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Old Jan 18, 2012, 02:31 PM   #51
lilo777
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Originally Posted by kingtj View Post
I work in corporate I.T. myself, and quite frankly, I'd be ecstatic if employees here started asking for Macs and we got permission to issue them!

When purchasing, you're typically asked to go get bids from 3 different suppliers. Plenty of people will sell you a Mac. I could go to PC Mall or PC Connection for example, or Micro Center or Insight. Any number of authorized Apple resellers might be willing to give me different offers on a corporate purchase - especially if it was a large system order. We even have a local Apple reseller in town (Mac HQ) who would do such a thing, probably even throwing in free delivery and setup if I wanted it.

And trust me, no medium to large-sized business I know of cares how "serviceable" a design a computer has, any more than they care how serviceable the design is of the microwave oven or mini-fridge they bought for the break room.

They care about overall reliability statistics, which means every time one of those Windows PCs gives a user problems and it has to be re-imaged or have malware removal run on it? That's a mark against its reliability. Macs are generally pretty reliable computers from the hardware angle too. Like anything, you can find exceptions -- but there's certainly no reason I'd believe the average iMac, Mac Pro or even Mac Mini would experience higher failure rates in hardware than anything else I might buy for the purpose.

To be fair, "lack of roadmap" is something that irritates software developers. If I worked for a company that coded and supported its own custom software, I'd definitely take the argument into consideration, if the developers were complaining about it. For everyone else? I think it's a bogus complaint. Apple currently uses the same Intel CPUs everyone else does, so most delays and expected release dates for new systems revolve around Intel's roadmap, utlimately. If you're worried about more details on the smaller changes? Keep up with sites like this one, and you'll know as much as anyone about what's LIKELY to happen next. It's not like Dell or HP gives me advanced previews of new models, many months before they're ready!
The three suppliers that you mentioned will offer you the same price mandated by Apple. It's very different from pitching, say, Dell, Acer and HP against each other.

And if, say, you are an IT manager in charge of buying Macs how exactly do you do it? You wait for Apple announcement to learn the options for the latest Mac, then wait until 3a.m. (or whatever - depending on you time zone) and rush to Apple.com to order your hardware because otherwise there will be unspecified delivery delay. Then you struggle connecting your Apple (TB only) monitors to your PC boxes (just an example), then you run with your Mac Mini to genius bar to replace dead hard-drive in Mac Mini. Is that what you want? Let me give you an example. I work for a large corporation. We have all kinds of special software on our laptops. It monitors "health" of our computers (defragments disks, cleans up registry etc.). This software is monitoring status of laptop battery. When the battery degrades, I get a notification message that invites me to go to PC service department where they replace the battery in 3 minutes. Obviously, I like using docking stations with my laptops. The list goes on and on...
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 02:31 PM   #52
ericinboston
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You obviously don't understand the fact that just about all Fortune 500 companies are using Apple iOS devices.

Surely Apple don't support enterprise, and thus is destined to fail.
huh???? I can't even begin to reply...I have no idea what you are getting at...did you even READ my post(s)?
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 02:33 PM   #53
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I wish our company would replace windows with macs optionally. Previous companies that i've be able to use OSX I've always been a lot more productive than on a windows machine.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 02:33 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by ericinboston View Post
1)A very high percentage of businesses that use Desktops purchase the slimline/small form factor desktops...they are quite small but not as small as a Mini. The price is still extremely cheap.

2)A very high percentage of businesses, over the past 10 years, have moved away from desktops and gone to laptops...for lots of reasons.


Physical space is rarely a concern...even back in 2001.
I do agree. That's why Mac Mini design compromises do not make any sense. make it 1" thicker/wider and make replacement of hard drive a trivial procedure.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 02:37 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by kingtj View Post
I work in corporate I.T. myself, and quite frankly, I'd be ecstatic if employees here started asking for Macs and we got permission to issue them!

When purchasing, you're typically asked to go get bids from 3 different suppliers. Plenty of people will sell you a Mac. I could go to PC Mall or PC Connection for example, or Micro Center or Insight. Any number of authorized Apple resellers might be willing to give me different offers on a corporate purchase - especially if it was a large system order. We even have a local Apple reseller in town (Mac HQ) who would do such a thing, probably even throwing in free delivery and setup if I wanted it.

And trust me, no medium to large-sized business I know of cares how "serviceable" a design a computer has, any more than they care how serviceable the design is of the microwave oven or mini-fridge they bought for the break room.
You must be in a different type of IT than I have been for all these years. Do you just have service techs come in a do all your repairs? If you do any in-house repairs, servicability becomes a big issue. Parts die, and replacing them and getting the machine back online as quickly as possible is very important. Replacing parts in most Dell or HP machines is usually easy for any experienced tech. Replacing say, a hard drive, in an iMac or new Mini is a pain in the neck. Getting replacement parts is also a pain with Macs. With Dell, for example, our techs can log into a site, give their diagnosis, and have the part shipped to them overnight. Apple doesn't do that. My location, and most of our other locations, are not near an Apple store or even a repair center.

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Originally Posted by samcraig View Post
Amazing? No. Not at all. It's pretty boring and par for the course.



You clearly aren't in IT. As "easy" as Mac computers are - they still require support - both for the machine and for the user. Any person that states otherwise is living in fantasyland.
Yeah, it doesn't matter how good the device is if it still has to interact with third party software. Also, they still have users who can screw up almost anything.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 02:38 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by AustinIllini View Post
A new file system is necessary? Why?
HFS+ is thirteen years old, and is based on HFS which is twenty-five years old. Time Machine would be much faster, with a better file system. HFS+ (Journaled) has no error correction, which means a bad block on a HDD/SSD causes data loss. And it does not support checksums.

More reasons (by John Siracusa):
http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews...-x-10-7.ars/12
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 02:39 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by lilo777 View Post
Why would any corporation choose to use iMacs? Apple does not offer corporate friendly desktop designs.
Who said anything about iMacs?? (although for some businesses they are great) The Mac Mini is much more "corporate friendly" than any PC - smaller footprint, quieter, superior build quality, better reliability and more processing power than the bottom-of-the barrel PCs than many companies buy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilo777 View Post
More importantly, corporate hate to be dependent on a single supplier (and as far as I know nobody but Apple sells iMacs).
Since when? Most corporations (as well as my employer, the Federal Gov't) enter into long-term contracts with one supplier. Ours is with Dell. I can get any computer I want as long as it's a cheap black plastic Dell - and this is for years and years. Corporate IT LOVES the consistency of one supplier.

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Originally Posted by lilo777 View Post
Add to this OS/X being a consumer-oriented OS with no enterprise features to speak off, lack of roadmap, unserviceable designs and it's clear that any increase in iMac sales is a result of iOS halo effect that won't last.
OS X is UNIX-based. Decidedly NOT "consumer-oriented". The fact that OS X has an intuitive, functional user interface as compared to the clunky, buggy, malware-ridden Windows experience does NOT make it somehow less "professional" or "corporate", except in the sense that it does not hinder performance like Windows PCs.

The Windows jockeys that inhabit corporate and government IT departments know Windows. They know anti-virus software. They are comfortable with the status quo. The ONLY reason Apple is making headway is because iOS users are clammoring for Apple products because they can be more productive. We might see some gains, but the old-think IT departments will have to be dragged to the future kicking and screaming.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 02:40 PM   #58
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I do agree. That's why Mac Mini design compromises do not make any sense. make it 1" thicker/wider and make replacement of hard drive a trivial procedure.
Exactly...I own a Mini and love it. But as a techie, it irks the hell out of me that I need a putty knife and 40 minutes of my life to swap out a hard drive or add memory.

As you said, make it a tad larger and make it simple to pop the cover off and swap out a drive and ram. The problem is, Apple doesn't want you to do that...they want you to buy the high end Mini at Checkout and/or buy a new Mini 3 years later.

The new Mini makes it easy for RAM...but let's go a step further and make the drive a snap to swap.

I've been hoping, for over 10 years now, that Apple would re-introduce some kind of traditional desktop (like all the Wintels for the past 30 years and the Macs of the 90s)...$900 or less, simple cover to remove, easy access to fix/swap things, and move on. But again, Apple seems to care about the sexiness and get you to buy more up front and replace down the road. Fine...I get it...great business points. But that's the reason why I've purchased 1 Mac since 1993. Again, I am also not the average consumer...I am a diehard techie who doesn't like "black boxes"
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 02:43 PM   #59
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If they'd add a TPM chip, they'd probably sell more. I had a nice Mac laptop until corporate policy required TPM.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 02:43 PM   #60
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I work for a large corporation, being in the "graphics department" I have been fortunate to be able to keep on using macs, although every time I need support I'm on my own, our IT dept does not want to know the macs so is always up to me to try to integrate them to the corporate network or to ensure PC only applications can be run on the macs, it is a bit of a nightmare but over the years I have proven that the mac can do pretty much the same things the pc can and only the lack of enthusiasm by IT means that the systems are not fully integrated, however, I am now allowed to log into my work email with my iPad / iMac and iPhone at home, that I wasn't allowed to do before. Things are definitely changing but old, PC IT advocates are hard to convince.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 02:45 PM   #61
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This has been a news item for the past 10 years. I guess any deviation - no matter how small - from the norm is newsworthy. Like Macs in the enterprise.
In the story they wrote that Forrester Research estimates that Apple will sell $9 billion in Macs and $10 billion in iPads to corporations this year, up 50% from 2011. Forrester anticipates spending on PCs and tablets made by other companies will decline by 3% to $69 billion.

So if Apple is selling $19 billion of a total $88 billion enterprise market, that computes out to be 21.6% of the possible (computers and tablets) market, and this does not include iPhone sales which is about 50% of enterprise purchases. THAT"S a far cry from "no matter how small."

I'm happily shocked and surprised at the level of penetration in only 5 years!
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 02:45 PM   #62
duffmanth
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If ran my own business, it would be a full Mac environment. I waste more facking time with these ******* Windows machines every day!
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 02:48 PM   #63
lilo777
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Originally Posted by scoobydoo99 View Post
Who said anything about iMacs?? (although for some businesses they are great) The Mac Mini is much more "corporate friendly" than any PC - smaller footprint, quieter, superior build quality, better reliability and more processing power than the bottom-of-the barrel PCs than many companies buy.
Some people need decent graphics. Others might need something else. Mini may work for some but it's a very basic computer (almost point-of-sale type PC).


Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobydoo99 View Post
Since when? Most corporations (as well as my employer, the Federal Gov't) enter into long-term contracts with one supplier. Ours is with Dell. I can get any computer I want as long as it's a cheap black plastic Dell - and this is for years and years. Corporate IT LOVES the consistency of one supplier.
Yes, it's a long term contract in market (PC) where suppliers do compete and this drives prices down. You still maintain an option to switch a supplier. Not so with OS/X.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobydoo99 View Post
OS X is UNIX-based. Decidedly NOT "consumer-oriented". The fact that OS X has an intuitive, functional user interface as compared to the clunky, buggy, malware-ridden Windows experience does NOT make it somehow less "professional" or "corporate", except in the sense that it does not hinder performance like Windows PCs.
That's just funny. All latest releases of OS/X were much buggier than Windows 7. Things like Active Directory, Power Shell etc. is what makes Windows a corporate friendly OS. And there is nothing special about OS/X functionality. The stupid idea of having a single menu bar at the top of the screen is a killer feature on 27+" monitors. One must be getting a very good arm work-out moving the cursor between multiple application windows and the menu bar, right?
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 02:48 PM   #64
ericinboston
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If ran my own business, it would be a full Mac environment. I waste more facking time with these ******* Windows machines every day!
here we go again...soapbox posts...no information, no reasoning, no examples, no details whatsoever.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 02:49 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by SandynJosh View Post
In the story they wrote that Forrester Research estimates that Apple will sell $9 billion in Macs and $10 billion in iPads to corporations this year, up 50% from 2011. Forrester anticipates spending on PCs and tablets made by other companies will decline by 3% to $69 billion.

So if Apple is selling $19 billion of a total $88 billion enterprise market, that computes out to be 21.6% of the possible (computers and tablets) market, and this does not include iPhone sales which is about 50% of enterprise purchases. THAT"S a far cry from "no matter how small."

I'm happily shocked and surprised at the level of penetration in only 5 years!
Analysts will be analysts with their predictions. They are more wrong than they are ever right. The proof will be in the pudding so to speak. We'll see in 2013 how much the marketplace changed in 2012. That is, of course, unless the Mayans were right and we're not here beyond this year.

p.s. Proof positive though how we're really NOT in a post-PC era...
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 02:49 PM   #66
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I think mainly these folks are booting Windows onto the Macs. I work in a corporate area and I see Mac Airs for the improved form factor. They are still booting windows, but the executives are liking the look and low weight.

At the executive level the cost difference is meaningless as far as the hardware is concerned. Having IT that can do Macs might be a slight challenge, but not in any way what it used to be. And the IT has to get there these days because it MUST service the iPhone.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 02:50 PM   #67
aristotle
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Very cool. At PricewaterhouseCoopers we have to use lenovo thinkpads with XP...and Lotus Notes.
Same here. I was issued a Lenovo T510 but I have Windows 7 and our company uses Exchange.

BTW. You don't happen to work at the Howe St building by any chance?
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 02:52 PM   #68
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I work for a large corporation, being in the "graphics department" I have been fortunate to be able to keep on using macs, although every time I need support I'm on my own, our IT dept does not want to know the macs so is always up to me to try to integrate them to the corporate network or to ensure PC only applications can be run on the macs, it is a bit of a nightmare but over the years I have proven that the mac can do pretty much the same things the pc can and only the lack of enthusiasm by IT means that the systems are not fully integrated, however, I am now allowed to log into my work email with my iPad / iMac and iPhone at home, that I wasn't allowed to do before. Things are definitely changing but old, PC IT advocates are hard to convince.
There is FAR MORE job security for the IT people as long as they promote and hold dear to the PC. You are proof that a non-technical person can do their job if Macs were the mainstay.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 02:54 PM   #69
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I think mainly these folks are booting Windows onto the Macs. I work in a corporate area and I see Mac Airs for the improved form factor. They are still booting windows, but the executives are liking the look and low weight.
This is true at my company too. EVERY single MacBook Air user at my company is actually using VMWare Fusion. Very few are using a Mac for the OS.

They prefer the fast boot up time, battery life, form factor and weight - NOT the actual operating system that goes with it.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by SandynJosh View Post
There is FAR MORE job security for the IT people as long as they promote and hold dear to the PC. You are proof that a non-technical person can do their job if Macs were the mainstay.
Not really. You still need IT people for 3rd party integration, help with onboarding, maintenance, etc. The job security is the same.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 02:56 PM   #70
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Who said anything about iMacs?? (although for some businesses they are great) The Mac Mini is much more "corporate friendly" than any PC - smaller footprint, quieter, superior build quality, better reliability and more processing power than the bottom-of-the barrel PCs than many companies buy.

And how much do Minis cost? $599 + $50 for keyboard + $70 for mouse. That's $720 for a machine...WITHOUT a monitor. So now let's add $150 for a monitor and we're at $870. For a desktop (non-traveling machine). With 2GB of memory and a poky 5400RPM drive. And no cd/dvd drive. So let's add at least $100 in some kind of upgrade (ram, cd/dvd external, better monitor, different keyboard, etc) and you're realistically at $970. Even a 10% discount is gonna bring you down to about $875. Then you still have to add probably $100+ for some kind of Support plan.

Again, companies TAKE EVERYTHING INTO CONSIDERATION...and for 30+ years they have voted against Apple.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 03:01 PM   #71
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And how much do Minis cost? $599 + $50 for keyboard + $70 for mouse. That's $720 for a machine...WITHOUT a monitor. So now let's add $150 for a monitor and we're at $870. For a desktop (non-traveling machine). With 2GB of memory and a poky 5400RPM drive. And no cd/dvd drive. So let's add at least $100 in some kind of upgrade (ram, cd/dvd external, better monitor, different keyboard, etc) and you're realistically at $970. Even a 10% discount is gonna bring you down to about $875. Then you still have to add probably $100+ for some kind of Support plan.

Again, companies TAKE EVERYTHING INTO CONSIDERATION...and for 30+ years they have voted against Apple.
There's also the additional costs for licenses. Depending on agreements, SLAs, etc - a company could fork over a lot of money to get Office and other software for the new Macs and/or having to buy licenses of VMWare Fusion (or the like) to run the software they already own.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 03:03 PM   #72
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There is FAR MORE job security for the IT people as long as they promote and hold dear to the PC. You are proof that a non-technical person can do their job if Macs were the mainstay.
Would you not say that there's more job security the more you can do?
but hey! thanks to their lack of drive I've learned loads over the years so I have to thank them for being so narrow minded :-)
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 03:09 PM   #73
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They did. Xserve. And nobody bought them. So Apple discontinued them.
well what do you expect from a product that cost more and offers less services than your competitors?

Companies are not stupid. Xservers costed more and you got a heck of a lot less. Apple Enterprise services and support is complete and utter crap when compared to other players like for example Dell.

Lets see Dell offered 24/7 tech support and would have a repair tech there with in a few hours of a call for less than Apple which only offered it during business hours and it was next day support. This is on top of the Dell server hardware being cheaper and better than Xserver hardware and you all wondered why Xservers did not sell?

Apple did not even try to offer anything that was even remotely competitive. It hardware was inferior, and it serves were complete and other crap. It was nothing more than a token attempt.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 03:12 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by ericinboston View Post
1)A very high percentage of businesses that use Desktops purchase the slimline/small form factor desktops...they are quite small but not as small as a Mini. The price is still extremely cheap.

2)A very high percentage of businesses, over the past 10 years, have moved away from desktops and gone to laptops...for lots of reasons.


Physical space is rarely a concern...even back in 2001.
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Originally Posted by lilo777 View Post
I do agree. That's why Mac Mini design compromises do not make any sense. make it 1" thicker/wider and make replacement of hard drive a trivial procedure.
This announcement was probably overlooked here on MacRumors.

Surprisingly affordable and compact for out of the box gaming. I just wish the GPU option extended down to the base model. Oh no! That is how the upsell you!
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 03:13 PM   #75
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The three suppliers that you mentioned will offer you the same price mandated by Apple. It's very different from pitching, say, Dell, Acer and HP against each other.

And if, say, you are an IT manager in charge of buying Macs how exactly do you do it? You wait for Apple announcement to learn the options for the latest Mac, then wait until 3a.m. (or whatever - depending on you time zone) and rush to Apple.com to order your hardware because otherwise there will be unspecified delivery delay. Then you struggle connecting your Apple (TB only) monitors to your PC boxes (just an example), then you run with your Mac Mini to genius bar to replace dead hard-drive in Mac Mini. Is that what you want? Let me give you an example.
I work for a large corporation. We have all kinds of special software on our laptops. It monitors "health" of our computers (defragments disks, cleans up registry etc.). This software is monitoring status of laptop battery. When the battery degrades, I get a notification message that invites me to go to PC service department where they replace the battery in 3 minutes. Obviously, I like using docking stations with my laptops. The list goes on and on...
Man, you got some really piss poor laptops if you need to monitor their health on a continuous basis. "Defragments disks, cleans up registry etc.," what ARE those things to a Mac??

"Think Different" is more then just a slogan.
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