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Old Jan 18, 2012, 04:14 PM   #76
steve2112
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Originally Posted by lilo777 View Post


That's just funny. All latest releases of OS/X were much buggier than Windows 7. Things like Active Directory, Power Shell etc. is what makes Windows a corporate friendly OS. And there is nothing special about OS/X functionality. The stupid idea of having a single menu bar at the top of the screen is a killer feature on 27+" monitors. One must be getting a very good arm work-out moving the cursor between multiple application windows and the menu bar, right?

It's even more fun on dual monitor setups.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 04:16 PM   #77
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It's even more fun on dual monitor setups.
I do not know how multi monitor OSX users can stand dealing with the menu bar only on the primary monitor.

On windows 7 Display fusion is a life saver in the fact that it puts a copy of my task bar on my 2nddary monitor but having the task bar only on one monitor is minor compared to having all the menu function trapped on a single monitor.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 04:20 PM   #78
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Unless apple can get to my office locations in < 4 hours to do any onsite maintenance repair work, Apple will never be my vendor of choice in the Corporate environment.

This alone. Not to mention the hundreds of other legitimate reasons make Apple less than ideal in the corporate world. This isn't even an OSx v Windows issue. it's the simple fact that the extreme tight lock that Apple has on their entire ecosystem is prohibitive to full scale corporate roll out.

The odd Apple computer isn't going to be a significant issue. But when you start talking about hundreds and even thousands of machines. Extremely high and tight security restrictions from rather robust servers and services providers, Apple isn't even remotely an option.

Heck. the database backend my business entirely relies on doesn't even run on OSx. nor do the front end clients.

This doesn't even begin to address so many necessary tasks that any sysadmin deals with daily that believe it or not,a PC infrastrucutre is just easier with. (Try rolling out 100+ Apple computers with identical security policies, software installations and OS installs. DARE YA)
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 04:21 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericinboston
Quote:
Originally Posted by macomrade View Post
Yes, why would any corporation want to harness a reliable, scalable, and secure UNIX-based solution in the workplace?
Ummmm...as has been for thousands of years...even if something is deemed the
"best" (as defined in a billion ways) doesn't mean it will dominate or win.

If Wintel servers weren't reliable for the last 20+ years, they wouldn't be alive. If they weren't scalable, they wouldn't be alive. If they weren't secure...if they weren't affordable...etc.

There are plenty of Unix-based boxes in corporate America...but alas, for a lot of reasons, Apple is not one of them.


Even if Apple does a complete 180 and touts to the world "We are bringing back Mac servers! We are going to launch corporate-focused selling!" nobody will buy. Apple never should have killed off the server line. Folks that were cut off will not trust Apple. Folks that are prospects won't trust Apple.

Apple has never, EVER, been friendly with businesses. Which is fine. But I think it's a pretty stupid policy being a computer company...oooops...WAS a computer company.
The key is Apple was a computer company but isn't anymore. Computers are on part of Apple's overall strategy and the enterprise doesn't fit with their view of where they are going.
Now once they have a unified field of content cloud connectivity in place they may move it as the office of the future.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 04:21 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by *LTD* View Post
Given what using a Mac is like, that should be sufficient, at least in the interim.
Absolutely. Plus I've been a unix guy since the 80s and enjoy tinkering with hardware. However, the problems with Apple products have been very few and very far between.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 04:27 PM   #81
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I would love to use my MacBook Pro at work, but unfortunately in engineering in the automotive industry, all the programs I use on a daily basis are not OS X compatible (and Parallels/BootCamp etc would defeat the purpose. I want to use OS X). But it's not like price would make much of a difference. We use 14" Dell Latitudes, and the way they are configured it's about $1500 new. No different than a 13" MBP...
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 04:27 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by ericinboston View Post
And how much do Minis cost? $599 + $50 for keyboard + $70 for mouse. That's $720 for a machine...WITHOUT a monitor. So now let's add $150 for a monitor and we're at $870. For a desktop (non-traveling machine). With 2GB of memory and a poky 5400RPM drive. And no cd/dvd drive. So let's add at least $100 in some kind of upgrade (ram, cd/dvd external, better monitor, different keyboard, etc) and you're realistically at $970. Even a 10% discount is gonna bring you down to about $875. Then you still have to add probably $100+ for some kind of Support plan.

Again, companies TAKE EVERYTHING INTO CONSIDERATION...and for 30+ years they have voted against Apple.
Your sense of history is flawed. The Mac is less then 30 years old. Before that the Apple II was dominate in corporations as stand alone computers. Most desks back then had dumb terminals.

With the advent of the 16 bit computer Apple lost out due to the fact that IMB was the brand they were competing against. IBM was a "given" to the IT departments of early '80s. IBM was "GOD" and no one ever got fired for recommending IBM over any other brand, even for electric typewriters.

So, it was not a "vote against Apple," it was vote for IBM. IBM left the desktop and portable computer business in 2002-2003 and ever since then Apple has begun to make inroads, albeit against a very entrenched "Windows" orientated IT establishment.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 04:29 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by LordVic View Post
Unless apple can get to my office locations in < 4 hours to do any onsite maintenance repair work, Apple will never be my vendor of choice in the Corporate environment.

This alone.
I suppose some major corporations get this level of service, but I don't anywhere near that kind of service managing IT for a small to mid size firm. Everything is next business day on site here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordVic View Post
Not to mention the hundreds of other legitimate reasons make Apple less than ideal in the corporate world. This isn't even an OSx v Windows issue. it's the simple fact that the extreme tight lock that Apple has on their entire ecosystem is prohibitive to full scale corporate roll out.

The odd Apple computer isn't going to be a significant issue. But when you start talking about hundreds and even thousands of machines. Extremely high and tight security restrictions from rather robust servers and services providers, Apple isn't even remotely an option.

Heck. the database backend my business entirely relies on doesn't even run on OSx. nor do the front end clients.

This doesn't even begin to address so many necessary tasks that any sysadmin deals with daily that believe it or not,a PC infrastrucutre is just easier with. (Try rolling out 100+ Apple computers with identical security policies, software installations and OS installs. DARE YA)
[/quote]

Obviously there's not going to be perfect software compatibility and Macs don't make sense in those kind of cases. But in terms of rolling out hundreds of computers, last I checked it was very easy to create an image of OSX with the necessary settings and roll it out to large numbers of laptops. There's some 3rd party software involved, but it isn't very hard, at least on 10.6 (I haven't tried to do anything similar on 10.7).

I think as Macs become more popular in the workplace, you'll see 3rd party solutions for security and other similar issues. Look at what has happened in the iOS side of things? Remember the days everyone claimed there wouldn't be large scale iOS deployment because it didn't have the same ability to be centrally controlled like Blackberries? But as deployment increased, a number of 3rd party solutions have sprung up to management deployment on multiple devices from various vendors running different OSes. I think that's the future on the Mac end of things, also.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 04:30 PM   #84
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I know this is more about corporate environments but I'd figure I would share this anyway. I work in a department store where I often sell Apple products. Most of the people who buy macs already own an iPad, iPhone or iPod touch and comment on how similar Mac OS X is. It seems like such an obvious thing to do (to make iOS and Mac OS X somewhat similar) but it pays off so well, because in my experience one of the biggest reasons people hold back from switching is just the fear of change, of everything being totally different to Windows and it being a nightmare. The iOS device they already own eases them into it, it works beautifully.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 04:32 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by SandynJosh View Post
Man, you got some really piss poor laptops if you need to monitor their health on a continuous basis. "Defragments disks, cleans up registry etc.," what ARE those things to a Mac??

"Think Different" is more then just a slogan.
I'd like to see ANY server environment operate without many of these absolutely necessary tools.

In business, especially today's critical online ones. 99.9% uptime isn't just a target. It's an absolute necessity. Even back in the early 00's, on NT boxes, I had specific software that would send messages to my pager warning me if the server room was 2 degrees off nominal.
you'd be absolutely AMAZED just the sheer level of micromanagement that is required for the backbone of a reliable IT infrastructure.

Trust me, your mom and pop 10 person company that runs a server under someones desk isn't anywhere close to the true "IT" that is required.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 04:36 PM   #86
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From my experience as a Network Engineer/Sys Admin

From what I have experienced over the past few years working as a tech for an ISP, there's definitely been a up swing in Apple usage. Typically most companies usually had a few Macs for graphics departments, etc, and now I beginning to see them more for higher level executives. The usage though is still no where near the level of Windows.

For servers, I have rarely had any calls for Apple's server product. Most SMBs are usually running SBS with Exchange and AD, and for those that don't I usually see a Linux variant running Zimbra.

I would still say the biggest market for Apple in the enterprise has been iPhone/iPad products by far.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 04:37 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by SandynJosh View Post
Your sense of history is flawed. The Mac is less then 30 years old...
the flaw is that you didn't read...I referred to choosing/not choosing APPLE for 30+ years...not MAC.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 04:37 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordVic View Post
Unless apple can get to my office locations in < 4 hours to do any onsite maintenance repair work, Apple will never be my vendor of choice in the Corporate environment.

This alone. Not to mention the hundreds of other legitimate reasons make Apple less than ideal in the corporate world. This isn't even an OSx v Windows issue. it's the simple fact that the extreme tight lock that Apple has on their entire ecosystem is prohibitive to full scale corporate roll out.

The odd Apple computer isn't going to be a significant issue. But when you start talking about hundreds and even thousands of machines. Extremely high and tight security restrictions from rather robust servers and services providers, Apple isn't even remotely an option.

Heck. the database backend my business entirely relies on doesn't even run on OSx. nor do the front end clients.

This doesn't even begin to address so many necessary tasks that any sysadmin deals with daily that believe it or not,a PC infrastrucutre is just easier with. (Try rolling out 100+ Apple computers with identical security policies, software installations and OS installs. DARE YA)
I agree 100%. I am a former all PC user and grew up surrounded by IT guys, computer engineers, etc. not to mention built my first PC. I can say that if you have an IBM or something of that nature (I'm dusting off some old memories, so go easy!) you call tech support and they are there like some sort of nerdy house-call-physician! Allot of the times I find techies that don't know how to "dance" with Mac's even if they run one! :O

EDIT: I would like to see how Cupertino runs their networks!
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 04:38 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by LordVic View Post
I'd like to see ANY server environment operate without many of these absolutely necessary tools.

In business, especially today's critical online ones. 99.9% uptime isn't just a target. It's an absolute necessity. Even back in the early 00's, on NT boxes, I had specific software that would send messages to my pager warning me if the server room was 2 degrees off nominal.
you'd be absolutely AMAZED just the sheer level of micromanagement that is required for the backbone of a reliable IT infrastructure.

Trust me, your mom and pop 10 person company that runs a server under someones desk isn't anywhere close to the true "IT" that is required.
I totally agree with you, however I was talking about laptops not servers.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 04:40 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by rnizlek View Post
I suppose some major corporations get this level of service, but I don't anywhere near that kind of service managing IT for a small to mid size firm. Everything is next business day on site here.




Obviously there's not going to be perfect software compatibility and Macs don't make sense in those kind of cases. But in terms of rolling out hundreds of computers, last I checked it was very easy to create an image of OSX with the necessary settings and roll it out to large numbers of laptops. There's some 3rd party software involved, but it isn't very hard, at least on 10.6 (I haven't tried to do anything similar on 10.7).

I think as Macs become more popular in the workplace, you'll see 3rd party solutions for security and other similar issues. Look at what has happened in the iOS side of things? Remember the days everyone claimed there wouldn't be large scale iOS deployment because it didn't have the same ability to be centrally controlled like Blackberries? But as deployment increased, a number of 3rd party solutions have sprung up to management deployment on multiple devices from various vendors running different OSes. I think that's the future on the Mac end of things, also.
with the "onsite". it's a get what you pay for. The services are avaialble to all business. Dell believe it or not has a fantastic package. I was in a medium sized business (150 employees in 10 branches in Canada) and was able to purchase this for every workstation.

again. like many said, We went dell because we weren't tied into a specific hardware vendor for our software. Over my tenure there, we varied depending on who was providing the best options with hardware, software and service at the most reasonable price. We started with Compaq, moved to IBM, and eventually DELL

And i did look into apple at the time as the president was very influenced by what he saw on TV. at the time (a few years back). For the price of a single desktop workstation hardware with a mac, we could get almost identically similar part from Dell, but with the 4 hour onsite service, Windows, Office (we worked out a deal with Dell and Microsoft for our bulk purchasing) and a few other bonuses (Discounts for having dell being our primary provider). Apple? What you saw on apple.com was exactly the options offered to us.

Also to your next point. yes I'll cede that as something proliferates into the marketplace, more developers will start focusing on it. More applications are available now for Apple than ever before. Maybe one day Apple might have some options to rival the sheer feature set of Windows 2008 server and the entire corporate windows environment, But I bleieve we are a long long long way off from that, and with current offerings, They're not even close to truly addressing the needs of a true IT infrastrucutre.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SandynJosh View Post
I totally agree with you, however I was talking about laptops not servers.
There is a lot of cohesion between Windows server and Windows OS that would be greatly lost by mixing evnironments. Smaller operations can get away with this a lot easier than larger ones. It really depends on the use. If all you're using a server for is File sharing for example. The client / server machines are less important as even a simple linux share can suffice.

But for example, if you're using a Windows Server requiring and RDP client connection, while OSx CAN do it, it's not as IT friendly

Last edited by LordVic; Jan 18, 2012 at 04:47 PM.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 04:44 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by ericinboston View Post
the flaw is that you didn't read...I said choosing APPLE for 30+ years...not MAC.
The flaw is that you didn't finish reading my comments as I then extended history back to pre-Mac era, when Apple DID dominate the free-standing computer installations in Corporate USA.

Furthermore you said "voted AGAINST Apple" not "choosing Apple."
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 04:51 PM   #92
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They did. Xserve. And nobody bought them. So Apple discontinued them.

Apple did not even use their own products in their own server rooms - they use Sun (now Oracle) servers and Solaris. If that's not saying something about how enterprise-ready Macs and OS X are, then I don't know what is. A company should first eat its own dog food before it tries to sell it to others.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 04:55 PM   #93
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Man, you got some really piss poor laptops if you need to monitor their health on a continuous basis. "Defragments disks, cleans up registry etc.," what ARE those things to a Mac??

"Think Different" is more then just a slogan.
You mean like repair permissions and malware detection tool?
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 04:56 PM   #94
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I agree 100%. I am a former all PC user and grew up surrounded by IT guys, computer engineers, etc. not to mention built my first PC. I can say that if you have an IBM or something of that nature (I'm dusting off some old memories, so go easy!) you call tech support and they are there like some sort of nerdy house-call-physician! Allot of the times I find techies that don't know how to "dance" with Mac's even if they run one! :O

EDIT: I would like to see how Cupertino runs their networks!
They use Oracle hard- and software. Solaris has been their server platform for years. Even Pixar used Sun render farms. Toy story 1 was rendered on 217 Sun workstations.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 05:01 PM   #95
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I've seen things like iPad business integration (apple.com) but is it possible (these days) to pre-configure IOS devices in businesses? i.e not just maintain some business apps but all the way from removing the initial "connect to iTunes" message?

Back on topic ...

Apple's business side of things had lots of potential. Take for instance Xsan which on Xserves was the cheapest way to run the StorNext filesystem to talk to FC (fibre channel) storage. It's ironic that Lion Server does include a license for Xsan (previously $1,000) but the hardware requirements for a metadata controller on the san aren't quite met with Apple's current offerings. Compare secondary network and FC cards in a Mac Pro to ActiveSAN (activestorage.com).

I could go on and on, but these days, IOS and Apple devices in my view attempt to play nice in "enterprise/corporate environments" much the same way (albeit with better support) that Ubuntu and some Linux distros try to support features expected of client nodes in an "enterprise/corporate network".

In short, I'm as happy about the choices as I am when Samba plays even nicer with Active Directory but it's not going to get me jumping up and down in excitement.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 05:03 PM   #96
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As a college student, one of my biggest fears is entering the PC dominated corporate world. I want to be able to use a mac at work!! I hope this becomes the norm over the next few years.
Really? That's your biggest fear? Using a PC?
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 05:06 PM   #97
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responses ....

Steve2112: I guess so? My wife works in computer support, and neither she nor I recall *ever* working for a company that expected us to do all of our own in-house repairs? They always purchased machines with extended warranties that included on-site service (or in one case where we used primarily Dell, we got permission to take a bunch of Dell exams to become certified Dell techs. allowing us to call in and bypass the normal customer service people on the phone, so we could simply request replacement parts we knew we needed).

In that Dell situation, I saw little practical difference in turn-around time over just letting an on-site tech do the warranty repair, OR even shipping the unit in some postage paid box for off-site repair. Why? Because many times, the Dell systems that failed needed parts that Dell didn't have in stock, and we had to wait as long as 2 months for some of them to ship! Monitors failed fairly often and there were no repairs to be done on them, anyway. You simply jumped through all of Dell's hoops to convince them you knew what you were talking about and it really was defective, and they'd ship another refurbished replacement display to you, asking you to box up the old one and send it back in that box.

When all you're talking about is defective RAM, it's just as easy to replace on a Mac as it is a PC. (Same is true for hard drives or even video cards if you have a Mac Pro tower.)

If we started using Macs here though, and downtime was a big concern? I'd simply buy a few spares of whichever types of Macs we were deploying. That's always going to be your fastest way to get someone back up and running. Then you can send the defective unit back for repair/replacement at your convenience. I don't understand why people are too cheap to buy and keep spare equipment around, yet they go ballistic when something breaks and can't immediately be fixed?

But regarding your specific complaint that Dell lets you troubleshoot online and request parts while Apple doesn't? Apple actually DID that exact thing for a while. I remember having a white iMac during that era. At some point, Apple phased that "user self service" option out (as far as I can tell). I'm guessing they had too many issues with it, such as people filing false reports to obtain parts for out of warranty systems that could use the same pieces, or something along those lines?


Quote:
Originally Posted by steve2112 View Post
You must be in a different type of IT than I have been for all these years. Do you just have service techs come in a do all your repairs? If you do any in-house repairs, servicability becomes a big issue. Parts die, and replacing them and getting the machine back online as quickly as possible is very important. Replacing parts in most Dell or HP machines is usually easy for any experienced tech. Replacing say, a hard drive, in an iMac or new Mini is a pain in the neck. Getting replacement parts is also a pain with Macs. With Dell, for example, our techs can log into a site, give their diagnosis, and have the part shipped to them overnight. Apple doesn't do that. My location, and most of our other locations, are not near an Apple store or even a repair center.

Yeah, it doesn't matter how good the device is if it still has to interact with third party software. Also, they still have users who can screw up almost anything.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 05:07 PM   #98
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As a college student, one of my biggest fears is entering the PC dominated corporate world. I want to be able to use a mac at work!! I hope this becomes the norm over the next few years.
I facedesked

And i'm now afraid of the current batch of stupidents that we're breading today that will take over our infrastructures that we're building of today (either OSx or Win based).

In the "real world". you will need to be able to handle yourself in any environment. have a fear of one of the other is only going to limit your effectiveness in business.

I would not hire you if you showed 0 ability to operate a windows machine with at least rudimentary capability such as email, spreadsheet and document editing.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 05:07 PM   #99
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The flaw is that you didn't finish reading my comments as I then extended history back to pre-Mac era, when Apple DID dominate the free-standing computer installations in Corporate USA.

Furthermore you said "voted AGAINST Apple" not "choosing Apple."
1)I read your whole post...the fact is you started off trying to correct me. You were wrong. No harm. No foul.

2)there's really no way, in text, to explain why I used the term "choosing Apple" later on in my reply. I know what I mean, you know what I mean, everyone knows what I mean. I don't have to write full paragraphs in every reply to be certain every single English language syntax is met, tenses are used, spellings are accurate, exact thoughts are conveyed without loopholes, etc. But alas, I have altered my text since you will probably drone on about it for 3 weeks.

Your knee-jerk replies are getting you no where. Move on.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 05:15 PM   #100
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re: Mac in the Enterprise

Oh, I agree on this part. My comments, so far, should definitely not be interpreted to mean I think Macs are viable in the "server room". It's pretty clear that Apple never did more than dabble a bit in that area, and decided to finally pull their toes back out of the water.

I saw that coming when they discontinued their own disk storage cabinet and started reselling and recommending the Promise VTrak boxes instead....

The fact that the only product Apple sells right now that comes pre-loaded with the Server version of OS X is a *Mini* says a lot too. They want to sell OS X Server mainly to home or SOHO users who already use Macs as their workstations and just need some basic server functionality on a dedicated machine somewhere on their network. They're decent "departmental servers" for certain situations too. That's about it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Winni View Post
Apple did not even use their own products in their own server rooms - they use Sun (now Oracle) servers and Solaris. If that's not saying something about how enterprise-ready Macs and OS X are, then I don't know what is. A company should first eat its own dog food before it tries to sell it to others.
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