Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Apple Hardware > PowerPC Macs

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Feb 8, 2011, 10:15 AM   #1
skinniezinho
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Portugal
Send a message via MSN to skinniezinho
HDD "Study" for powerpc macs

Hi guys,I am "studying" what is the best solution for my powermac g4,and maybe you can help too..
First consideration:
IDE Bus - in my case,ATA 66 => 66Mb/s Top

Second Consideration,and this is where I stopped:

Read/Write speeds vs time acess vs price:

Basically: Wich is better?
A good CF or a good mechanica drive?

For Example I spent about 22eur in a 8Gb 233X CF+ adapter,wich does about
34MB/s Write
30Mb/s Read

wich is +- the speeds that it was rated for,with the benefit of almost zero time acess.
For about 40eur,the only thing that I can get is a Transcend 400X 8Gb wich is rated for:
Write Speed: 60MB/s
Read Speed: 90MB/s


Wouldn't be better to choose a 3.5' Seagate Barracuda 500Gb 16Mb Cache SATA II Single Plate (ST3500418AS) for the same 40eur??(I already have the sata do ide adapter)
It is rated for 160Mb/s,so I guess it will do with ease the 66Mb/s of the ide barrier right?

I tested an old Hitachi 160Gb 8mb cache 7200rpm IDE 3.5' on a powermac 733Mhz and gave me something like 55MB/s for read/write.

Other option that I have is buying a used external firewire HDD,and use it as main,but guess would be slower right?
I seen WD Studio 3.5' 500Gb for 45eur (without warranty) and Iomega 2.5 500Gb with warranty for 50eur.
The thing is that I already own a 250Gb external HDD (usb2).
Opinions and benchmarks needed

Here is a benchark from a user of macrumors:


Quote:
Originally Posted by 666sheep View Post
Code:
Drive Type		WDC WD1600BEKT-00F3T0

Disk Test    	72.25	
		Sequential	123.73	
		Uncached Write	142.05	87.22 MB/sec [4K blocks]
		Uncached Write	121.60	68.80 MB/sec [256K blocks]
		Uncached Read	101.85	29.81 MB/sec [4K blocks]
		Uncached Read	138.00	69.36 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Random     	51.02	
		Uncached Write	18.28	1.93 MB/sec [4K blocks]
		Uncached Write	157.93	50.56 MB/sec [256K blocks]
		Uncached Read	93.43	0.66 MB/sec [4K blocks]
		Uncached Read	150.47	27.92 MB/sec [256K blocks]


This is 2.5" WD Black in my eMac with SATA -> IDE 3.5" adapter.
__________________
Powermac G4 400MHz/2Gb/ATI Rage+3DFx Voodoo 2 SLI/2x80Gb
Powermac G5 Quad/2Gb/Nvidia 7800GT/500Gb
Thinkpad X230/256Gb SSD/16Gb Ram+Dell U2312Hm
F.A.Q for PowerPC Macs Powerpc Upgrades
skinniezinho is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 8, 2011, 10:22 AM   #2
Transporteur
macrumors 68030
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: UK
There is no way the 500GB WD drive does 160MB/s.
Not even the fastest mechanical hard drives you can get these days (600GB 10kRPM drives, or 3TB 7200RPM) can reach that much.

A realistic value for a 500GB drive would be around 80MB/s.

What you could do is to buy a PCI SATA card. That card won't throttle the 500GB drive (133MB/s PCI throughput limit).
Transporteur is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 8, 2011, 10:25 AM   #3
skinniezinho
Thread Starter
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Portugal
Send a message via MSN to skinniezinho
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transporteur View Post
There is no way the 500GB WD drive does 160MB/s.
Not even the fastest mechanical hard drives you can get these days (600GB 10kRPM drives, or 3TB 7200RPM) can reach that much.

A realistic value for a 500GB drive would be around 80MB/s.

What you could do is to buy a PCI SATA card. That card won't throttle the 500GB drive (133MB/s PCI throughput limit).
Thanks for the info,I only stated what the store says (max 160Mb/s).
PCi Sata Cards are too much money for a machine like mine.
And HDD can always have another uses ,machine indepentent.
But once again thanks for that value
__________________
Powermac G4 400MHz/2Gb/ATI Rage+3DFx Voodoo 2 SLI/2x80Gb
Powermac G5 Quad/2Gb/Nvidia 7800GT/500Gb
Thinkpad X230/256Gb SSD/16Gb Ram+Dell U2312Hm
F.A.Q for PowerPC Macs Powerpc Upgrades
skinniezinho is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 8, 2011, 04:05 PM   #4
Cox Orange
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
there are benchmarks on japamacs.com for a WD Raptor (10k) and others.

Other HDD Mac benchmarks at barefeats.com and xlr8yourmac AND http://www.google.de/search?q=mac+be...ient=firefox-a

(btw: for your external enclosure I would prefer firewire over USB... but never use it as a main boot drive).

If you have a Mac that is said to be limited to 128GB Drives, notice that you can use bigger drives, using an OS higher than 10.2 and remembering that under OS 9.2.2 (OS 9.1 is limited to 128GB) you have to make partitions of less than 200GB.
Cox Orange is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 8, 2011, 05:29 PM   #5
skinniezinho
Thread Starter
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Portugal
Send a message via MSN to skinniezinho
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cox Orange View Post
there are benchmarks on japamacs.com for a WD Raptor (10k) and others.

Other HDD Mac benchmarks at barefeats.com and xlr8yourmac AND http://www.google.de/search?q=mac+be...ient=firefox-a

(btw: for your external enclosure I would prefer firewire over USB... but never use it as a main boot drive).

If you have a Mac that is said to be limited to 128GB Drives, notice that you can use bigger drives, using an OS higher than 10.2 and remembering that under OS 9.2.2 (OS 9.1 is limited to 128GB) you have to make partitions of less than 200GB.
Thanks for the sites.
I know about the 128Gb stuff...
Well I though about using firewire as main hdd,but if you say it won't be good,it's minus an option
__________________
Powermac G4 400MHz/2Gb/ATI Rage+3DFx Voodoo 2 SLI/2x80Gb
Powermac G5 Quad/2Gb/Nvidia 7800GT/500Gb
Thinkpad X230/256Gb SSD/16Gb Ram+Dell U2312Hm
F.A.Q for PowerPC Macs Powerpc Upgrades
skinniezinho is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 8, 2011, 07:57 PM   #6
Cox Orange
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by skinniezinho View Post
Thanks for the sites.
I know about the 128Gb stuff...
Well I though about using firewire as main hdd,but if you say it won't be good,it's minus an option
there's one thing I forgot. Do you have the G4 MDD with firewire800? This would make things different. Because with firewire400 you are below the 66MB/s, but fw800 is theoretically above the 66MB/s.
Cox Orange is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 9, 2011, 02:42 AM   #7
skinniezinho
Thread Starter
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Portugal
Send a message via MSN to skinniezinho
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cox Orange View Post
there's one thing I forgot. Do you have the G4 MDD with firewire800? This would make things different. Because with firewire400 you are below the 66MB/s, but fw800 is theoretically above the 66MB/s.
Nope,it's the Gigabit Ethernet on my sig.
Guess the better option is the mechanical hdd right?

edit: I sold my Compact Flash Card,will buy this baby: Samsung Spinpoint F3 500Gb.
Will see how much the "real IDE bottleneck" is
__________________
Powermac G4 400MHz/2Gb/ATI Rage+3DFx Voodoo 2 SLI/2x80Gb
Powermac G5 Quad/2Gb/Nvidia 7800GT/500Gb
Thinkpad X230/256Gb SSD/16Gb Ram+Dell U2312Hm
F.A.Q for PowerPC Macs Powerpc Upgrades

Last edited by skinniezinho; Feb 10, 2011 at 07:39 AM.
skinniezinho is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2011, 05:33 AM   #8
skinniezinho
Thread Starter
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Portugal
Send a message via MSN to skinniezinho
Well,I bought the Samsung 500Gb Spinpoint F3, people told me it is one of the fastest 500Gb "normal" HDD's.
Put it on the powermac using the sata to ide adapter,and cloned my system to it.
Benched it and it only gave me about 40.5Mb/s Read and Write,could it be the adapter that is the bottleneck?or it is the ATA66 "chip" on the motherboard?
__________________
Powermac G4 400MHz/2Gb/ATI Rage+3DFx Voodoo 2 SLI/2x80Gb
Powermac G5 Quad/2Gb/Nvidia 7800GT/500Gb
Thinkpad X230/256Gb SSD/16Gb Ram+Dell U2312Hm
F.A.Q for PowerPC Macs Powerpc Upgrades
skinniezinho is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2011, 03:07 PM   #9
666sheep
macrumors 68040
 
666sheep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Poland
I think ATA66 + adapter are the culprit. What adapter you have?

Single HD502HJ does a little more than 100MB/s R&W (measured with AJA). I have 3 of them in SW RAID 0 in MP and they do near 400MB/s in this setup.

In my eMac I use this one: (sorry, couldn't find bigger pic). It's 4world brand (i.e. "no name" )
666sheep is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2011, 04:38 PM   #10
skinniezinho
Thread Starter
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Portugal
Send a message via MSN to skinniezinho
Quote:
Originally Posted by 666sheep View Post
I think ATA66 + adapter are the culprit. What adapter you have?

Single HD502HJ does a little more than 100MB/s R&W (measured with AJA). I have 3 of them in SW RAID 0 in MP and they do near 400MB/s in this setup.

In my eMac I use this one: (sorry, couldn't find bigger pic). It's 4world brand (i.e. "no name" )
I have one from ebay (china made)

__________________
Powermac G4 400MHz/2Gb/ATI Rage+3DFx Voodoo 2 SLI/2x80Gb
Powermac G5 Quad/2Gb/Nvidia 7800GT/500Gb
Thinkpad X230/256Gb SSD/16Gb Ram+Dell U2312Hm
F.A.Q for PowerPC Macs Powerpc Upgrades

Last edited by skinniezinho; Feb 18, 2011 at 04:57 PM.
skinniezinho is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2011, 07:56 PM   #11
zen.state
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
If I were you I would just get a PCI SATA card and not mess with adapters at all. That way you can use any current large and cheap drive. SATA-IDE adapters always tend to hinder performance and many of them can cause data corruption on a Mac.

My FirmTek SATA card works perfectly with 10.4 and 10.5. It was $70. On my Sawtooth's PCI with the FirmTek 1S2 card I get about 78MB/sec real world hard drive bandwidth consistently. Because modern SATA drives can easily do 100MB+ even at the low end you don't even have to worry about what drive performs best other than maybe a larger buffer like 32MB+. My boot drive is a 1TB WD Black and has a 64MB buffer and seems a bit faster in certain ways over the 32MB buffer Hitachi I used to boot from.

Last week I saw a 1TB WD Blue for $58 and a Seagate 2TB for $80. Personally I am a fan of the WD Black drives and the Hitachi Desktar series.

I would say the FirmTek SATA card was one of my greatest purchases in the ongoing upgrade project that is my Sawtooth. Couldn't work any better. 100% seamless.
zen.state is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 19, 2011, 10:06 AM   #12
Cox Orange
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by zen.state View Post
...cause data corruption on a Mac.

(...) 64MB buffer (...)
I hope the PPC will handle the 4k sectors of the 64MB buffer well. I heard there were big issues on Windows Vista (other than Win 7) with that drives. WD just says that it works for Macs, but since it seems nobody is interested in PPC-Macs in the industry, I am wary if they just mean Intel-Macs and did not test old Macs. I would use them, too, in my PPC-Macs, but am too chicken-hearted to do it. I fear that I will see that data gets corrupted too late.

I would gladly welcome somebody to take my fears away, out of selfexoerience or profound knowledge. :-) Unfortunately no one at xlr8yourmac.com did test them so far, it seems.
Cox Orange is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 19, 2011, 10:31 AM   #13
zen.state
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cox Orange View Post
I hope the PPC will handle the 4k sectors of the 64MB buffer well. I heard there were big issues on Windows Vista (other than Win 7) with that drives. WD just says that it works for Macs, but since it seems nobody is interested in PPC-Macs in the industry, I am wary if they just mean Intel-Macs and did not test old Macs. I would use them, too, in my PPC-Macs, but am too chicken-hearted to do it. I fear that I will see that data gets corrupted too late.

I would gladly welcome somebody to take my fears away, out of selfexoerience or profound knowledge. :-) Unfortunately no one at xlr8yourmac.com did test them so far, it seems.
The data corruption issue I mention is caused by some or even many of those IDE to SATA drive interface adapters. The reason many of them can cause data issues is that the drive controllers on these adapters are rarely fully Mac compatible. Most of them use a controller chipset that would be found in USB drive enclosures. Although many can mount drives fine on a Mac few can boot on a Mac. Maybe try the one sheep 666sheep uses as he seems happy.

I use my WD black SATA drive with a 64MB buffer on a PCI SATA card. No adapters at all. I have been running this as my boot drive for at least 8-9 months now without any issues whatsoever. I boot prom a partition on the first 120GB of it and am running 10.5.8 by the way.
zen.state is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 27, 2011, 05:30 PM   #14
skinniezinho
Thread Starter
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Portugal
Send a message via MSN to skinniezinho
Just to give a little contribution,ended buying an used A-CARD 6290M (30eur with shipping) and the Samsung F3 500Gb.
Now I can see 60Mb/s + on my G4.
Now I can see that 400MHz is really the culprit of some of the slowness.
I bought a SOnnet 1.2GHz cpu, as soon as I install it I will run some benches and put it here =)
__________________
Powermac G4 400MHz/2Gb/ATI Rage+3DFx Voodoo 2 SLI/2x80Gb
Powermac G5 Quad/2Gb/Nvidia 7800GT/500Gb
Thinkpad X230/256Gb SSD/16Gb Ram+Dell U2312Hm
F.A.Q for PowerPC Macs Powerpc Upgrades
skinniezinho is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 7, 2012, 06:49 AM   #15
seveej
macrumors 6502a
 
seveej's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transporteur View Post
What you could do is to buy a PCI SATA card. That card won't throttle the 500GB drive (133MB/s PCI throughput limit).
I concur. I have a sonnet PCI SATA card in my MDD, using two Seagate Barracuda LP's (it's the weird drive doing 5900 rpm), which are rated for max 140/120 MBps (read/write) and when moving large files, I regularly get an actual throughput of 75-85 MBps (this machine works as a server, so those measurements are in fact upload/download speeds (GLAN, jumbo frames)). Have not come close to 133 though

I do not have an extra SSD lying around, otherwise I may have tested.

If you really need to put some serious storage into your PMG4, I strongly recommend it.
__________________
MP 3,1 'nuff RAM, 3 HDD's, 1 SSD, AMD 5770, 10.6
2009 Mini, as server
, and a lot of other gear.
seveej is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 7, 2012, 06:55 AM   #16
skinniezinho
Thread Starter
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Portugal
Send a message via MSN to skinniezinho
Quote:
Originally Posted by seveej View Post
I concur. I have a sonnet PCI SATA card in my MDD, using two Seagate Barracuda LP's (it's the weird drive doing 5900 rpm), which are rated for max 140/120 MBps (read/write) and when moving large files, I regularly get an actual throughput of 75-85 MBps (this machine works as a server, so those measurements are in fact upload/download speeds (GLAN, jumbo frames)). Have not come close to 133 though

I do not have an extra SSD lying around, otherwise I may have tested.

If you really need to put some serious storage into your PMG4, I strongly recommend it.
As I said I bought an AEC-6290M card, but it tops at 60-65Mb/s (I've read somewhere that this card is not a "true" sata card, but something like a scsi converted card.
Sonnet cards go for insane prices on ebay (at least for europe).
I have seen this and I may give it a go.
SIL3512 cards go for about 10-22eur with shipping included on ebay/amazon/etc, flashing is a not a problem for me...so..
I don't need serious storage, just want a little performance bump =)
I now have a 600x CF Card I'd like to try too...
__________________
Powermac G4 400MHz/2Gb/ATI Rage+3DFx Voodoo 2 SLI/2x80Gb
Powermac G5 Quad/2Gb/Nvidia 7800GT/500Gb
Thinkpad X230/256Gb SSD/16Gb Ram+Dell U2312Hm
F.A.Q for PowerPC Macs Powerpc Upgrades
skinniezinho is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 7, 2012, 07:09 AM   #17
seveej
macrumors 6502a
 
seveej's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Quote:
Originally Posted by skinniezinho View Post
Sonnet cards go for insane prices on ebay (at least for europe).
I got mine from OWC ( http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Sonne...ologies/TSATA/ ) (and I'm in the euro zone as well), around 80 (incl. shipment), but as I plugged in some 220 worth of hard drives it did not seem too steep.

RGDS,
__________________
MP 3,1 'nuff RAM, 3 HDD's, 1 SSD, AMD 5770, 10.6
2009 Mini, as server
, and a lot of other gear.
seveej is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 5, 2013, 03:24 PM   #18
skinniezinho
Thread Starter
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Portugal
Send a message via MSN to skinniezinho
Quote:
Originally Posted by seveej View Post
I got mine from OWC ( http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Sonne...ologies/TSATA/ ) (and I'm in the euro zone as well), around 80 (incl. shipment), but as I plugged in some 220 worth of hard drives it did not seem too steep.

RGDS,
Managed to get one too.
I don't know why, but using AJA Speed Test I don't get much difference vs my old ACARD 6290M

Decided to do some XBench on my HDDs.
Tried my Samsung 830 256Gb (it's from my Thinkpad, just deleted the linux partition, formated it in HFS+ and benched it) too.
Here are the results:

Seagate 80Gb IDE


Samsung 830 256Gb


Maxtor Sata I HDD


Samsung Spinpoint F3 HD502HJ



Anyone with similar machine to compare results?
__________________
Powermac G4 400MHz/2Gb/ATI Rage+3DFx Voodoo 2 SLI/2x80Gb
Powermac G5 Quad/2Gb/Nvidia 7800GT/500Gb
Thinkpad X230/256Gb SSD/16Gb Ram+Dell U2312Hm
F.A.Q for PowerPC Macs Powerpc Upgrades

Last edited by skinniezinho; Jan 5, 2013 at 03:55 PM.
skinniezinho is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 6, 2013, 10:58 PM   #19
ybz90
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
I wasn't going to post at first since this is an old thread, but since the OP is still here, I want to note that you might be confusing bits with bytes. There are 8 bits to a byte, so when you see Mb (megabit) that is NOT the same as MB (megabyte). 1MB = 8Mb.

So from earlier, when you mention the WD hard drive rated for 160Mb/s, that's really just 20MB/s. That drive would not saturate your ATA/66, which is 66 MB/s, not Mb/s.

I don't have a G4 tower to compare, but I am familiar with the Samsung 830, which in my opinion, is far superior in speed and reliability to the 840 that 'replaced' it and is even better than the famous Crucial M4. Like most things, I'm guessing that these cards are fairly limited in their ability to provide anywhere near the advertised 1.5Gbps (gigabit, so 187.5MB/s), so realistically, the reason you might be seeing similar speeds to the other card is simply that the devices you have attached either come close to saturating or exceed the capabilities of the cards themselves.
ybz90 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 6, 2013, 11:21 PM   #20
ppcfanforever1
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Would you recommend the owc ssd? They look like they have alot of potential. Are they faster and longer lasting? If so are they worth the price?
ppcfanforever1 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 12:43 AM   #21
ybz90
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by ppcfanforever1 View Post
Would you recommend the owc ssd? They look like they have alot of potential. Are they faster and longer lasting? If so are they worth the price?
I can't speak to those as I don't have any experience with them. Some users here have bought them and have had positive impressions, but in my humble opinion, they are just too insanely overpriced to be worthwhile.

Maybe a year or two ago, when all SSDs were costly, they were a competitive value proposition, but with today's plummeting SSD prices, there is no reason any drive should cost $150 for just 60GB. The novelty behind them really is that they are one of the only, if not the only, manufacturer with a PATA SSD that uses a Sandforce controller. Most others use unknown or low-quality/unreliable controllers, such as the first-generation JMicron, and are frequently old stock since few PATA drives are still being manufactured. This issue is exacerbated by the fact that early drives don't feature very strong garbage collection (and TRIM is impossible with PATA SSDs), though Tiger and Leopard don't support it anyway.

However, PATA drives feature an old technology for its connectivity and are highly limited in speed (if I'm not mistaken, the fastest ATA connection is 133 MB/s?) compared to SATA2 (3Gbps) and SATA3 (6Gbps). Truthfully, PATA SSDs don't come anywhere close to utilizing the full speed of the chips inside. It's for this reason that I think the OWC Legacy SSDs are overkill... you have a great controller inside, but it will never be utilized (especially since it's not even PATA native, it's actually a true SATA drive using a PATA bridge).

So... when you can get the latest (or last gen) SATA SSDs for less than $1 per GB, and a cheap PATA-SATA bridge of your own if necessary, I can't see the justification for their prices in today's market.

edit: By the way, for the PowerBook I rebuilt, I ended up buying an off-brand (Kingspec) PATA SSD. There isn't much about the particular model that I got, mostly negative reviews about earlier versions that featured the aforementioned JMicron controller. Since I didn't want to drop a lot of money on this computer, however, I figured getting a serviceable drive as cheaply as possible was my best option and the new SMI controller sounded promising. I can post impressions and benchmarks when I receive it if you want.
ybz90 is offline   0 Reply With Quote

Reply
MacRumors Forums > Apple Hardware > PowerPC Macs

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Touchscreen Macs. Not a matter of "if" but "when"? Mad Mac Maniac Apple, Industry and Internet Discussion 81 Nov 7, 2013 08:45 PM
"PowerPC applications are no longer supported" What? Who? h4lp m3 OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion 6 Aug 28, 2013 03:43 PM
Installing 2.5" SSD in addition to stock 3.5" HDD in new 27" iMac? TheSpeaker iMac 1 Dec 14, 2012 11:55 AM
PowerPC "Enhanced" Leopard (10.5) floating around Net kdogsup Wasteland 37 Jul 11, 2012 03:14 PM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:00 AM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps