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Old Apr 9, 2011, 01:59 AM   #1
ansirone
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apc for mac pro keeps beeping and shutting off my mac pro

i just recently brought home my mac pro that i used for work. i have it connected to the the apc i was using my macbook pro with. the model is an APC BACK UP UPS 350. for some reason it keeps shutting the machine down and the ups beeps its tone and doesn't even have time to back up? what should i do? is it my apartment building's power to blame? is it this UPS? any recommendations on another UPS or surge protection?
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Old Apr 9, 2011, 02:24 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by ansirone View Post
i just recently brought home my mac pro that i used for work. i have it connected to the the apc i was using my macbook pro with. the model is an APC BACK UP UPS 350. for some reason it keeps shutting the machine down and the ups beeps its tone and doesn't even have time to back up? what should i do? is it my apartment building's power to blame? is it this UPS? any recommendations on another UPS or surge protection?
I had a similar problem with an APC unit. It would randomly turn off and beep, thought it was the battery in the backup so I replace it and it did the same thing. This only happened AFTER I found the USB cable for the unit and actually connected it to the Mac. I was using it unconnected by USB for a couple years with no problems, after I connected the USB cable...it started shi**ing the bed. I disconnected the USB and all is well again.

If you use an APC unit with your MacPro, don't connect it via USB, just leave it as standalone.
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Old Apr 9, 2011, 04:17 AM   #3
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350VA seems to be a little on the low side. I'm not sure if that unit can handle the approximately 350W to 400W your Pro draws from the line.
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Old Apr 9, 2011, 06:27 AM   #4
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I think that is too small a unit for a Mac pro. I use a 750va and that is really not big enough either. I can only get a few minutes, barely long enough to shut down.

Install the app below and it will tell you how loaded the ups is and what the run time would be.

http://www.apcupsd.com/
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Old Apr 9, 2011, 09:38 AM   #5
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I bought a APC 600 from Sam's club and had the same experience, I took it back and got a new on, all is good. I use the USB cable and the OS recognizes it and show on the status bar
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Old Apr 9, 2011, 10:45 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by ansirone View Post
i just recently brought home my mac pro that i used for work. i have it connected to the the apc i was using my macbook pro with. the model is an APC BACK UP UPS 350. for some reason it keeps shutting the machine down and the ups beeps its tone and doesn't even have time to back up? what should i do? is it my apartment building's power to blame? is it this UPS? any recommendations on another UPS or surge protection?
350 is probably not big enough, and the default setting is probably to shutdown the computer when the UPS is overloaded. I suggest you read the manual.
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Old Apr 9, 2011, 11:49 AM   #7
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Two things... the Back-UPS range is not recommended for Mac Pros anyway as they don't output pure sine wave when on battery and the 350VA is too low for a Mac Pro's power draw.

I would also advise that you check how old the battery is in the UPS - anything over 3 years and you want to check getting it replaced.

If you are looking for a suitable APC UPS, the Smart-UPS SMT1000I model will probably be what you are looking for. APC do a trade-in programme for older UPS models even if not their own.
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Old Apr 10, 2011, 09:43 PM   #8
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I plugged in my 2010 Mac Pro to a Kill A Watt™ meter and on startup, recorded 965 Watts on power-up. It might've even gone above 1000 the previous startup. It settles down to 160-180 Watts when running normally but you need a UPS sized appropriately to handle that huge initial surge. I have a Back-UPS 1300 (all 8 plugs in use) and I think I'll have to get a 1500 to handle the Mac Pro with 7 other peripherals plugged in.

Even by itself you need one bigger than even a 650, much less your 350.
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Old Apr 11, 2011, 03:46 AM   #9
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Two things... the Back-UPS range is not recommended for Mac Pros anyway as they don't output pure sine wave when on battery and the 350VA is too low for a Mac Pro's power draw.
Personally I never had any problem with the BackUPS line any my Pro.
I used a BackUPS 650 for more than half a year before I settled for a bigger SmartUPS (1400 IIRC) to give me a little more time in case of a power out.
Other than only being capable of keeping my Pro alive for a little over 15 minutes, the BackUPS was just fine and the machine itself pulled 280W from the line in idle.
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Old Apr 11, 2011, 10:06 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Riot Nrrrd View Post
I plugged in my 2010 Mac Pro to a Kill A Watt™ meter and on startup, recorded 965 Watts on power-up. It might've even gone above 1000 the previous startup. It settles down to 160-180 Watts when running normally but you need a UPS sized appropriately to handle that huge initial surge. I have a Back-UPS 1300 (all 8 plugs in use) and I think I'll have to get a 1500 to handle the Mac Pro with 7 other peripherals plugged in.

Even by itself you need one bigger than even a 650, much less your 350.
Presumably the system's already running, so there's no need to have enough VA to deal with startup requirements (UPS is designed to assist with preserving data, not starting the system after the power's out ). This isn't a bad idea, but it will increase the costs (even a 1500VA could have trouble producing that much power for startup, particularly for a stepped inverter and/or if the batteries have some age on them).

So if you do want to be able to start the system during a power outtage, then you'd really need to go bigger (next size up is 2000VA). Unfortunately, it means getting an electrician (unless you can do it yourself) to put in a circuit capable of handling the larger unit (i.e. 240V @ 20A). APC does make a unit they call 2000VA (actually 1920), that runs on 120V @ 20A (example). Still need an electrician, but the materials are cheaper (presume the labor isn't).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Transporteur View Post
Personally I never had any problem with the BackUPS line any my Pro.
I used a BackUPS 650 for more than half a year before I settled for a bigger SmartUPS (1400 IIRC) to give me a little more time in case of a power out.
Other than only being capable of keeping my Pro alive for a little over 15 minutes, the BackUPS was just fine and the machine itself pulled 280W from the line in idle.
Over time the stepped inverters in the BackUPS series could damage the MP's PSU though, as it's an active PFC unit (i.e. frequent brown-outs). BTW, I've seen this sort of damage first hand (Seasonic active PFC design @ 1kW).

Just though it worth a mention, particularly as you swapped over to a SmartUPS unit (pure sine wave inverter).
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Old Apr 17, 2011, 04:05 PM   #11
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thanks everyone for the help, i did realize that it didn't have enough voltage but should have thought twice about it. in the mean time would it be safe to use it for the surge protection? any recommendations for an alternative? also, anything thats around in the $100-$200 range? links would be really appreicated! thanks so much!
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Old Apr 17, 2011, 07:52 PM   #12
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thanks everyone for the help, i did realize that it didn't have enough voltage but should have thought twice about it. in the mean time would it be safe to use it for the surge protection? any recommendations for an alternative? also, anything thats around in the $100-$200 range? links would be really appreicated! thanks so much!
Something to consider....flea markets and yard sales are a great source of UPS's of varying sizes. Some folks who have them (and this includes businesses) are not aware the batteries can be replaced, so they look to get rid of them. Only once have I gotten an UPS in this manner and it was worthless....and I've gotten everything from 350 Back-UPS to Smart-Ups 3000 Rackmount. I've even gotten Smart-Ups with the optional network card installed (those are around $400 each).

APC brand batteries are a bit pricy, so....check the Yellow Pages for a battery reseller. I use Batteries Plus (a national chain). They have the batteries in stock, usually half the price of APC labeled batteries, and will dispose of your old batteries.
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Old Apr 17, 2011, 08:08 PM   #13
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this is an outstanding deal and it is back in stock!


http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it..._c=site_search


same unit in black is more then double.

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it..._c=site_search

I purchased 4 of these sold 3 and kept one work great. they work with computers as well as stereo's in fact this is a top product as voted by stereophile magazine.
see quote below


"APC AV S15: $1499 w/battery backup
The S15 is a comprehensive power source, conditioner, and controller that features extensible external power and isolated EMI/RFI filtration for each of its outlet banks. Voltage regulation is accomplished electronically and without the hysteresis or rebound problems of slower, motor-driven compensation. Protected even the heaviest of KR's loads while also eliminating gray colorations and intermittent chassis vibration. "The S15 made the bridged eVo6 into an even better power amplifier-a super amp." (Vol.28 No.9 Review)"





I sold my 3 at 500 each. vann's is a good seller they have a lot in stock around 150 so you can research it for a few days, but it is truly the real deal. Read the reviews on it. Vann's has my review and a lot of other reviews. about 29 almost all 5 stars.

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Old Apr 17, 2011, 08:34 PM   #14
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is the APC BACK-UPS RS BR1500LCD 1500VA/865W UPS System a good one?

i found one on craigslist at a very good price.
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Old Apr 17, 2011, 08:43 PM   #15
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is the APC BACK-UPS RS BR1500LCD 1500VA/865W UPS System a good one?

i found one on craigslist at a very good price.
I'm sure it is fine....I've used APC products in my home and at my workplace for years.

A 1500 is more than enough for your Mac.

If you have a laser printer, do not plug it into the UPS. Anything else you have would be fine.
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Old Apr 18, 2011, 01:40 AM   #16
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Just be aware of two things - age of the battery (which should be changed after 3-ish years, from APC or 3rd party) and the fact that Back-UPS is stepped sine wave which can stress the more modern Mac Pro power supplies and causes undesirable effects when on battery.
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Old Apr 19, 2011, 07:52 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nanofrog View Post
Presumably the system's already running, so there's no need to have enough VA to deal with startup requirements (UPS is designed to assist with preserving data, not starting the system after the power's out ). This isn't a bad idea, but it will increase the costs (even a 1500VA could have trouble producing that much power for startup, particularly for a stepped inverter and/or if the batteries have some age on them).
nanofrog, I respect your RAID prowess, but I think you have me all wrong on this one

I'm not talking about starting up a Mac Pro during a power outage. (If I get a power outage, the Mac Pro is being shut off, not turned on.)

I'm talking about normal usage, when you might require powering the system off and back on for whatever reason.

If a Mac Pro is plugged into an APC unit of some sort, and you shut it down, you have to power it back up again, right?

When you power it back up, you have to go through that initial huge surge, right?

You can't plug it into the wall, power it on, and then once it's up, switchtheplugreallyfastintotheAPCsoitdoesn'tnoticeitwasunpluggedforasec

I have a spare APC 650 unit at home. I plugged my Mac Pro into it. I pressed the power button. The APC gave out a high-pitched squeeeee and the power to the Mac Pro did not come on. That told me its start-up power requirement is higher than the 650 unit's capabilities. That's why I got the Kill A Watt™ meter - to see what sizing I'd need for a UPS to handle that initial power surge.

I do agree with you on the Back-UPS® vs. Smart-UPS® models - it's clear that while my current MacBook Pro and its little accompanying peripherals are perfectly happy hanging off my Back-UPS BX1300G unit, the Mac Pro would rather have the Pure Sine Wave of the Smart-UPS.
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Old Apr 19, 2011, 07:59 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philipma1957 View Post
this is an outstanding deal and it is back in stock!

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it..._c=site_search

Same unit in black is more then double:

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it..._c=site_search

I purchased 4 of these sold 3 and kept one work great. They work with computers as well as stereos, in fact this is a top product as voted by Stereophile magazine.
Hmmn ... I'm a little suspicious of using a UPS A/V unit for a Mac Pro. Notice how it says "Sine Wave" and not "Pure Sine Wave" (like the APC Smart-UPS has). Not saying you're wrong; just that without stronger evidence, my inclination would be to not use one of these with computer equipment like a server (Mac Pro or otherwise). Anyone else?
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Old Apr 19, 2011, 08:20 AM   #19
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nanofrog, I respect your RAID prowess, but I think you have me all wrong on this one

I'm not talking about starting up a Mac Pro during a power outage. (If I get a power outage, the Mac Pro is being shut off, not turned on.)

I'm talking about normal usage, when you might require powering the system off and back on for whatever reason.
I had the impression you meant performing a startup during a power outtage on a Line Interactive type of UPS (BackUPS or SmartUPS).

In the case you describe, the power is back on and the SmartUPS draws its power off of the wall (batteries are switched off in terms of powering the equipment; charging cycle would be active).

The exception to this, is Online/Double Conversion units (they always run off of the batteries + inverter), and must be able to accomodate the startup current (sticking to stand alone models). There is a sub-section of the SmartUPS line that are Online types, but it's clearly stated (labeled SmartUPS Online series - can't miss it IMO ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Nrrrd View Post
Hmmn ... I'm a little suspicious of using a UPS A/V unit for a Mac Pro. Notice how it says "Sine Wave" and not "Pure Sine Wave" (like the APC Smart-UPS has). Not saying you're wrong; just that without stronger evidence, my inclination would be to not use one of these with computer equipment like a server (Mac Pro or otherwise). Anyone else?
It's not targeted as a computer model, but they do work properly (so long as it's not a stepped inverter design you're good, which it isn't).

The issue with stepped vs. pure sine wave is going to become greater IMO due to the increased use of Active PSU's as a means of complying with various energy saver/green power regulations (actual regs to be complied with depend on country of destination). The cheap models are going to go to PWM based for wave modelling (more steps that better approximate a sine wave, and Active PSU's can use without damage - this is what the previously discussed CyberPower unit is using).
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Old Apr 19, 2011, 09:49 AM   #20
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Hmmn ... I'm a little suspicious of using a UPS A/V unit for a Mac Pro. Notice how it says "Sine Wave" and not "Pure Sine Wave" (like the APC Smart-UPS has). Not saying you're wrong; just that without stronger evidence, my inclination would be to not use one of these with computer equipment like a server (Mac Pro or otherwise). Anyone else?
Your method of instant dismissal for this item is incorrect you are taking yourself away from a good deal.

In this case you need to use this quote from CSI Miami

" Trust But Verify" ( 5 points to the first person that names the actor I quoted)


http://www.audioholics.com/news/trad...r-conditioners

http://www.hemagazine.com/node/APCs_...er_conditioner




http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...achapter82.htm

The below is pulled from the link above

...

Then I heard about a new product from a non-audio related company called American Power Conversion Corporation, maker for 20 years of power protection equipment for everything from home computers to large government installations. If you’ve had a computer in your house, it’s almost a surety you’ve had one of their uninterruptible power supplies protecting it.

Not satisfied with being one of the largest companies of this type, they decided to form a branch to produce protection equipment designed especially for audio-video systems. From the looks of it, they have combined the knowledge obtained from their computer UPS products with some excellent research into how home audio-video systems are set up, and came up with their


APC S10 & S15 Power Conditioner With Battery Backup
They realized that audio systems are very prone to signal degradation from less than pure 60 Hz. sine waves, so instead of producing the typical power supply with a square wave or so-called modified sine wave full of harmonics, they did the right thing and produced a pure 60 Hz. sine wave. Then they took the twelve outlets and separated them into five separate isolated banks, consisting of 6 for digital equipment, two for video, two for low power equipment, and two for high powered amplifiers, these latter two having different protection to minimize affecting current draw with high volume surges. Two of the sections were placed on delayed turn-on so that preamps and other source equipment will be fully powered up before the amplifiers so major thumps causing speaker damage won’t occur.

For those fanatics who can hear fan noise, they set up the fan in their unit only to go on when the unit is on battery back-up or in an over-wattage situation. While this is great 99 percent of the time, one of its three minor faults by my standards is that when the fan does come on it is fairly loud. Thus if you want to go off the electrical line you should place the unit somewhere out of noise range. Happily this only occurs on sound peaks, which will mask the noise somewhat.

Then they built in some battery backup to help further the isolation from the mains, smooth power requirements when sudden surges call for extra power and to give some shut-down time for the system if the AC is suddenly removed by power loss so that the amps are not still on when the preamps shut down. For those fanatics who want to completely isolate themselves from the power grid, they added an inlet for daisy-chained battery backup units to give as much off the grid time as required.
To completely isolate the system from over voltage and lightning strikes, they supplied three sets of F plugs for TV cables, Ethernet and phone ports. Surges from all inputs are limited to a maximum of less than 40 volts with a 6000-Volt strike, far below the standard for other units.

The back of the unit also has a light showing faulty grounding. It came on when I used one of my high end power cords, which made me realize that I had cut off the grounding pin previously because the equipment it was being used on gave a 60 Hz. hum. Obviously the unit wants the ground to be there to shunt noise away from the system.

They supply an excellent 12 gauge AC cord and have an IEC plug for those high-enders wishing to use specialty cords. During my trials, there was no difference in sound between their AC cable and several high-end cables tried. Save your money.

The front of the unit is a separate panel that snaps into place and has all of the controls and an LCD screen. While the vacuum fluorescent display (VFD) is very bright, they can be turned off so that they don’t interfere with late night listening or viewing. Unhappily, minor fault # 2 is that a bright blue ring light around the on-off button stays on, which is somewhat distracting. It should cut off with the other lights. Put some black tape over it.



So What Does The Unit Do?
First, it corrects for voltage changes, and actually shows the in and output voltages on the VFD. The unit will keep 118 to 122 Volts between 90 to 135 Volts and suppress surges when the power turns off and comes back on. While we have the poorest power line noise in my area, far surpassing New York’s according to fellow audiophiles who’ve visited here, the voltage in my area is fairly stable with minimal brown-outs. We did have a couple of quick power drops at which times the house lights dimmed for several seconds, the unit recorded an average input of 105 Volts, with an output of a steady 118 volts. The only difference with the unit was that the fan turned on and the unit made up for the lowered voltage by adding juice from the batteries, rather than the use of a variable transformer like many other units. It did this very quickly as even the home theater computer that was attached to the unit didn’t stutter.

Second, it prevents voltage surges not only through the AC, but also from external antennas, cable TV hookups, telephone and Ethernet connections to external computers. A couple of years ago, we had a surge through my C-band satellite dish due to a lightning strike a mile away from the house, that came in through the antenna cable which wiped out a VCR and the satellite receiver. APC guarantees against this problem.
Third, it supplies 900 watts average of clean power. And i do mean clean!!! If you’ve read my previous articles, you know that my system is already very isolated from AC noise, using the THOR unit from Nordost, two Environmental Potentials 2450 units at the system and their 2050 wave correction unit at my junction box, and high end audio cables and Walker Audio Velocitors on all equipment, so the system should have optimal isolation from the worst the power company can dish out.
Well this unit surpasses all of them when used alone and actually cleans up the power further when used in addition to the above. I wouldn’t have believed it as the system was sounding superb before. Adding the APC decreased noise coming from the speakers further to the point of inaudibility of any extraneous sound. This allows more ambient and very low-level information to come through which adds to the realism of the presentation. In addition, bass became tighter and more lifelike, less boomy and chestier. High frequency hash disappeared. On surround there was a more life-like presentation of three-dimensional space.
Clark Johnsen was over last night and brought a 5.1 channel SACD recording from Ray Kimber using his ISOMIKE system, and on one of the bands Ray has singers in a circle around the mikes saying their names. This is the first time when I actually could hear a true image of a person coming from between the front and side speakers; something some audio experts say cannot be done. On two channel recordings, one can perceive a definite concert hall space out to beyond the listener on great recordings, something I’ve only heard rarely late at night. That’s life-like reproduction of space. Used alone, without any of the other pieces of equipment but with the high-end cords, the unit does as well as all of the other pieces of equipment combined at improving the sound, and this without any of the adverse effects heard previously with other line cleaners.
For the average audio video system one unit will be adequate, but for some high enders with mega-watt amplifiers, or others, such as me, with a 7.1 channel system with seven subwoofers and a 9-inch CRT projector, one unit may not be enough. Happily, the unit reads out the wattage used and when it goes over about 920 watts will beep, turn on its lights and add battery backup, allowing surges up to about 1800 watts before pooping out. Unhappily it keeps making both beeping and fan noise after a few seconds, so it shouldn’t be used in over wattage situations for long periods of time. The company has assured me that any short-term over wattage situations will not harm the unit. I guarantee you that if you have a big subwoofer and watch action movies, over wattage will occur. For my situation, the company sent me a second unit, and using the wattage meters, and the fact most of my amps are Class A tubes requiring a continuous wattage, I was able to almost balance perfectly my system such that one unit was using an average of 768 and the other 802 watts. As one subwoofer amp was attached to each unit, even on Star Wars III, both peaked out in short bursts at about 1600 watts without ill effects, except for the listeners, some of whom had damp pants.

I hope this will be my last column on electricity as this unit alone has improved my system to the point where I could live with it forever, and with the addition of the THOR and my various high end power cords, seems to have solved all of my AC problems. Whether it will do the same for you and whether its worth its $1499 list price to you really depends on how polluted your AC is and how much of an audio fanatic you are. This unit is the best AC cleaner that I’ve encountered and both will be staying in my system. If it had been available three months ago, the THOR wouldn’t have been purchased, and if 10 years ago my bank account would be significantly stronger today.

For those with smaller systems, the S-10 may be sufficient as it is built to the same standards, just with a lower wattage rating.

I give it my highest recommendation.




This piece of equipment for this price is a ridiculously good deal.

Note this is an edit; Why because the above are reviews. I went on site and APC lists their models as sine wave or stepped sine wave


http://www.apc.com/products/apcav/pr...ase_sku=J10BLK
J10 stepped sine wave

http://www.apc.com/products/apcav/pr...l&base_sku=S10
s10 sine wave


http://www.apc.com/products/apcav/pr...ase_sku=J15BLK

J15 stepped sine wave

http://www.apc.com/products/apcav/pr...l&base_sku=S15

s15 sine wave

(((((( To further my trust but verify method I called APC support. First did a chat then was given a number 1 800 555 2725 to call spoke with a nice polite tech named Jonathan . He assured me All apc s units are pure sine wave all j units are stepped. They will send an email which I will post. He also let me know that the s10 and s15 use the same batteries the s10 has a small inverter then the s15. HE said all of these use pure sine wave not stepped. He is also sending me a followup email.



plus he said the units are basically clones of the



APC SMART-UPS XL 1400VA RM 3U 120V


http://www.apc.com/products/resource...u=SU1400RMXL3U )))))))

Buy it if you need it. from vanns.com these will sell out.. they had 151 yesterday now they have 144


http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it..._c=site_search

☟☟☟☟☟

one last edit.

Jonathan F of APC Sent me a follow-up email stating that the apc s15 and s10 have pure sine wave output. Out of privacy concerns i won't post it. But if they send me an email they would do it for anyone else .


So as far as I am concerned if you need a unit the apc s15 is the one.

Last edited by philipma1957; Apr 19, 2011 at 11:04 AM.
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Old Apr 19, 2011, 03:17 PM   #21
Riot Nrrrd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nanofrog View Post
I had the impression you meant performing a startup during a power outtage on a Line Interactive type of UPS (BackUPS or SmartUPS).

In the case you describe, the power is back on and the SmartUPS draws its power off of the wall (batteries are switched off in terms of powering the equipment; charging cycle would be active).

The exception to this, is Online/Double Conversion units (they always run off of the batteries + inverter), and must be able to accomodate the startup current (sticking to stand alone models). There is a sub-section of the SmartUPS line that are Online types, but it's clearly stated (labeled SmartUPS Online series - can't miss it IMO ).
I'm still not quite sure I follow you. (I just woke up )

I have a Mac Pro. I don't want to plug it directly into the wall. I want to buy a UPS for it, and one with battery-backup so that I get a few minutes to do an orderly shutdown if the power goes out. (I've had that happen twice this year already.)

In normal usage you will power it off and turn it back on occasionally. If it is connected through the UPS, the UPS has to handle the load put on it by that initial power-up surge, right? So don't you have it to size it appropriately to handle that initial surge?

Like I said, connected through an APC Back-UPS Pro 650 it would not power up. I took the scream of the UPS and the fact that the Mac Pro did not power up to be evidence that the initial surge overloaded the UPS because it was not the appropriate size/wattage. Then the Kill A Watt™ meter briefly read 965 when connected straight to the wall. Ergo don't I need a UPS that can handle that momentary 965-1000+ Watt load?
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Old Apr 19, 2011, 03:30 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philipma1957 View Post
Your method of instant dismissal for this item is incorrect you are taking yourself away from a good deal.
Not instant dismissal; merely caution.

It looks like an A/V unit, for one; for another, you can buy 1500VA units from APC (on the "other side of the house") for about US $450 - so what makes the S15 a $1,400 MSRP unit when these others (that aren't labeled "AV") go for $450?

I agree it's a great deal for what it is; looks like a perfect replacement for the Belkin PureAV™ AP30800FC10 UPS w/ battery backup I have in my living room. But recommending an AV unit for computer use just makes me initially hesitant without additional supporting data, that's all

Can you ask Jonathan F. one question? Can the unit be turned on its side? That's another thing in my case; my Belkin unit is safely inside my Home Theater cabinet, whereas whatever I use for my computer pretty much needs to be vertical for space reasons, and resistant to floor Dust Bunnies

(BTW, I've bought stuff from Vann's myself - as a vendor they are very reputable)
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Old Apr 19, 2011, 04:26 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Nrrrd View Post
I'm still not quite sure I follow you. (I just woke up )
I think the confusion is due to the fact you don't understand that there are different types of UPS's, nor how each one works (this is fine).

There's multiple types, but what I'm dealing with in the previous post, are the differences between Line Interactive and Online/Double Conversion units. There are others, such as Offline/Standby, which is junk (cheapest out there, and it's for a reason).

Rather than explain it, I'll refer you to the UPS wiki (pay particular attention to the Line Interactive and Online/Double Conversion descriptions). It's a good starting point anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Nrrrd View Post
I have a Mac Pro. I don't want to plug it directly into the wall. I want to buy a UPS for it, and one with battery-backup so that I get a few minutes to do an orderly shutdown if the power goes out. (I've had that happen twice this year already.)
I realize this. But all of the units you see for sale except the Online/Double Conversion units use the wall when the voltage is within specification (stand alone units such as BackUPS or SmartUPS).

What this means is, when the power is on (no outage or brown out), the computer is on the wall, even when it's protected by the UPS. There's noise reduction circuits as well as other stuff in there, such as surge suppression and voltage monitoring that's used to trigger the AVR (Automatic Voltage Regulation = stepped transformer to pull up the AC voltage before it's too low to trigger the batteries + inverter).

An Online/Double Conversion unit always runs off of the batteries + inverter, no matter what's going on at the wall (isolates the equipment from the wall, which is a better way to go). Unfortunately, it's also more expensive due to the duty cycle the inverter's under.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Nrrrd View Post
In normal usage you will power it off and turn it back on occasionally. If it is connected through the UPS, the UPS has to handle the load put on it by that initial power-up surge, right? So don't you have it to size it appropriately to handle that initial surge?
It depends on the type of UPS you're using.

For a Line Interactive, No. So long as the wall voltage isn't below the setting in the UPS's controller board (typically 90VAC), then it's running off fo the wall (when it's low, but above the setting that triggers the batteries + inverter, it uses the stepped transformer to pull up the voltage to an acceptable level).

For an Online/Double Conversion unit, Yes. As the equipment is always running off of the batteries + inverter, it does have to handle the startup current of the equipment attached to it. This is why you may need a larger unit with this type, though they've accounted for this with things like storage capacitance (keeps additional power on tap for brief periods of time in the millisecond range for startup). This is where a Kill-A-Watt meter is really handy, as you get a real value for both startup and typical power usage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Nrrrd View Post
Like I said, connected through an APC Back-UPS Pro 650 it would not power up. I took the scream of the UPS and the fact that the Mac Pro did not power up to be evidence that the initial surge overloaded the UPS because it was not the appropriate size/wattage. Then the Kill A Watt™ meter briefly read 965 when connected straight to the wall. Ergo don't I need a UPS that can handle that momentary 965-1000+ Watt load?
That alarm means either:
  • Unit was on battery (and it didn't have enough power to handle the startup load, as at best, that unit's only good for 400W off of the inverter)
  • Low Battery
You can also pay attention to the LED's, and see what those tell you. I'd need more information to go from here (could be weak batteries, bad controller board, or too much draw on the wall that the unit saw as too low a voltage and did try to switch to the inverter, or even some combination).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Nrrrd View Post
Can the unit be turned on its side?
Yes, as the batteries are sealed.
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Old Apr 19, 2011, 04:31 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Nrrrd View Post
Not instant dismissal; merely caution.

It looks like an A/V unit, for one; for another, you can buy 1500VA units from APC (on the "other side of the house") for about US $450 - so what makes the S15 a $1,400 MSRP unit when these others (that aren't labeled "AV") go for $450?

I agree it's a great deal for what it is; looks like a perfect replacement for the Belkin PureAV™ AP30800FC10 UPS w/ battery backup I have in my living room. But recommending an AV unit for computer use just makes me initially hesitant without additional supporting data, that's all

Can you ask Jonathan F. one question? Can the unit be turned on its side? That's another thing in my case; my Belkin unit is safely inside my Home Theater cabinet, whereas whatever I use for my computer pretty much needs to be vertical for space reasons, and resistant to floor Dust Bunnies

(BTW, I've bought stuff from Vann's myself - as a vendor they are very reputable)
AS always typing on the internet is hard to convey meaning. Leave a sentence out or just one word and you or I can sound or read wrong. Thanks for taking time to read my long reply and realize I was being helpful and your reply shows me the same about you.

I will email Jon F at Apc and ask him. I know the batteries are sealed so I would guess yes. It is 530pm east coast time so if he does not get back to me today I am sure he will tomorrow the last time vanns got these in stock they sold out in 11 or 12 days. I will send a pm to you on Weds.
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Old Apr 21, 2011, 05:35 PM   #25
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philipma1957

Were you going to PM me?

(I'll get to your and nanofrog's comments when I can ... been busy)
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