Racial Segregation in Schools the way Forward?

[mpw]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4326007.stm

...Trevor Phillips, head of the Commission for Racial Equality, suggested they might benefit from such a move, which had been tested in the United States...

I couldn't see this being discussed elsewhere in the forums but thought it might be of interest.

Does anybody think this would actually have been a good idea, and if so why?

Seemed doomed to failure when I first heard about it a few days ago.

[Applespider]

Looking at it from its most positive angle, it may help Afro-Caribbean kids be more comfortable in the classroom, less disruptive and develop more self esteem. It's been shown in the past that girls and boys learn better in a segregated atmosphere in certain classes. Who's to say that different cultures don't learn better when separated in certain classes?

From its most negative angle, I can see exactly why this could be a disaster. Schools would have to be very careful that both 'white' and Afro-Caribbean' classes had teachers of the same standard to avoid charges of racism.

I'd think it was very important though to ensure that the school as a whole was fully integrated in its social activities and other classes

[Blue Velvet]

What about kids of mixed parentage?
Does that mean getting into a ridiculous apartheid-type situation where if you're not quite dark enough, you're coloured?

What about the Afro-Carribean boys who are doing perfectly well at school?

Why not address the issue of children who are not fullfilling their potential through education rather than making it a race issue?

[MOFS]

Originally Posted by Blue Velvet

What about kids of mixed parentage?
Does that mean getting into a ridiculous apartheid-type situation where if you're not quite dark enough, you're coloured?

What about the Afro-Carribean boys who are doing perfectly well at school?

Why not address the issue of children who are not fullfilling their potential through education rather than making it a race issue?

Absoulutely. What about if there's a really bright Afro-Carribean boy in this hypothetical segregated class (a real possibility)? Does this kid get bumped into the "white" (goodness knows I hate that word - of European origin?) class - or is this an excuse just to separate.

In my opinion, its just lazy decision making. If kids aren't performing well, separate them into sets, where they can get specialised teaching to their ability - regardless of their gender, race etc. I still believe that part of this problem is exacerbated by the lack of school sports facilities causing problems for boys at school in particular.

[Lyle]

Originally Posted by Blue Velvet

Why not address the issue of children who are not fullfilling their potential through education rather than making it a race issue?

I think that sums up my feelings on the issue, so I won't add to that.

I am a little curious about where this approach has been tested in the U.S. (as is claimed in the article).

[camobag]

Implementing racial segregation would further the distinction between blacks and whites. That distinction would further racism. Forcing young white children to go to "white schools" and black children to theirs would send the message that blacks and whites are so different that they can't learn or work together. Imagine growing up in such a school. You don't have to look far, just in our history books (to paraphrase: "it didn't go well"). We are all Americans and humans and should send the message to the next generation that we are all in this together. Although we are different, that doesn't mean that we should have separate schools for black children and white children. Integrating schools was a great step for America and has made a direct blow to racism and should be continued to further a united, peaceful community.

[crazytom]

Originally Posted by camobag

<snip> Forcing young white children to go to "white schools" and black children to theirs would send the message that blacks and whites are so different that they can't learn or work together. Imagine growing up in such a school. </snip>

I live in a community that is just the opposite. There are geographical locations that have high concentrations of whites and blacks. The communities solution: spend mass amounts of money to bus kids all over the town to even out the racial profile of the schools. There's kids that live 2 blocks from a school (sometimes they WANT to attend that school) and they are being bussed 5 miles to another school just to make the politically correct happy....the way I see it, they're being forced to go to another school BECAUSE they're black or white. It's absurd.

[mpw]

Originally Posted by camobag

....We are all Americans and humans...

I'll go with we're all human, but Americans?

[rainman::|:|]

This debate has hit the gay community as well, with the Harvey Milk school for gays/perceived gays (yeah, they do have straight people, but not many)... Should the protection and feelings of security take precedent over social integration? Can we force kids to be on the "front lines", so to speak? What would such a move do to the community, how might it alienate the population affected, and how are they treated now. Tough questions, but I'm glad they're at least exploring the options. While I doubt such segregation could ever be a long-term solution, it may be helpful in particular areas for short periods of time... then again, it may make things worse there...

[brap]

But Shahid Malik, chairman of the Labour Party's ethnic minority forum and a former CRE commissioner, said "many African-Caribbean people would feel it was a debate whose time had come".

Obviously the defeat of apartheid (for but one example) had no symbolic effect on this joker.

Speaking on BBC's Inside Out programme Mr Phillips had also suggested black fathers not living with their sons should be denied access to them if they refused to attend parents' evenings.

How is this a racial issue? There are plenty of bad white parents, too.

And he called for more male black teachers, tempting them with extra cash if necessary.

Equal opportunities my arse. If this goes through there should be outrage of the same calibre as if it were ethnicity-reversed.

[PlaceofDis]

i thought that there was no such thing as race? unless of course you are defining it as different cultures.....in which case there would have to be a lot of schools created for each culture.....

there is nothing genetically different in people, just mindsets that are different and this would only re-enforce those mindsets, which aren't very good in my opinion in the first place.....

[angelneo]

The first friend I meet when a 6 year old me first start going to school was an indian. He remained my best friend until we got separated to different schools 6 years later and we lost contact. I remembered asking him to teach me a few Tamil for conversational purpose which I can still recalled. I remembered I had a fun "arch-nemesis" relationship with one of my malay friend. I remembered that skin colour wasn't even an issue when I was that young, everyone looks the same to me. It wasn't until much later that I formed perception about different race. Why should we force segregation onto children at such an young age?

[iSaint]

I think I'd rather see seperate male/female classrooms. Keep all the hormones seperated for awhile.

[JeffTL]

Originally Posted by PlaceofDis

i thought that there was no such thing as race? unless of course you are defining it as different cultures.....in which case there would have to be a lot of schools created for each culture.....

there is nothing genetically different in people, just mindsets that are different and this would only re-enforce those mindsets, which aren't very good in my opinion in the first place.....

Race as it is generally understood in modern times is really just some make-believe cooked up by 19th century bigoted protoanthropologists who couldn't quite get their heads around ethnic diversity, and so they decided to be racialists...and racists.

As far as trying to help anyone is concerned, you're better off looking at class -- throw race out the window and you're left with ethnicity (generally irrelevant for non-immigrants), social class (hard to measure), and economic class (relatively easy to measure). By what should we measure? The latter.

Rich people often, though by no means always, do better in school than poor people.

[Savage Henry]

I'm a bit cloudy on the subject here, but should the remit of the Commission for Racial Equality be one of improving 'equality' rather than the increasing of segregation? This could come back to haunt Trevor Phillips if he personalises this too much.

[plastique45]

Originally Posted by mpw

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4326007.stm



I couldn't see this being discussed elsewhere in the forums but thought it might be of interest.

Does anybody think this would actually have been a good idea, and if so why?

Seemed doomed to failure when I first heard about it a few days ago.

Yeah, and I think Ethnic Cleansing would also help spruce up the economy...

[Pismo]

I can't believe this crap is still being talked about and is still a problem. People should never be judged on the color of their skin and kids should not be segregated in schools based on that.

The only segregation that should take place is keeping the troubled kids in a different school. They need special attention and can be a distraction when mixed with kids who don't have social/learning dissabilities. If you went to a public school, you'll know what I mean.

[crazytom]

The problem comes in when a group of students fail and they just ~happen~ to be of a certain ethnicity....then what? Someone's gonna scream racism...More often than not, this does happen. Mainly it's socio-economic, but even that can follow lines of race. The best thing the education system could do would be to quit looking at race...for any reason.

[Nickygoat]

Originally Posted by crazytom

The problem comes in when a group of students fail and they just ~happen~ to be of a certain ethnicity....then what? Someone's gonna scream racism...More often than not, this does happen. Mainly it's socio-economic, but even that can follow lines of race. The best thing the education system could do would be to quit looking at race...for any reason.

not always. Trevor Philips is trying to understand why male afro/caribbean students do far worse educationally than other ethnic minorities - including female afro caribbeans. Shouting racism isn't the answer. In the UK most ethnic minority students (Asian, South East Asian) do far better than the "indigenous" population. They, in turn do better than afro caribbean males but not females. Studies have shown that mixed sex classes underperform compared to single sex, regardless of ethnicity, but in whatever situation afro caribbean boys are the worst off. Anything that can remedy that situation must be considered. Having said that, I think this isn't the way forward. The UK education system is in a complete mess and anything that will improve standards must be looked at. And not via the current way - lowering all the pass marks and praising how many kids have "excelled". Just my 2p

[crazytom]

Originally Posted by Nickygoat

<snip>
Anything that can remedy that situation must be considered.
<snip>

Heh, heh. Just don't adopt the US "Leave No Child Behind" shell game: a student fails, the school loses funding, the child gets passed to another school where they will more than likely fail again.

I think if the education system is going to be fixed, we cannot look at age or race. The way to educate would be to have 'levels' of each subject matter and do away with a grade level that is tied to age. Each child would be required to reach a certain level, but would also be allowed to quickly advance through levels that are easily learned. For example, there would be Levels 1-25 of math. A child would only be allowed to advance to the next Math level once they proved proficiency. In a 'Math 10' class, there could be children between the ages of 10 and 15. A child could be at math 10, history 5, art 25, reading 8...there'd be no stigma of holding the child back a grade if he/she missed in one subject...they'd only have to take that subject until they prove proficiency.

We need to make school more like the real world: how many times have you socially dealt with people that were all your age? (outside of school) I agree with Nickygoat in that we can't lower the standards to get a better passing rate...but with a multi-level system, the pitfall (to our politicians) is there's no real way to test a demographic of students to see how they're doing on the whole....it could only be individual achievement---to be overseen by the most important people: the parents.