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Old Jan 10, 2012, 07:30 AM   #26
ChristianJapan
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Originally Posted by iJohnHenry View Post
Well, a nuclear sub did the trick last time (AC not required for target practice).
the Harrier don't need a big AC ... Like that plane ...

And didn't sunk Argentina one ship from UK with a French rocket ?
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Old Jan 10, 2012, 07:52 AM   #27
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The Maori aren't native to New Zealand, they only claim to be. There are no native Mammals in New Zealalnd, that includes humans.
That's not an entirely accurate statement...

Bats are New Zealand's only native land mammals.

Also, New Zealand has a rich and diverse fauna of marine mammals.
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Old Jan 10, 2012, 07:54 AM   #28
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And didn't sunk Argentina one ship from UK with a French rocket ?
Yes, 2 days later.

Actually, the French, the bastards, actually sank HMS Sheffield.
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Old Jan 10, 2012, 07:57 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by iJohnHenry View Post
The sinking of the General Belgrano was actually a massive faux pas.
Faux pas?
That is one way of looking at it I guess.
Some may even call it a War Crime.

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Originally Posted by ChristianJapan View Post
the Harrier don't need a big AC ... Like that plane ...

And didn't sunk Argentina one ship from UK with a French rocket ?
"That plane" has been retired.
72 survivors sold to the US Marine Corps (as spare parts apparently, but the MOD denies that.)

So the UK's ability to go fight a (very) long range war is severely hampered.
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Old Jan 10, 2012, 09:19 AM   #30
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Lately I've been reading some articles that Argentina wants "their" islands back.
It is not their island, has not been their island for 179 years (British Rule, I am not sure of anything before that) so as for it being their island it is not. Oh I'd love to see the Royal Navy kick arse again though
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How many millions around the globe were asked nicely if they wanted British rule and oppression?
Did they have flags though?
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Old Jan 10, 2012, 10:41 AM   #31
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Yes, 2 days later.

Actually, the French, the bastards, actually sank HMS Sheffield.
One of the things that are remembered here about the Falklands apart from the French Exocets was the lack of American backing fronted up by Jean Kirkpatrick. She became a real hate figure here. I think she even went to an Argentine dinner the day after the invasion started! I can remember people thinking about pulling out of NATO over it.
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Old Jan 10, 2012, 11:01 AM   #32
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There was a lot of covert support from America, not least of which was the millions of gallons of jet fuel supplied to Ascension Island for the Vulcan bombers and Victor tankers to reach the Falklands on the Black Buck raids.

Unfortunately, the RAF cupboard is now bare and we lack a strike aircraft that has the range to perform that mission now. Between that and a lack of carriers, we're a bit stuffed and I think Argentina knows it.

It takes more than a nuclear sub to support an amphibious landing, we'd never have done it without air support.
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Old Jan 10, 2012, 11:45 AM   #33
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Sure - I appreciate they supplied fuel and sidewinders (and probably other stuff) eventually. Wasn't trying to infer they didn't help at all.

As an aside - how successful were the Vulcan raids? I can vaguely remember stories of only hitting the runway with one bomb?
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Old Jan 10, 2012, 12:56 PM   #34
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Not hugely successful, but it was almost as much about propaganda as it was about denying the runway at Port Stanley to the Argentinian air force. They wanted to convince Argentina that the RAF could bomb the mainland if they so wished.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck
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Old Jan 10, 2012, 01:08 PM   #35
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Yes but we don't want them back, Rick Satorum, Rick Perry, George W, you can keep them.
About that last one there: many Americans would like to send him over. To that town in the Netheregions, you know, The Hague. They know how to deal with his kind there, right?
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Old Jan 10, 2012, 06:41 PM   #36
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My mistake then,
Bats.

Batman is what the Maori used to call the Fairy People.
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Old Jan 11, 2012, 04:30 AM   #37
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Faux pas?
That is one way of looking at it I guess.
Some may even call it a War Crime.

How so? Warship (albeit an old one) sunk by sub-legitimate target I would think. Not sure what status exclusion zones have in international law. I would think if the UK bombed Argentine airbases in Argentina it would have been legal (though perhaps not smart politically).



P.S. I don't think the Lusitania sinking was a warcrime either, at least no more than sinking any other ship capable of/actually carrying military supplies (Wilhelm Gustloff, Cap Arcona in WWII to cite others).

Last edited by decafjava; Jan 11, 2012 at 04:40 AM. Reason: atrocious spelling
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Old Jan 12, 2012, 03:04 AM   #38
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My mistake then,
Bats.

Batman is what the Maori used to call the Fairy People.
Nah, I think the Fairy people were really HOBBITS.
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Old Jan 12, 2012, 08:20 AM   #39
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Unfortunately, the RAF cupboard is now bare and we lack a strike aircraft that has the range to perform that mission now. Between that and a lack of carriers, we're a bit stuffed and I think Argentina knows it.

It takes more than a nuclear sub to support an amphibious landing, we'd never have done it without air support.
Really? so you think 200odd Eurofighter Typhoons will just sit there and watch idly?
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Old Jan 12, 2012, 08:22 AM   #40
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Really? so you think 200odd Eurofighter Typhoons will just sit there and watch idly?
If we have a repeat of last time and Port Stanley airfield is taken, where exactly is that Eurofighter going to fly from? None of the South American nations will support us, we have no carriers and Ascension Island is 7,500Km away from the Falklands.
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Old Jan 12, 2012, 08:29 AM   #41
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Really? so you think 200odd Eurofighter Typhoons will just sit there and watch idly?
With a maximum combat range of around 1,389 km they will be of little use.
Even if they could take off from the remaining carrier (HMS Illustrious) that ship is gone 2014.
The next carrier is only due to be commissioned in 2020…

So it'll be submarines and passenger liners to ferry troops. Disaster.

Edit: I just saw fat jez's post. Agreed.
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Old Jan 12, 2012, 08:31 AM   #42
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If we have a repeat of last time and Port Stanley airfield is taken, where exactly is that Eurofighter going to fly from? None of the South American nations will support us, we have no carriers and Ascension Island is 7,500Km away from the Falklands.
Didn't we come to an agreement with the French to borrower their carriers whilst our new ones are being built? I'm sure there was talk of that at some poimt, but maybe I just dreamt it...
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Old Jan 12, 2012, 08:34 AM   #43
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Didn't we come to an agreement with the French to borrower their carriers whilst our new ones are being built? I'm sure there was talk of that at some poimt, but maybe I just dreamt it...
And you think they will?
Somehow I doubt it.

South America has evolved from the collection of generalissimo-run banana republics of the early 80s. There is growing economic power there and when the chips are down it will count.
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Old Jan 12, 2012, 08:39 AM   #44
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There are 4 Eurofighters and a VC-10 tanker based on the Falklands permanently, how long do you think they would last in the face of heavy air attack, even from an outdated air force like Argentinas? Sheer weight of numbers would over come them before reinforcements would arrive.

I don't see the 500 troops we have based there lasting too long against an amphibious assault either, although I am sure they would put up a good fight, so that airfield would probably fall quite quickly to ground forces.

All in all, that leaves us in a worse position than we were in last time.

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Didn't we come to an agreement with the French to borrower their carriers whilst our new ones are being built? I'm sure there was talk of that at some poimt, but maybe I just dreamt it...
No, you're absolutely right, up to a point.

"Co-ordination of aircraft carriers to ensure there is always a British or French vessel available for joint operations."

I think the key phrase here is joint operations, I don't think the French would consider this a joint operation, they'd see it as very much down to us to sort out.
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Old Jan 12, 2012, 08:48 AM   #45
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South America has evolved from the collection of generalissimo-run banana republics of the early 80s. There is growing economic power there and when the chips are down it will count.
That cuts both ways though. Yes, Argentina is more powerful than it was - both economically and in terms of size (their population has grown 40% since the early 80s!).

But now they're no longer a dictatorship, expectations regarding their military behaviour will be a lot higher. They have more to loose if they launch a war against another nation.
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Old Jan 12, 2012, 08:51 AM   #46
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They have more to loose if they launch a war against another nation.
Which is why (IMHO) I think Argentina will not go the military route.
They'd be foolish to.
If I remember correctly a large part of the motivation for the invasion was the junta's failures at home.

I was just pointing out that if they did choose to invade the Falklands/Malvinas islands the UK would be in a worse spot than it was in 1982.

Last edited by arkitect; Jan 12, 2012 at 08:53 AM. Reason: Got my date wrong. :)
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Old Jan 12, 2012, 08:52 AM   #47
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With a maximum combat range of around 1,389 km they will be of little use.
Even if they could take off from the remaining carrier (HMS Illustrious) that ship is gone 2014.
The next carrier is only due to be commissioned in 2020
No, no, we can fly Harriers from HMS Ocean, so not totally without air cover. Oh, wait...

About all we can fly from HMS Ocean's deck is Apache's, hardly going to stand up to the Argentine air force
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Old Jan 12, 2012, 08:55 AM   #48
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No, no, we can fly Harriers from HMS Ocean, so not totally without air cover. Oh, wait...

About all we can fly from HMS Ocean's deck is Apache's, hardly going to stand up to the Argentine air force
Exactly.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...5&postcount=29
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Old Jan 12, 2012, 09:09 AM   #49
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There is of course another scenario.
Oil is found in large amounts, after a few years the Falklanders demand independence from the UK. I think the huge income divided by 3000 odd people would look very inviting choice.
.
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Old Jan 12, 2012, 09:10 AM   #50
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In any case, I'm not sure the recently axed GR7 and GR9 variants had the avionics to provide a CAP capability. Sure they had Sidewinders for self defence, but I don't think they had the air-air radar of the Sea Harrier or the AMRAAM capability.
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