Low 1080p bit rates - 720p files bigger than 1080p files on iTunes

AwesomeD · Mar 8, 2012

I'm glad Apple finally got around to adding 1080p movies to iTunes and that they aren't charging extra for them for people who already have the 720p versions.

I love the quality of the 1080p trailers from Apple trailers and was hoping for that, but I don't think we will be getting that. The 1080p files on iTunes don't appear to have nearly the same bit rate as the trailers which is making me second guess building a digital movie library using iTunes.

Here is why:

Downloaded The Hunger Games 1080p trailer from Apple Trailers was 2mins and 35 seconds long and was 191.90 mbs

So that would mean it's roughly 100 mbs for every 1min and 18seconds. Going to round down to easy math. So let's say 100 mbs for every minute. You would get the following video sizes

60 min movie - 6GB (1080p)
90 min movie - 9GB (1080p)
120 min movie - 12GB (1080p)

Iron Man on the iTunes store is showing the following:
SD 1.74 GB
720p 4.03 GB
1080p 3.84 GB (Iron Man is over two hours and should be over 12 GB)

WAIT WHAT the 1080p encode is smaller than the 720p encode.
See it for yourself here if you don't believe me:
http://itunes.apple.com/us/movie/iron-man/id289156796

NOTE: Go to Preferences > Store > 720p or 1080p to see the different file sizes on the page.

Let's try one more

Star Trek
SD 1.83 GB
720p 4.08 GB
1080p 4.30 GB

At least this time the 1080p file is bigger, but not by much only 220 MB.

I think I'm going to wait until Apple starts requesting proper 1080p encodes like they already do with their movie trailers.

With that said I have no issue with the size of the 720p encodes. The 720p Hunger Game Trailer was 50mb per minute which is more inline with the file sizes on the iTunes store than the 1080p encodes.

60 min movie - 3GB (720p)
90 min movie - 4.5GB (720p)
120 min movie - 6GB (720p)

There is no way the 1080p file sizes are correct IMO

MacinJosh · Mar 8, 2012

AwesomeD said:
I'm glad Apple finally got around to adding 1080p movies to iTunes and that they aren't charging extra for them for people who already have the 720p versions.

I love the quality of the 1080p trailers from Apple trailers and was hoping for that, but I don't think we will be getting that. The 1080p files on iTunes don't appear to have nearly the same bit rate as the trailers which is making me second guess building a digital movie library using iTunes.

Here is why:

Downloaded The Hunger Games 1080p trailer from Apple Trailers was 2mins and 35 seconds long and was 191.90 mbs

So that would mean it's roughly 100 mbs for every 1min and 18seconds. Going to round down to easy math. So let's say 100 mbs for every minute. You would get the following video sizes

60 min movie - 6GB (1080p)
90 min movie - 9GB (1080p)
120 min movie - 12GB (1080p)

Iron Man on the iTunes store is showing the following:
SD 1.74 GB
720p 4.03 GB
1080p 3.84 GB (Iron Man is over two hours and should be over 12 GB)

WAIT WHAT the 1080p encode is smaller than the 720p encode.
See it for yourself here if you don't believe me:
http://itunes.apple.com/us/movie/iron-man/id289156796

NOTE: Go to Preferences > Store > 720p or 1080p to see the different file sizes on the page.

Let's try one more

Star Trek
SD 1.83 GB
720p 4.08 GB
1080p 4.30 GB

At least this time the 1080p file is bigger, but not by much only 220 MB.

I think I'm going to wait until Apple starts requesting proper 1080p encodes like they already do with their movie trailers.

With that said I have no issue with the size of the 720p encodes. The 720p Hunger Game Trailer was 50mb per minute which is inline with the file sizes on the iTunes store.

60 min movie - 3GB (720p)
90 min movie - 4.5GB (720p)
120 min movie - 6GB (720p)

There is no way the 1080p file sizes are correct IMO

I think it's because the new ATV uses a more efficient encoding method utilising High Profile level 4 as opposed to Baseline.

H.264 video up to 1080p, 30 frames per second, High or Main Profile level 4.0 or lower, Baseline profile level 3.0 or lower with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps per channel, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats

AwesomeD · Mar 8, 2012

Looks like Apple Trailers are using AVC Main@L4.0 and the iTunes content is using AVC High@L4.0.

Apple Trailer was 9,785 Kbps Bitrate
iTunes content was 5,013 Kbps Bitrate

ftaok · Mar 8, 2012

MacinJosh said:
I think it's because the new ATV uses a more efficient encoding method utilising High Profile level 4 as opposed to Baseline.

H.264 video up to 1080p, 30 frames per second, High or Main Profile level 4.0 or lower, Baseline profile level 3.0 or lower with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps per channel, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats

OK, but what are the "specs" for the 720p and 1080p versions of Iron Man. It's weird that the 1080p file is smaller than the 720p one. Are there some differences between the profile used?

Scarpad · Mar 8, 2012

AwesomeD said:
I'm glad Apple finally got around to adding 1080p movies to iTunes and that they aren't charging extra for them for people who already have the 720p versions.

I love the quality of the 1080p trailers from Apple trailers and was hoping for that, but I don't think we will be getting that. The 1080p files on iTunes don't appear to have nearly the same bit rate as the trailers which is making me second guess building a digital movie library using iTunes.

Here is why:

Downloaded The Hunger Games 1080p trailer from Apple Trailers was 2mins and 35 seconds long and was 191.90 mbs

So that would mean it's roughly 100 mbs for every 1min and 18seconds. Going to round down to easy math. So let's say 100 mbs for every minute. You would get the following video sizes

60 min movie - 6GB (1080p)
90 min movie - 9GB (1080p)
120 min movie - 12GB (1080p)

Iron Man on the iTunes store is showing the following:
SD 1.74 GB
720p 4.03 GB
1080p 3.84 GB (Iron Man is over two hours and should be over 12 GB)

WAIT WHAT the 1080p encode is smaller than the 720p encode.
See it for yourself here if you don't believe me:
http://itunes.apple.com/us/movie/iron-man/id289156796

NOTE: Go to Preferences > Store > 720p or 1080p to see the different file sizes on the page.

Let's try one more

Star Trek
SD 1.83 GB
720p 4.08 GB
1080p 4.30 GB

At least this time the 1080p file is bigger, but not by much only 220 MB.

I think I'm going to wait until Apple starts requesting proper 1080p encodes like they already do with their movie trailers.

With that said I have no issue with the size of the 720p encodes. The 720p Hunger Game Trailer was 50mb per minute which is more inline with the file sizes on the iTunes store than the 1080p encodes.

60 min movie - 3GB (720p)
90 min movie - 4.5GB (720p)
120 min movie - 6GB (720p)

There is no way the 1080p file sizes are correct IMO

I saw that too, I Redownloaded a 1080p version of a breaking bad ep but I havent tried watching it yet, I'm wondering if these are just upconverts on the old stuff re-encoded.

----------

ftaok said:
OK, but what are the "specs" for the 720p and 1080p versions of Iron Man. It's weird that the 1080p file is smaller than the 720p one. Are there some differences between the profile used?

Well that's why still at 1080p, these versions are no replacement for a blu ray. OK For smaller screens thou

BarkingGhost · Mar 8, 2012

If the bitrates (or even file sizes) are significantly smaller than the movie Blu-ray counterparts then I would say Apple is taking lessons from U-Verse and its abomination of video transport.

It is interesting comparing the two Fantastic Four movies on BD. The second movie was shorter in run time, but used dual-layer with H.264 and the first one single-layer with H.264. Made a difference visually (and in player load times).

But, if you're blind then ignorance is bliss.

thenaes · Mar 8, 2012

Does anyone know if the new ATV still only has 8GB of storage space? Maybe that's why these bitrates are so low? That doesn't explain the lower file size than 720p though, at all.

NightStorm · Mar 8, 2012

thenaes said:
Does anyone know if the new ATV still only has 8GB of storage space? Maybe that's why these bitrates are so low? That doesn't explain the lower file size than 720p though, at all.

Baseline vs. Main profile can (somewhat) explain this.

I'm more interested in doing some testing to see just how large/complex of a 1080p encode the AppleTV v2 can play without issue. If the results are acceptable, it might just convince me to go back and re-encode my Bluray/HDDVD collection. Otherwise, I'll stick with my custom anamorphic 1280x720p encodes.

iBug2 · Mar 8, 2012

Scarpad said:
Well that's why still at 1080p, these versions are no replacement for a blu ray. OK For smaller screens thou

They won't be until they get along the lines of 20mbit or so. After that it's diminishing returns.

rayyu882 · Mar 8, 2012

thenaes said:
Does anyone know if the new ATV still only has 8GB of storage space? Maybe that's why these bitrates are so low? That doesn't explain the lower file size than 720p though, at all.

According to this, the new ATV still has 8GB of storage space.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/03/07/apple-tv-vs-the-new-apple-tv-2012-whats-changed/

OptyCT · Mar 8, 2012

This entire issue is the reason I'm not pulling the trigger on the new ATV and waiting to see how this all plays out. I've spent a lot of time encoding movies in high-quality 720p. I have a feeling that Apple's idea of 1080p isn't going to look a lot better (if any) than my 720p rips. I think the people on this message board equate 1080p to something that you'd see on a blu-ray. I don't like when a company advertises "1080p" and it doesn't look anywhere near blu-ray quality (i.e. Netflix, etc.).

Scarpad · Mar 8, 2012

OptyCT said:
This entire issue is the reason I'm not pulling the trigger on the new ATV and waiting to see how this all plays out. I've spent a lot of time encoding movies in high-quality 720p. I have a feeling that Apple's idea of 1080p isn't going to look a lot better (if any) than my 720p rips. I think the people on this message board equate 1080p to something that you'd see on a blu-ray. I don't like when a company advertises "1080p" and it doesn't look anywhere near blu-ray quality (i.e. Netflix, etc.).

1080p is just resolution and level of detail, bit starved 1080p is no better than and probably worse than 720p, but why does this surprise anyone, Apple feels Music at 256k is fine , then it probably feels 1080p at 8 mpps is fine too.

CptnJustc · Mar 8, 2012

My tiny HD iTunes movie collection:

Iron Man (HD).m4v
3.97 GB, 1280x532, 4391 kbps

Iron Man (1080p HD).m4v
3.84 GB, 1920x800, 4250 kbps

Religulous (HD).m4v
3.40 GB, 1280x720, 4688 kbps

Religulous (1080p HD).m4v
3.94 GB, 1920x1080, 5444 kbps

Iron Man is 2:06 while Religulous is 1:41. Maybe there's a rough inverse correlation between length and difference in bit rates, with them trying to stay within 4 GB?

May be old news, but I was pleasantly surprised to see that some of my SD movies had seen their bit rates upgraded significantly at some point, with some of those seeing upgraded resolutions.

dynaflash · Mar 8, 2012

bitrate != visual quality.

idunn · Mar 8, 2012

1080p, where?

When referring to iTunes, do you mean Apple TV?

In checking, and downloading the latest version of iTunes, I see no mention from there on a computer of 1080p content. As this was cited, 'Iron Man' is shown offered in either SD or HD content, two options, with, I believe, HD still referring to 720p.

Any thoughts on this?

jlasoon · Mar 8, 2012

idunn said:
When referring to iTunes, do you mean Apple TV?

In checking, and downloading the latest version of iTunes, I see no mention from there on a computer of 1080p content. As this was cited, 'Iron Man' is shown offered in either SD or HD content, two options, with, I believe, HD still referring to 720p.

Any thoughts on this?

iTunes preference -> Store -> When downloading HD videos, prefer 1080p

CptnJustc · Mar 8, 2012

idunn said:
When referring to iTunes, do you mean Apple TV?

In checking, and downloading the latest version of iTunes, I see no mention from there on a computer of 1080p content. As this was cited, 'Iron Man' is shown offered in either SD or HD content, two options, with, I believe, HD still referring to 720p.

Any thoughts on this?

Under Preferences -> Store, you can change whether you prefer 720p or 1080p when downloading videos. When you visit an HD movie's page in the iTunes store, the info on the left side, including file size, will be for whichever version you 'prefer'.

It will also say "HD: Includes 720p, 1080p (Downloading 720p)", and clicking on the "(Downloading 720p)" text will take you to your preferences. If you change them, the info on the left will auto-update.

Icaras · Mar 8, 2012

idunn said:
When referring to iTunes, do you mean Apple TV?

In checking, and downloading the latest version of iTunes, I see no mention from there on a computer of 1080p content. As this was cited, 'Iron Man' is shown offered in either SD or HD content, two options, with, I believe, HD still referring to 720p.

Any thoughts on this?

Also, not everything HD in the iTunes store is available in 1080p. Check the movie details on the left hand side.

OP: I have Iron man too but trashed the 720p version before redownloading the 1080p version so I couldn't compare file sizes. However, that said, I find your claim to be strange because I'm currently in the process of replacing all my TV Shows on my Mac now with 1080p copies and I went ahead and checked file sizes and sure enough every 1080p file I came across with were larger than my existing 720p files, which they should be. So I don't know whats going on with that...

CptnJustc · Mar 8, 2012

Icaras said:
Also, not everything HD in the iTunes store is available in 1080p. Check the movie details on the left hand side.

OP: I have Iron man too but trashed the 720p version before redownloading the 1080p version so I couldn't compare file sizes. However, that said, I find your claim to be strange because I'm currently in the process of replacing all my TV Shows on my Mac now with 1080p copies and I went ahead and checked file sizes and sure enough every 1080p file I came across with were larger than my existing 720p files, which they should be. So I don't know whats going on with that...

Iron Man appears to be an unusual case, but you can verify it for yourself:

http://itunes.apple.com/us/movie/iron-man/id289156796

Toggle between 720p and 1080p downloads and watch the info on the left change between 4.03 GB (720p) and 3.84 GB (1080p).

Icaras · Mar 8, 2012

CptnJustc said:
Iron Man appears to be an unusual case, but you can verify it for yourself:

http://itunes.apple.com/us/movie/iron-man/id289156796

Toggle between 720p and 1080p downloads and watch the info on the left change between 4.03 GB (720p) and 3.84 GB (1080p).

Strange indeed. I also found another strange case in my library: Gladiator 720p is 5.38GB and the 1080p version is 5.04GB. Wow, what the heck.

But so far, these two titles seem to be the only ones that are abnormal in my library. I've gone through and already replaced about a couple dozen of my iTunes HD movies so far and they all had larger file sizes at 1080p. And with my TV Show library, I've found nothing like this yet. Still strange though for sure.

chiefpavvy · Mar 8, 2012

dynaflash said:
bitrate != visual quality.

Exactly. Too many people get caught up in bitrates.

It would absolutely be possible to create a 1080p encode at a smaller file size which looked 'better' than a 720p version done with a crap encoder or poor settings etc.

Also remember iTunes Store starts with a version of the film at a quality we do not have access to. It's better than Blu Ray. Better source, better results, at lower bitrates. Pretty simple.

MovieCutter · Mar 8, 2012

chiefpavvy said:
Also remember iTunes Store starts with a version of the film at a quality we do not have access to. It's better than Blu Ray. Better source, better results, at lower bitrates. Pretty simple.

Also remember that a lot of these encodes were done a couple years ago. I'm pretty sure H264 encoding has evolved pretty significantly since then.

Icaras · Mar 8, 2012

chiefpavvy said:
Exactly. Too many people get caught up in bitrates.

It would absolutely be possible to create a 1080p encode at a smaller file size which looked 'better' than a 720p version done with a crap encoder or poor settings etc.

Also remember iTunes Store starts with a version of the film at a quality we do not have access to. It's better than Blu Ray. Better source, better results, at lower bitrates. Pretty simple.

MovieCutter said:
Also remember that a lot of these encodes were done a couple years ago. I'm pretty sure H264 encoding has evolved pretty significantly since then.

Ah, that would make sense. So basically take these file size comparisons with a grain of salt then.

MovieCutter · Mar 8, 2012

Icaras said:
Ah, that would make sense. So basically take these file size comparisons with a grain of salt then.

Not a grain of salt...just with an educated perspective.

Icaras · Mar 8, 2012

MovieCutter said:
Not a grain of salt...just with an educated perspective.

Well it looks like Apple Insider just wrote an article about it:

http://www.appleinsider.com/article..._compression_for_new_itunes_1080p_videos.html

Apple employing improved compression for new iTunes 1080p videos

That's pretty nice to hear.

Low 1080p bit rates - 720p files bigger than 1080p files on iTunes

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