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Old Jul 5, 2011, 09:35 AM   #1
Sdashiki
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Custom PCBs and software

Anyone familiar with doing custom PCBs for prototyping and projects?

Ive been working in an app, DipTrace, to create the schematic and hopefully the PCB layout file for printing...but could use a little guidance from someone with a little experience so I dont screw it up royally.

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Old Jul 5, 2011, 04:23 PM   #2
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There are a bunch of us hardware types around here. Can you describe the project a bit more?

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Old Jul 5, 2011, 10:32 PM   #3
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Ive since switched to Eagle and have everything laid out in the schematic and in the PCB layout file.

The issue I suppose I have is matching real world parts from, say, Mouser.com to the ones in my Eagle PCB layout. I dont want to buy a 1.8w axial resistor and find it doesnt fit the printed board! But res and caps are easy to match in Eagle I think, its the transistor, zener and solder pads I may be having issues with.

As well, I probably could use a little newb help with making sure the layout is even "kosher" for what I need. Like is it ok to have X here and Y there, etc.
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Old Jul 6, 2011, 12:16 AM   #4
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The issue I suppose I have is matching real world parts from, say, Mouser.com to the ones in my Eagle PCB layout. I dont want to buy a 1.8w axial resistor and find it doesnt fit the printed board! But res and caps are easy to match in Eagle I think, its the transistor, zener and solder pads I may be having issues with.
All the parts I've ever bought from Mouser (or Digikey, or others) have a downloadable datasheet. It's usually linked to from the Mouser part page. It will have all the measurements, pinouts, etc. If you don't know how to read a datasheet, you'll be in trouble.


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As well, I probably could use a little newb help with making sure the layout is even "kosher" for what I need. Like is it ok to have X here and Y there, etc.
I don't know what you mean by "X" or "Y". Do you mean a component, a pad, a via, what?
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Old Jul 6, 2011, 06:19 AM   #5
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All the parts I've ever bought from Mouser (or Digikey, or others) have a downloadable datasheet. It's usually linked to from the Mouser part page. It will have all the measurements, pinouts, etc. If you don't know how to read a datasheet, you'll be in trouble.
This. If you have a specific question, ask.

So all we know so far is that it is a board with several through hole discrete parts. Since you mention software there must also be a microcontroller or something like that on there. Is that also TH/DIP? (edit: or was that a reference to DipTrace?)

How big is the board? How many layers? What kind(s) of power (volts & amps)? How will it be mounted/packaged? ...

You haven't given us much to go on.

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Old Jul 6, 2011, 09:05 AM   #6
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Board size:
0.75" x 1.5" (layers? no clue)

Power:
4.5v

Controller:
PIC12f629 (8 pin DIL socket on PCB)

Components:

5 resistors (found a 5 res SIP), 2 caps, 2 zeners, 1 darlington transistor


I can read a datasheet fine, but correlating the sizes in Eagle...idgi. Finding the right sizes Zener and transistor seems to be the hardest part right now.

Ive got a board laid out, but finding the real world parts to match the spacing and size...how!? Maybe I am thinking too hard.

And when making a PCB isnt it good practice to have certain things laid out in certain ways to make the wiring most efficient? This is new territory for me.
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Old Jul 6, 2011, 09:42 AM   #7
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A lot of components are of a standard size. Dig through the standard Eagle libraries and find your components, then look at the specs and datasheets to verify they match. Eagle also is pretty good about showing you sizes on the screen, and I'm pretty sure you can print the layout to paper to see if your components fit. Not to sound rude, but I think you may be making it harder than it is.

Another thing that helps me when tracking down a component in Eagle is to download an Eagle library from one of the smaller distributors. Sparkfun and Adafruit both have libraries that pare down the choices, and most times the components you will use for all but the most obscure parts will be listed there. And remember, there are standard size packages for a reason. A 14 pin DIP is a 14 pin DIP, no matter what the IC is doing.

As far as placing the parts on a PCB, that is an art and not a science. (Well, there is *some* science...) I take inspiration from other boards--I lay things out after looking at other PCBs, just to see how they did it. And when it comes time for the traces, I straight out cheat. Auto-route. That gives me a starting point. It's nothing to go back and change things up a bit if needed. All that being said, everything I've done is pretty drop-dead simple, so this advice may not translate to more complicated layouts.

Good luck! It was/is sometimes very intimidating. I just think about it this way: I'm prototyping. Prototypes are never right the first time (unless you are insanely lucky or again, super simple). Learn more each time you do it and keep up the fight!
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Old Jul 6, 2011, 10:31 AM   #8
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Thanks, a kick in the pants is always helpful!
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Old Jul 6, 2011, 10:41 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Sdashiki View Post
Ive got a board laid out, but finding the real world parts to match the spacing and size...how!? Maybe I am thinking too hard.
That's because you're doing it backwards. Select the parts then make the layout fit the parts you have identified.

From the sound of it you are looking at this as a 1 or 2 (metal) layer board. This might not be ideal. More layers can get you more flexible routing as well as better shielding. However a 2 layer board is probably fine for something this simple.

Have you identified a board house yet?

Frankly, I would not be surprised if you could not just use an SOIC version of the PIC on a proto board that allows for some passives around it. Schmartboard and Bellin Dynamic Systems (beldynsys.com) or Capital Advanced Technologies come to mind.

EDIT: I see part placement, but no routing in the pic you posted. Are you planning to route using wires? If not, you need to look at it with at least the "rats" which show connectivity turned on.

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Old Jul 6, 2011, 11:36 AM   #10
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I did the schematic first, but some parts were generic so I do have to go back and make them real parts. I suppose I jumped ahead just to be sure i COULD do it.

There is wiring done, the schematic is functional, I just turned off the names and wires so you could see the layout better. But I have not done any actual tracing yet.


custompcb.com quoted me a fair price on 5-10 units of this size.
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Old Jul 6, 2011, 12:04 PM   #11
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Ok, so you are at what I would usually call initial part placement. You have a concept and need to select specific components to tweak your routing and placement.

This is where the art bit comes in as Thom_Edwards suggests.

The routing/wiring is the principal concern at layout, so hiding it doesn't do you any good.

Talk to a human at CustomPCB if you haven't already. My guess is that you can get 50-100 boards for a few bucks more than they would charge for 10. (I played with their online quote tool to verify this.)

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Old Jul 6, 2011, 12:41 PM   #12
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First question I'd ask is if you really need a custom PCB for this project. What's so special about this design that a general-purpose manufactured PIC prototyping board (with perhaps a few pads for customizations) wouldn't work?

You haven't stated your background: software, hardware, how much analog/digital electronic knowledge?

I'm a software engineer with a lot of hardware exposure. So, I've done some circuit design and even layed out a couple of boards, in the "old days" using tape.

Hope this isn't too elementary, but without further details... (and will help others understand the conversation)...

The most simple boards can be done single-sided, all of the traces on one side. You would use jumper wires when traces have to cross.

Next step up is double-sided, which might or might not have plated through-holes. Without plated thru-holes, you need to solder components (or jumpers) on both sides of the board. Plated through-holes create jumpers between layers by literally plating the insides thru-holes.

Most commercial PCBs today are a minimum of 4 layers, with dedicated ground and power planes. It's desirable for ground and power traces to be as wide as possible. Dedicated planes give each the maximum possible surface area. (There are just little rings cut-out around thru-holes between different layers.)

The data sheets for your active components - especially processors - will typically include some specific layout advice. Areas of typical concern are power and ground connections, mixed analog/digital (keep them apart), shielding (again particularly with analog/digital - for example, you might be told to place a shield in a specific place under a chip), and clock/oscillator connections.
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Old Jul 6, 2011, 12:42 PM   #13
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Cost is not the factor, its waste.

I have to make sure the placement and size of the board itself is good for the place it will take up inside the device. And having 10 duds is better than 100.

The guy at custompcb and I emailed directly for a good while making sure they can do what I want and the costs.

The size is the issue, not so much the complicated nature. I need these exact solder pads for specific connections and everything needs to fit this super tiny space.

Im just a tinkerer with electrical stuff. I do a fair amount of soldering with my hobby of working on cameras, but nothing this deep.

This is truly a simplistic design, nothing needs to be rock solid or perfect. Just need these components, wired properly together, in this small space. Commercial level, this does not need to be...unless the simple needs of the design warrant such cost?
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Old Jul 6, 2011, 04:14 PM   #14
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Cost is not the factor, its waste.
Surprisingly waste is usually the reason why getting more is cheaper per unit.

Many fabrication houses will fab a whole panel no matter how many circuits you ask for. i.e. they will either make 100 of your little board just to sell you 5-10, because it fits their process better to handle a full panel (panels are typically somewhere in the letter to ledger page size range). Or they will leave the rest of the panel unprocessed and throw it away (less likely).

This may not be the case with custompcb, but it has been a real issue for me in the past. If they are really set up for low volume they may bundle your job with others to take better advantage of the raw materials, but I'm sure they won't be processing each one of your tiny boards individually. They will be arrayed somehow and processed together.

It would have been helpful if you had given all of the context up front rather than having to pull it out of you step by step.

Everything here is a trade. Since your external interface (the solder pads on the edges) do not appear to be through-hole, you might have made the choice to skip the holes altogether and using SMT parts (SOIC for the PIC and say 1206 for the discrete components so as not to make it too hard to hand solder). The board is easier to make (no holes to line up with the metal) and in many cases the components are actually cheaper, smaller (i.e. easier to route) and more readily available than through-hole parts these days

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Old Jul 6, 2011, 04:44 PM   #15
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Ive just always been leery of smd soldering because I think my hand shakes a bit too much at that size. Though you are probably right it makes the most sense here.

If I have solder pads, having through hole would be an extra step in the manufacturing process which just makes the whole thing more complicated for me to design in Eagle, correct?


The price given was based on the size of the PCB, didnt care what went on it apparently. So SMD or not, it doesnt seem to change the pricing.

Now pricing of the components and overall size of the package in the end does matter...but I suppose we are talking pennies (1/8 axial vs 1206). And as long as this stuff does fit to the size I need, perhaps going SMD will be after this small run.
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Old Jul 6, 2011, 04:56 PM   #16
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If I have solder pads, having through hole would be an extra step in the manufacturing process which just makes the whole thing more complicated for me to design in Eagle, correct?
There should be a footprint for a solder pad with a through-hole that should already exist or you should be able to make one so that it doesn't impact things on your end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdashiki View Post
The price given was based on the size of the PCB, didnt care what went on it apparently. So SMD or not, it doesnt seem to change the pricing.

Now pricing of the components and overall size of the package in the end does matter...but I suppose we are talking pennies (1/8 axial vs 1206). And as long as this stuff does fit to the size I need, perhaps going SMD will be after this small run.
This probably implies that it is largely automated.

What I'm seeing for a lot of components I want to use in designs is that the parts just aren't readily available in DIP anymore.

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Old Jul 8, 2011, 09:17 AM   #17
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it was a tight squeeze, but it looks like everything fits.

Since the solder pads and layer 1 wires are RED...how does the printer know to cover the wires over, but not the pads? Like obviously I only want the pads to be exposed.

And using through hole stuff...am I to understand that the printer is going to drill holes for the component's pins properly because it knows the parts I have used?
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Old Jul 8, 2011, 10:05 AM   #18
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Generally your next step is to generate Gerber files.

There, all the metal on Layer 1 should be one color at that point and a separate file is generated for your solder mask, and yet another for silk screen, and yet another for the drill instructions (locations, sizes)

The relationships between all of these is defined in your component footprints, but you should check the Gerbers too since that is what actually gets "printed".

In the old days we would actually print them on acetate and overlay them for final checks. Glad we can do that electronically now.

Edit: is there any current flowing in this circuit? The traces (wires) look mighty fine. I would tend to fatten them up and use shapes where possible. Also even for a simple board like this I'd tend to use the back side as ground and do a ground fill on the front side.

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Old Jul 8, 2011, 11:09 AM   #19
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the layering masks makes sense, and I actually would prefer acetate overlays just for the tangibility.

the lower right +/- is the 4.5v in from AAA batteries...

should I fatten any wire which has room for such enlargement, or just the power connections?

edit: in looking into copper pouring, ive traced a polygon around the inner border of the board, ratsnested it and saw a bunch of blue polygons created. Which appear to become a ground plane (when connected to that NET) but its difficult to see whether that actually does what it needs to, connection wise...some things which I know connect to - are still going thru other components first, and not directly to the new plane.
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Old Jul 8, 2011, 12:08 PM   #20
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A few areas of that layout look problematic to me.

The problem is you have traces going very close to pads that will have external wires soldered onto them. A solder mask isn't precise enough to fully protect those traces, so the likelihood of a short due to errant solder bridging seems high to me.

The problem areas are:
1. Top, near the pad labeled "C".
2. Left side, the trace that runs next to the pads labeled + and -.
3. Lower right, the trace that runs around the pad labeled +.

#3 strikes me as the worst, because a short here will apply full unlimited and unfused Vcc to whatever that trace is carrying. A typical AAA battery can easily deliver a few amps of current when shorted.

You should reroute the traces so there is never a trace passing between one of these I/O pads and the board edge.
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Old Jul 8, 2011, 12:17 PM   #21
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I was staring at it a bit more.

Is there an easy way you could do a pin swap in your resistor array to avoid the route by "C" it looks like the three pads go to resistors just to the right of the pad. If those could be straightened you could get a nice direct shot.

I agree with chown33 that the thin routes near the edge and between pads are a liability.

Alternatively some of the routes you have as narrow lines near the edge could be moved to the backside with vias.

Edit: that's what I get for reading on my phone. I didn't notice you already had blue traces on the back.


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Old Jul 8, 2011, 01:36 PM   #22
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This is kind of fun...like a 3D puzzle I cant ever see in 3D!

And as long as the wire is blue, it can run near the solder pads because its a layer below, right?
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Old Jul 8, 2011, 01:54 PM   #23
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Of these, are either preferable over the other?
I see no great advantage one way or the other.


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And as long as the wire is blue, it can run near the solder pads because its a layer below, right?
It's the other side of the board, so a solder bridge is very unlikely.


The trace that runs from the + pad of "led" runs close to the top of the - pad of "led". I see that as another potential solder bridge.


Two things I've seen no discussion about:
1. Testing.
2. Mounting.

How do you plan to test these boards? Will you solder on all the flying wires and then test? Or test with all components mounted but no wires? If the latter, then you need to think about how you'll temporarily contact all the necessary I/O & power pads. If the former, then how will you temporarily connect the far ends of the flying wires?

Unless you're planning to use hot-melt glue or some other adhesive, I see a problem: no mounting holes.
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Old Jul 8, 2011, 02:14 PM   #24
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I'm partial to more ground fill rather than less. Unless there is a reason not to...

Are the "solder pads" at the top part of a card edge connector that handles both electrical and mechanical connection?

Are you going to program the PIC offline?

I'm still on my phone so will reserve further comment until I am on a real computer.

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Old Jul 8, 2011, 02:45 PM   #25
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The schematic from which the board is designed works. Ive got 3 hand soldered prototypes which are just a pain to fit in the space required, and I want to reproduce this over and over so a PCB is key to save sanity.

Now if youre saying that the PCB layout has not been proven and I need to test it when one arrives...thats as simple as doing what I do with my handmade ones. Unless I missed the question? Its all flying wires, but I use Cat5/6 wiring internals because they are super tiny.

The IC is programmed in a PIC2KIT, and the HEX file has also been tested and works just fine. The reason I went socket is just in case I want to update the "software" on the PIC.

There really is no need to mount or attach this board to anything, it fits snug enough in the space (but not too snug, I tested a cut out print of the PCB) I am not worried about jiggling or shorting. Plus, theres no room for mounting holes. The pads along the top are input, everything else is an output. Except the power in the lower right.
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