

After about two seconds searching I found the following - http://livingingreece.gr/2007/06/03/dual-citizenship-american-and-greek/ . Read down a bit on the left for "Greek Military Obligations."

(found searching "become dual citizen greece" in Google)

You can't just "get around" something because you do not want to do it. You get around it by not becoming a Greek citizen when you are an American.

The.316 said:

I now have dual citizenship.

<snip>

I am a US citizen first, and was born in the US, and dont want to comply to this, so I have to figure out how to get around this.

Click to expand...

I don't think "dual citizenship" means "citizenship here first, and citizenship there when it's convenient."

The.316 said:

Im 33 years old, and while I understand that the army is mandatory, I am a US citizen first, and was born in the US, and dont want to comply to this, so I have to figure out how to get around this. If anyone has any other useful info, please let me know.

Click to expand...

Apparently, you don't understand it. Sounds to me like you should have done more research before picking up that Greek citizenship. Enjoy army life.

Reduced Tours of Duty

Some conscripts qualify to serve a reduced tour and may have the option to buy out their remaining duty for a fee of 293.47 per month.

* Citizens who lived constantly abroad since their 11th birthday and have parents not employed by the Greek state serve 6 months.

* Naturalized Greek citizens serve 6 months.

For your specific situation, it is best to consult the Ministry of Defense’s official website listed at the end of this article as there are several factors taken into consideration when determining a reduced military tour. This section was only provided as a general outline.

Credit link: http://livingingreece.gr/category/greek-military-service/#ixzz1D0je5FFy

Click to expand...

Edited out some other criteria, but it seems like they are asking for your tax paperwork to establish that you have been living abroad (ie. the US) since your 11th birthday. They are not asking you for your tax paperwork so that you can get out of military service completely... rather it is to establish that you can qualify for the reduced military service requirement or the reduced buyout payment of 6 x 293.46 euros. You are not getting out of the military service requirement completely without some cost to you (either monetary or your time).

You should have probably researched this better... I found that following the military service information link in less than 5 minutes. Sorry.

Think of it as an immersive "Get Fit" spa camp. Semi-Private accommodations (you and 145 of you best buds). Good Greek food (if you like the Greek equivalent of Beans On Toast.) Morning strolls (if you like carrying 45kg backpacks). A chance to see the country-side (if they use the recruits to fight their summer forest fires).

And of course, the fitness regime. How do you say "drop and give me 20" in Greek? And there's another benefit.... language training. Think of all the new words you will learn. Latrine. K-P. Spit-'n-polish. Worms. Homesick.

Sounds ideal, eh?

If you were 18, OK - your frontal lobes are fully developed. But 33? Ooops.

Seriously. The best way to get out of this is to leave the country.

snberk103 said:

And of course, the fitness regime. How do you say "drop and give me 20" in Greek? And there's another benefit.... language training. Think of all the new words you will learn. Latrine. K-P. Spit-'n-polish. Worms. Homesick.

Sounds ideal, eh?

Click to expand...

Look on the bright side, he'll get to meet the Greek equivalent of R. Lee Ermey. The man is entertaining to watch, so long as he's not yelling at ME.

As for the tax documents, you can go the local office of the IRS and ask for you income tax transcript. You'll have to pick it up in person. It shows the tax payment (tax evasion) history.

Have you denounced your US citizenship? Because legally you cannot hold dual citizenship if you are a US citizen no matter what the other country says is legal. Dual citizenship is not recognized in the United States as a valid citizenship status under federal law, so unless you have walked into a US embassy and made the declaration stating denouncement of your citizenship no matter what Greece says you are still strictly a citizen of the United States on paper.

The reasons why may include issues of national loyalties, and avoiding unwanted foreign influences in domestic politics. Does dual citizenship mean you can vote for the presidents of both nations and be subject to both governments rules even when they may conflict? If yes then this is an issue and a huge reason why dual citizenship is looked upon so negatively here.

This should be in PRSI

Ttownbeast said:

Have you denounced your US citizenship? Because legally you cannot hold dual citizenship if you are a US citizen no matter what the other country says is legal. Dual citizenship is not recognized in the United States as a valid citizenship status under federal law, so unless you have walked into a US embassy and made the declaration stating denouncement of your citizenship no matter what Greece says you are still strictly a citizen of the United States on paper.

The reasons why may include issues of national loyalties, and avoiding unwanted foreign influences in domestic politics. Does dual citizenship mean you can vote for the presidents of both nations and be subject to both governments rules even when they may conflict? If yes then this is an issue and a huge reason why dual citizenship is looked upon so negatively here.

This should be in PRSI

Click to expand...

The issue is not whether the US recognizes his Greek citizenship, it's whether Greece recognizes it. As long as Greece believes the citizenship is valid, he's in a pickle. And he can protest all he wants that he's still a US citizen... but until Greece rescinds the Greek citizenship, Greek laws apply. At least in Greece.

Ttownbeast said:

Have you denounced your US citizenship? Because legally you cannot hold dual citizenship if you are a US citizen no matter what the other country says is legal. Dual citizenship is not recognized in the United States as a valid citizenship status under federal law...

Click to expand...

You sure about that?

US State Department Services Dual Nationality

Ttownbeast said:

Have you denounced your US citizenship? Because legally you cannot hold dual citizenship if you are a US citizen no matter what the other country says is legal.

Click to expand...

Says who? http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another.

Click to expand...

It is only if you seek or apply for other citizenship that you may lose your US citizenship.

EDIT: dejo beat me to it.

B

dejo said:

You sure about that?

US State Department Services Dual Nationality

Click to expand...

inteesting reads but......

quote from: http://www.richw.org/dualcit/law.html#INA

US citizenship vs. US nationality

US law makes a distinction between "citizenship" and "nationality." All US citizens are also US nationals; however, some US nationals are not US citizens.

The term "national of the United States" is defined in Section 101(a)(22) of the INA [8 USC § 1101(a)(22)] as "a person who, though not a citizen of the United States, owes permanent allegiance to the United States".

Section 308 of the INA [8 USC § 1408] says (more or less) that a person born in an "outlying possession" of the US -- or a foreign-born child of such a person -- is a US national, but not a US citizen. At the present time, the only "outlying possessions" of the US, as defined in 8 USC § 1101(a)(29), are American Samoa and Swains Island (in the South Pacific).

Note that people born in the following places are defined in Sections 302-307 of the INA [8 USC §§ 1402-1407] to be US citizens: Puerto Rico; the Canal Zone; Alaska and Hawaii (before they became states); the US Virgin Islands; and Guam.

Although most references in this FAQ to US "citizenship" should, for the sake of completeness, technically refer to US "nationality", I have chosen in general to use the more common term in the interests of clarity.

Click to expand...

and of course my point was concerning dual "citizenship" not dual "nationality".

Now to quote something else from your same source travel.state.gov:

The Department of State is responsible for determining the citizenship status of a person located outside the United States or in connection with the application for a U.S. passport while in the United States.

POTENTIALLY EXPATRIATING ACTS

Section 349 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1481), as amended, states that U.S. citizens are subject to loss of citizenship if they perform certain specified acts voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship. Briefly stated, these acts include:

1. obtaining naturalization in a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (1) INA);
2. taking an oath, affirmation or other formal declaration to a foreign state or its political subdivisions (Sec. 349 (a) (2) INA);
3. entering or serving in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities against the U.S. or serving as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer in the armed forces of a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (3) INA);
4. accepting employment with a foreign government if (a) one has the nationality of that foreign state or (b) an oath or declaration of allegiance is required in accepting the position (Sec. 349 (a) (4) INA);
5. formally renouncing U.S. citizenship before a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer outside the United States (sec. 349 (a) (5) INA);
6. formally renouncing U.S. citizenship within the U.S. (but only under strict, narrow statutory conditions) (Sec. 349 (a) (6) INA);
7. conviction for an act of treason (Sec. 349 (a) (7) INA).

Click to expand...

So looking a bit closer at things, our OP says:

I am an American citizen living in Greece at the moment, I became a Greek citizen last year,

Click to expand...

which by our laws no longer makes him a citizen of the US even if he still is a US national so his citizenship with the US is now invalid, there is no dual citizenship he is no longer a citizen of the US but a citizen of Greece because such a status is not recognized under American law--he can be a "dual national" all he likes but he cannot hold dual citizenship.

To the OP: Good luck in the Greek army--ever wonder why you aren't getting all the necessary paperwork?

Ttownbeast said:

So looking a bit closer at things, our OP says: which by our laws no longer makes him a citizen of the US even if he still is a US national so his citizenship with the US is now invalid, there is no dual citizenship he is no longer a citizen of the US but a citizen of Greece because such a status is not recognized under American law--he can be a "dual national" all he likes but he cannot hold dual citizenship.

Click to expand...

If he obtained his Greek status through marriage or something like that the bit you cited does not apply. As I said in my post, he may (or not) have lost his US citizenship depending on how he became Greek, but there is no US law preventing someone who is a citizen or national of another country (by birth, marriage, etc... ) from keeping their other status as well as remaining a full American citizen.

a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship.

Click to expand...

B

balamw said:

If he obtained his Greek status through marriage or something like that the bit you cited does not apply. As I said in my post, he may (or not) have lost his US citizenship depending on how he became Greek, but there is no US law preventing someone who is a citizen or national of another country (by birth, marriage, etc... ) from keeping their other status as well as remaining a full American citizen.
B

Click to expand...

They cannot here's a summary of the oath to become a naturalized citizen:

Oath of Allegiance
To become a citizen, one must take the oath of allegiance. By doing so, an applicant swears to:
• support the Constitution and obey the laws of the United States;
• renounce any foreign allegiance and/or foreign title;
• bear arms for the Armed Forces of the United States or perform services for the government of the United States when required.

The full reading:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

Click to expand...

This is an official statement there is of course wiggle room (alternate affirmation wordings and so forth for religious purposes), but beyond that it is still an official binding contract. You don't come here to become a citizen expecting to retain that citizenship in your old country--you cannot come from a monarchy and expect the US to recognize the king or queens authority over a US citizen, nor is it recognized officially by the US if you leave here and take up citizenship in another nation and retain your US citizenship. In fact if you take up foreign citizenship the base assumption is that you no longer wish to be a US citizen and the response by the US will be to send a form to file asking if you would like to denounce US citizenship by default born here or not--give no response and they will revoke citizenship.

Carrying that supposed dual citizenship voids the protections for American nationals abroad who do it too, because it puts their legal status as a citizen under major scrutiny when it is found out that they have full legal residence in another country. It is not so much an active full on illegalization of the practice of dual citizenship through extreme punitive measures but the laws in place discourage the recognition of it thoroughly enough that it can be lost very easily and harder to regain. Our OP here may have dug himself a very deep hole and may not get the help of any government agencies unless he denounces the Greek citizenship before he digs himself a deeper one.

Ttownbeast , I will trust the American Department of State resources over some random guys website and your personal interpretations.

On dual nationality:

Dual nationality can occur as the result of a variety of circumstances. The automatic acquisition or retention of a foreign nationality, acquired, for example, by birth in a foreign country or through an alien parent, does not affect U.S. citizenship. It is prudent, however, to check with authorities of the other country to see if dual nationality is permissible under local law. Dual nationality can also occur when a person is naturalized in a foreign state without intending to relinquish U.S. nationality and is thereafter found not to have lost U.S. citizenship: the individual consequently may possess dual nationality. While recognizing the existence of dual nationality and permitting Americans to have other nationalities, the U.S. Government also recognizes the problems which it may cause. Claims of other countries upon dual-national U.S. citizens often place them in situations where their obligations to one country are in conflict with the laws of the other. In addition, their dual nationality may hamper efforts to provide U.S. diplomatic and consular protection to them when they are abroad.

Click to expand...

http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html

Also, regarding dual nationality and dual citizenship

The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time.

Click to expand...

from http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

This is from the Department of State website as well.

Also in that same page

However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

Click to expand...

From what you quoted too -

Section 349 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1481), as amended, states that U.S. citizens are subject to loss of citizenship if they perform certain specified acts voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship. Briefly stated, these acts include:

Click to expand...

The OP presumably has not become a citizen of Greece with the intent to relinquish his US citizenship. So what you are saying does not apply (unless of course he did this).


The problem of course with holding dual citizenship means that you are obligated to follow laws from both countries. This might get really complicated in cases like this. Unfortunately, you are living in Greece too, which means they likely have a stronger "claim" to you than the USA does.

You can actually request tax information from the IRS I think if you no longer have access to your last few tax returns.

Ttownbeast said:

Oath of Allegiance
To become a citizen, one must take the oath of allegiance

Click to expand...

You're mixing and matching things at random. The oath of allegiance is for non-US citizens becoming naturalized. Children born in the USA or born outside the USA of US citizens do not have to take the oath of allegiance to claim citizenship.

You can't choose to become American and keep your previous citizenship, but if you are or become automatically both American and something else you stay both.

B

ender land said:

Ttownbeast , I will trust the American Department of State resources over some random guys website and your personal interpretations.

Click to expand...

That random guy as you put it references these same Department of State sources.

And naturalization as a Greek citizen puts the OPs status as an American citizen in question

This quote I posted earlier was from the Department of State website and not from "random guy" I have bolded the important points for emphasis from the DOS:

The Department of State is responsible for determining the citizenship status of a person located outside the United States or in connection with the application for a U.S. passport while in the United States.

POTENTIALLY EXPATRIATING ACTS

Section 349 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1481), as amended, states that U.S. citizens are subject to loss of citizenship if they perform certain specified acts voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship. Briefly stated, these acts include:

1. obtaining naturalization in a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (1) INA);
2. taking an oath, affirmation or other formal declaration to a foreign state or its political subdivisions (Sec. 349 (a) (2) INA);
3. entering or serving in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities against the U.S. or serving as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer in the armed forces of a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (3) INA);
4. accepting employment with a foreign government if (a) one has the nationality of that foreign state or (b) an oath or declaration of allegiance is required in accepting the position (Sec. 349 (a) (4) INA);
5. formally renouncing U.S. citizenship before a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer outside the United States (sec. 349 (a) (5) INA);
6. formally renouncing U.S. citizenship within the U.S. (but only under strict, narrow statutory conditions) (Sec. 349 (a) (6) INA);
7. conviction for an act of treason (Sec. 349 (a) (7) INA).

Click to expand...

and it is the OP's responsibility to set the matter straight otherwise he is no longer a US citizen, and if the OP does wish to retain US citizenship his status as a Greek citizen is not formally recognized in the US. Intent is what is assumed just by the act of naturalization to another nation, and it is up to the OP to prove otherwise.

What part of "potentially" and "with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship" do you not understand?

Applying for, and being accepted as, a citizenship outside the United States does not automatically void your US citizenship. Period. For this to happen you MUST indicate intent for it to do so.

Oh, and in case you still do not believe that, the section on the Department of State's site specifically addresses this (immediately following the paragraph you keep citing incorrectly, emphasis from the site itself):

ADMINISTRATIVE STANDARD OF EVIDENCE


As already noted, the actions listed above can cause loss of U.S. citizenship only if performed voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship. The Department has a uniform administrative standard of evidence based on the premise that U.S. citizens intend to retain United States citizenship when they obtain naturalization in a foreign state, subscribe to a declaration of allegiance to a foreign state, serve in the armed forces of a foreign state not engaged in hostilities with the United States, or accept non-policy level employment with a foreign government.

Click to expand...

Unless the OP has done something to explicitly indicate he wishes his American citizenship to be removed he is most definitely still an American citizen.

ender land said:

What part of "potentially" and "with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship" do you not understand?

Applying for, and being accepted as, a citizenship outside the United States does not automatically void your US citizenship. Period. For this to happen you MUST indicate intent for it to do so.

Oh, and in case you still do not believe that, the section on the Department of State's site specifically addresses this (immediately following the paragraph you keep citing incorrectly, emphasis from the site itself):




Unless the OP has done something to explicitly indicate he wishes his American citizenship to be removed he is most definitely still an American citizen.

Click to expand...

Alone, naturalization as a citizen of a foreign country is considered intent all on its own it counts as expatriation there is no "and" concerning that one. Our OP has to address this with an embassy it is not the job of the federal government to establish that he is still a US citizen but the OPs responsibility to state that he would like to retain his citizenship but in doing so at this point his status as a Greek citizen wouldn't be legally recognized here. And since the requirement for Greek citizenship is military service the OP has pretty much screwed himself, because the feds will take the short route and automatically assume: naturalization elsewhere(alone considered an explicit indication it does not need to b a combination of reasons--especially a country where military service is compulsory)=means our OP is no longer wishing to be a citizen here. If the OP ever changes their mind they will likely have to come back under an immigrant status to regain citizenship.

Ttownbeast said:

Alone, naturalization as a citizen of a foreign country is considered intent all on its own it counts as expatriation there is no "and" concerning that one. Our OP has to address this with an embassy it is not the job of the federal government to establish that he is still a US citizen but the OPs responsibility to state that he would like to retain his citizenship but in doing so at this point his status as a Greek citizen wouldn't be legally recognized here. And since the requirement for Greek citizenship is military service the OP has pretty much screwed himself, because the feds will take the short route and automatically assume: naturalization elsewhere(alone considered an explicit indication it does not need to b a combination of reasons--especially a country where military service is compulsory)=means our OP is no longer wishing to be a citizen here. If the OP ever changes their mind they will likely have to come back under an immigrant status to regain citizenship.

Click to expand...

There is a specific section on the Department of State website indicating what you say to be incorrect using the exact same example you are using.

The website (again from the United States government) describes in detail what someone has to do to lose their citizenship through this process. According to the OP, he has not done this.

Seriously, read through this link - http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html - you are blatantly misinforming this person. Unless of course the State Department website is in error.