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Old Jan 19, 2012, 06:44 PM   #76
iJohnHenry
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the problem is that both claims have some degree of legitimacy.
they should just split them: one island each, and everyone is happy.
there, done.
Solomon you are not.

This baby can speak for itself.

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Old Jan 19, 2012, 06:53 PM   #77
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I got a better idea: since neither side has a legit claim (Argentina because they never had a legit claim, UK since the world seems to hate them), let the USA take over. We seem to want the world to hate us, this is only going to help in this quest, plus, if there is oil there, we can stop the whining over the Spratly islands (or at least the US pushed whining).

Whomever is pushing this now is probably hoping Britain will cave face or whatever before the 2012 Olympics. Like that's ever going to work against British people.
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 02:26 AM   #78
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Whomever is pushing this now is probably hoping Britain will cave face or whatever before the 2012 Olympics. Like that's ever going to work against British people.
This is nothing to do with the Olympics.

Apart from the UK, Argentina and a couple of S. American neighbours nobody cares. This issue reappeared a couple of years ago, probably for two reasons. First to distract Argentine people from other things, and secondly due to the oil. The Olympics are in a few months, everyone knows nothing will happen by then.
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 02:33 AM   #79
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This is nothing to do with the Olympics.

Apart from the UK, Argentina and a couple of S. American neighbours nobody cares. This issue reappeared a couple of years ago, probably for two reasons. First to distract Argentine people from other things, and secondly due to the oil. The Olympics are in a few months, everyone knows nothing will happen by then.
Ah, I'm sorry, it's just what I thought was the timing about.
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 03:11 AM   #80
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Aircaft loses:Argentina only shot down five Harriers and 4 helicopters.

The rest were accidents or on board ships that were destroyed ( mostly helicopters )

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source...uVwK4M57PwIrzg

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Well, the good news is that Argentina is probably in worse shape, so this an academic discussion. However, the ability to retake the Falklands won't be there. Remember last time, at the peak of their power, the UK lost seven ships, several dozen aircraft, and over 400 troops (not to mention double the number wounded, which people always
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 03:28 AM   #81
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This whole subject certainly seems to be in the news lately. I was reading the paper yesterday and the article outlined that, despite chatter and various ideas of the islands being undefended, in addition to the four Typhoons, there's also a submarine and destroyer on station there.

As the others have said I'd be amazed if there was another invasion attempt. Defending something is easier than attacking it - I remember 20 odd Royal Marines on South Georgia doing quite a good job armed only with SLRs and a few anti tank weapons. (I think they shot up a ship and downed a helicopter). They then just surrendered.
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 06:32 AM   #82
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Another possibility is oil is found and the Falkland islanders declare independence from both the UK and Argentina. Problem solved nobody has any thing to fight over.
But then the Argentinians will simply invade the Falkland Islands, because they do not recognise the rights or status of the existing inhabitants, and therefore do not acknowledge the Falkland Islands Constitution, so in the opinion of Argentina they're incapable of declaring independence in the first place.
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 07:27 AM   #83
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I got a better idea: since neither side has a legit claim (UK since the world seems to hate them), let the USA take over.
I'm sorry, the world hates the UK? are you so up yourselves that you cannot even tell that it is the US that everyone hates? we have multi-countries that like us... the US has only those that it pays in "aid" and even then

Also rather hilarious you advocate for the US to take over the islands as everyone loves the US don't they
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 07:28 AM   #84
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we have multi-countries that like us...
Except during the Eurovision Song Contest
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 07:29 AM   #85
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Except during the Eurovision Song Contest
Yes well it was our own fault for putting Blue out there... I mean Blue
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 07:33 AM   #86
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Except during the Eurovision Song Contest
To be fair, the UK hates the UK when it's Eurovision time.
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 07:33 AM   #87
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On a different note, can I recommend this book?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sea-Harrier-...7066252&sr=8-1

It's very good read on the tactics used by the Sea Harrier force that flew from Invincible (and quite a damning read on the squadron that flew from Hermes, as well as the RAF's input).
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 08:33 AM   #88
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Solomon you are not.

This baby can speak for itself.

yep,that is a quite relevant point, and the strongest one supporting the british claims, in my opinion.

for what i read, legally the islands should be argentinian (although the history there is certainly complex).
the british basically are claiming squatter's rights.
the self-determination is a bit tricky, because there is no native population and the islands were ffinally orcibly occupied by the british by displacing argentinians who were there before the british takeover in 1833.

but that occurred in the 1830's so the "invaders" have been squatting there for quite a while.
on the other hand the argentinians have been claiming them for the entire time.
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 08:55 AM   #89
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But that occurred in the 1830's so the "invaders" have been squatting there for quite a while.

On the other hand the argentinians have been claiming them for the entire time.
Yep, but the American Indian also has prior claims, from almost Antiquity.

But the old saw is "Possession is nine points of the Law." LOL
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 11:54 AM   #90
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Well, let's hope Argentina would never be so idiotic as to try force again. Still I was surprised they got away with preventing Falkland Island-flagged vessels from using Argentinian ports. I hope the islanders fly EU flags on their ships to press the issue so that the Argentine stop acting like pouting infants.

As for the Belgrano, I think people here seriously misunderstand the potential damage the cruiser could have inflicted. It was built back in the days when ships had armor, so it had 9 quick-firing 6" guns (each capable of firing eight 100 lb shells per minute at distances of up to 15 miles) and eight 5" guns (each capable of firing fifteen 80 lb shells per minute up to 8 miles). Most modern ships have no armor, so shells from this ship would have sliced through the British ships like a knife through butter. It had a top speed of thirty knots, so at top cruising speed it could cover hundreds of miles overnight. As the commander of the sub pointed out, the problem wasn't that the Belgrano was where it was, or where it was heading at the time of the attack, but the damage it could have done to the British if it changed course and sailed closer to their fleet. Sinking this cruiser wasn't a war crime, it was a military necessity.
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 12:01 PM   #91
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Well, let's hope Argentina would never be so idiotic as to try force again. Still I was surprised they got away with preventing Falkland Island-flagged vessels from using Argentinian ports. I hope the islanders fly EU flags on their ships to press the issue so that the Argentine stop acting like pouting infants.

.
The Falkland Island's ships cannot fly the EU flag they are not part of the EU.
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 12:23 PM   #92
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Useless trivia. The Belgrano was the former USS Phoenix who appropriately survived the attack on Pearl Harbour. She's also the only known ship to have been sunk by a nuclear sub.

This book is quite a good read on the sinking:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sink-Belgran...7083831&sr=8-1
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 02:28 PM   #93
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yep,that is a quite relevant point, and the strongest one supporting the british claims, in my opinion.

for what i read, legally the islands should be argentinian (although the history there is certainly complex).
the british basically are claiming squatter's rights.
the self-determination is a bit tricky, because there is no native population and the islands were ffinally orcibly occupied by the british by displacing argentinians who were there before the british takeover in 1833.

but that occurred in the 1830's so the "invaders" have been squatting there for quite a while.
on the other hand the argentinians have been claiming them for the entire time.
Squatters rights? SQUATTERS BLEEDING RIGHTS??? Wash your mouth out with tea young man, Britain has never renounced their claim to the islands since being the first to land on it 1690. The initial dispute of sovereignty of the islands was with France (who landed seventy odd years later), not Spain, whose claims to the islands prior to that time were at best tenuous, if not plain ludicrous, or at least the America's had better hope so, lest Spain & Portugal in the face of national bankruptcy decide to invoke their original claims to the whole of the New World.

It should also be noted that it was the Spanish who expelled the British first, in 1770 (I had to look up the date, as I didn't remember it from school).

The validity of any self-determination is of course entirely arguable and would make a fascinating discussion in itself, but surely, given that there has been multiple generations born on the islands over the last couple of hundred years, then realistically, they have a legitimate and reasonable claim to being considered natives? Or at least that's what the rest of the world has been doing over the millennia, after all, we all came 'Out of Africa' anyway.
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 02:40 PM   #94
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I agree, iGav, that the UK has the strongest claim - though I believe (don't quote me) that the Dutch actuallly discovered the Falkands. But they did not, if I recall, claim them.

I am not familiar with the archaeology of the island, but I have never heard whether a prehistoric presence has been confirmed (and further study might be hampered by politics). It was certainly uninhabited when Europeans arrived.
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 05:43 PM   #95
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Squatters rights? SQUATTERS BLEEDING RIGHTS??? Wash your mouth out with tea young man, Britain has never renounced their claim to the islands since being the first to land on it 1690. The initial dispute of sovereignty of the islands was with France (who landed seventy odd years later), not Spain, whose claims to the islands prior to that time were at best tenuous, if not plain ludicrous, or at least the America's had better hope so, lest Spain & Portugal in the face of national bankruptcy decide to invoke their original claims to the whole of the New World.

It should also be noted that it was the Spanish who expelled the British first, in 1770 (I had to look up the date, as I didn't remember it from school).

The validity of any self-determination is of course entirely arguable and would make a fascinating discussion in itself, but surely, given that there has been multiple generations born on the islands over the last couple of hundred years, then realistically, they have a legitimate and reasonable claim to being considered natives? Or at least that's what the rest of the world has been doing over the millennia, after all, we all came 'Out of Africa' anyway.

now, now. squatter's right is nothing to scoffed at

A method of gaining legal title to real property by the actual, open, hostile, and continuous possession of it to the exclusion of its true owner for the period prescribed by state law.

granted, it's not typically applied to territorial claims, but the concept is the same.

as mentioned by many, there was no established 'indigenous' population in the falklands/malvinas, and for quite a length of time a land belonged to whoever was strong enough to hold it.
At some point, these same claims begun to be regulated by international law and treaties.
accounts of who discovered what and when are quite debated, and the strenght of claims to the falklands ebbed back and forth (for example, it appears at some point the french formally renounced their claim and settlement in favour of spain)
i tried to read documents from each side's point of view and my impression is that if england's military wasn't so much stronger (so that they could afford to ignore comlaints), the islands would have (legally) gone back to argentina for good in the XIX century.
again the current strongest claim for the british is the de facto control of the islands for over century and the british heritage of the majority of the current population: squatter's rights.
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 05:49 PM   #96
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my impression is that if england's military wasn't so much stronger (
Excuse me? My recollection is that this was the United Kingdom, consisting of four countries, of which England is but one.
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 05:53 PM   #97
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Excuse me? My recollection is that this was the United Kingdom, consisting of four countries, of which England is but one.
If we first landed on the Falklands in 1690, they would have been claimed for England. The act of union was 17 years later, in 1707!
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 06:01 PM   #98
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If we first landed on the Falklands in 1690, they would have been claimed for England. The act of union was 17 years later, in 1707!
A minor technically, given we'd been sharing kings since James VI / I
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 06:08 PM   #99
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A minor technically, given we'd been sharing kings since James VI / I
That sounds painful and maybe illegal.
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 06:33 PM   #100
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Excuse me? My recollection is that this was the United Kingdom, consisting of four countries, of which England is but one.
I think he has the Friday Night hammers on.

That post was a dog's breakfast of errors.
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