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Old Mar 31, 2012, 10:35 AM   #1
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Piracy Slashed, Sales Fall?!?

France is leading the anti piracy charge at the moment. A new law has apparently reduced piracy by 66%. Yet somewhat surprisingly (to some at least ) media sales have not improved.

http://torrentfreak.com/french-three...-sales-120330/

Time for the industry and law makers to face the music. Piracy more often then not doesn't equate to lost sales, people pirate things that they wouldn't other wise buy.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 10:40 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by AP_piano295 View Post
France is leading the anti piracy charge at the moment. A new law has apparently reduced piracy by 66%. Yet somewhat surprisingly (to some at least ) media sales have not improved.

http://torrentfreak.com/french-three...-sales-120330/

Time for the industry and law makers to face the music. Piracy more often then not doesn't equate to lost sales, people pirate things that they wouldn't other wise buy.
Good point but makes me think: just cause it doesn't equate to lost sales, does that make it ok? In other words, does there have to be a victim for there to be a crime?
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 10:46 AM   #3
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I'm very anti-piracy, but I don't believe the solution is punishing people as much as it is developing the technologies to protect your product.

There should be ways to encrypt music and video so it can only be played on authorized devices.

Just like counterfeiting money ... make the job so difficult that the average joe wouldn't even bother trying.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 11:30 AM   #4
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Good point but makes me think: just cause it doesn't equate to lost sales, does that make it ok? In other words, does there have to be a victim for there to be a crime?
Perhaps.

Cards on the table I do pirate, and I don't see it as immoral, that might be a product of me "trying to alleviate my feelings of guilt through moral acrobatics". But I do actually have a logical explanation behind the thought process.

First let's set aside the question of money, because as the article above showed pirating generally doesn't equate to much lost revenue.

I think piracy is a good thing because it contributes to the commonality of man kind. I don't think culture (music, music, television) should be reserved for those who can afford it. Further I would argue that piracy actually contributes to revenue in these areas. Every one of last 5 bands I've seen in concert I was introduced to through piracy.

(Worth noting this is changing for me I've pretty much stopped pirating music and started using Spotify, given the option between legal and illegal at a reasonable price or sponsored by adds I'll chose legal)

I also don't think prohibitively expensive software tools should be limited to the wealthy and corporations. Most adobe software along with pretty much all major graphical design and animation software is so expensive that the average person has no hope of buying them.

I find piracy reprehensible in the same way I find Robin Hood reprehensible. It's stepping outside of the moral boundaries of the times to correct the wrong inherent in those times. Our system is controlled by a tiny percentage of massively wealthy people and corporations. They've trained us to think that the only way that works is the way things are right now (the way that makes them the most possible money and keeps the balance of wealth in their favor). When in reality if these industries were willing to accept the fact that they have a way bigger slice of the pie than they need or deserve than things might improve.

Paraphrasing a Terry Pratchett Quote:

"There is no law for those who make the law, and no law for the incorrigibly lawless, laws and rules are there for those people stupid enough to believe the law is there to protect them, and keep society working"

Law in this country is not there to protect you or I, it's written by the people on top and no surprise it maintains the system as it stands. You don't find morality by blindly following the laws of a morally bankrupt system.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 11:37 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
I'm very anti-piracy, but I don't believe the solution is punishing people as much as it is developing the technologies to protect your product.

There should be ways to encrypt music and video so it can only be played on authorized devices.

Just like counterfeiting money ... make the job so difficult that the average joe wouldn't even bother trying.
I think a combination of difficult encryption and fair pricing will eventually change the mindset so that difficult encryption, or indeed encryption of any kind, is no longer needed.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 11:41 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by AP_piano295 View Post
I think piracy is a good thing because it contributes to the commonality of man kind. I don't think culture (music, music, television) should be reserved for those who can afford it.
I cannot disagree more. All these products cost money to produce. How do you offset the cost of production and the value of the creative moment if you don't charge for them?

Access to TV and music require devices that cost money. I imagine that you don't believe everybody is entitled to the device that plays the content. Why then should the content itself be free?
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 11:42 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by AP_piano295 View Post
Perhaps.

Cards on the table I do pirate, and I don't see it as immoral, that might be a product of me "trying to alleviate my feelings of guilt through moral acrobatics". But I do actually have a logical explanation behind the thought process.

First let's set aside the question of money, because as the article above showed pirating generally doesn't equate to much lost revenue.

I think piracy is a good thing because it contributes to the commonality of man kind. I don't think culture (music, music, television) should be reserved for those who can afford it. Further I would argue that piracy actually contributes to revenue in these areas. Every one of last 5 bands I've seen in concert I was introduced to through piracy.

(Worth noting this is changing for me I've pretty much stopped pirating music and started using Spotify, given the option between legal and illegal at a reasonable price or sponsored by adds I'll chose legal)

I also don't think prohibitively expensive software tools should be limited to the wealthy and corporations. Most adobe software along with pretty much all major graphical design and animation software is so expensive that the average person has no hope of buying them.

I find piracy reprehensible in the same way I find Robin Hood reprehensible. It's stepping outside of the moral boundaries of the times to correct the wrong inherent in those times. Our system is controlled by a tiny percentage of massively wealthy people and corporations. They've trained us to think that the only way that works is the way things are right now (the way that makes them the most possible money and keeps the balance of wealth in their favor). When in reality if these industries were willing to accept the fact that they have a way bigger slice of the pie than they need or deserve than things might improve.

Paraphrasing a Terry Pratchett Quote:

"There is no law for those who make the law, and no law for the incorrigibly lawless, laws and rules are there for those people stupid enough to believe the law is there to protect them, and keep society working"

Law in this country is not there to protect you or I, it's written by the people on top and no surprise it maintains the system as it stands. You don't find morality by blindly following the laws of a morally bankrupt system.
I dont know, sounds like you are trying real hard to justify something you think is wrong. Do you really think that copyright laws are part of a morally bankrupt system or that stealing Mission Impossible 4 so you dont have to pay a buck at redbox is the same as what Robin Hood did?
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 12:07 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
I'm very anti-piracy, but I don't believe the solution is punishing people as much as it is developing the technologies to protect your product.

There should be ways to encrypt music and video so it can only be played on authorized devices.

Just like counterfeiting money ... make the job so difficult that the average joe wouldn't even bother trying.
Technology doesn't really work like that, if you can play something you can pirate it, there's no way to get around this.

DRM just punishes those who choose to actually pay for things thus making piracy the more desirable option, case in point we've pirated a load of stuff that we own on DVD just because the pirated copies offer a better user experience.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 12:10 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Mac'nCheese View Post
I dont know, sounds like you are trying real hard to justify something you think is wrong. Do you really think that copyright laws are part of a morally bankrupt system or that stealing Mission Impossible 4 so you dont have to pay a buck at redbox is the same as what Robin Hood did?
I dont mind piracy, as long as its not used for profit.

The way I see this argument is as follows.

Yes, theres no doubt stealing is wrong. But theres a difference between stealing something and pirating the same thing. Take your example of a mission impossible 4 dvd.

1. If you steal a DVD from a shop, it is firstly a physical thing. It cannot be duplicated.
Whereas you can download the movie 100 times from the internet, and it wont run out.

2. When stealing from a shop, the DVD belongs to the shop owner. You are taking something that belongs to them, when they should be selling this to make a living.
Whereas, if you download the movie on the internet, someone else has bought it and uploaded it. (as long as they arent selling it to you, it should be fine)

Therefore stealing from a physical store and downloading something from the internet are fundamentally different things.

Just my perspective.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 12:12 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Fazzy View Post
I dont mind piracy, as long as its not used for profit.

The way I see this argument is as follows.

Yes, theres no doubt stealing is wrong. But theres a difference between stealing something and pirating the same thing. Take your example of a mission impossible 4 dvd.

1. If you steal a DVD from a shop, it is firstly a physical thing. It cannot be duplicated.
Whereas you can download the movie 100 times from the internet, and it wont run out.

2. When stealing from a shop, the DVD belongs to the shop owner. You are taking something that belongs to them, when they should be selling this to make a living.
Whereas, if you download the movie on the internet, someone else has bought it and uploaded it. (as long as they arent selling it to you, it should be fine)

Therefore stealing from a physical store and downloading something from the internet are fundamentally different things.

Just my perspective.
We agree and disagree. Its not the same thing. But its still wrong.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 12:14 PM   #11
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We agree and disagree. Its not the same thing. But its still wrong.
Yeah I agree its still wrong on some levels. But its a completely different thing to physically stealing if you get my point lol
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 12:20 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by AP_piano295 View Post
Perhaps.

Cards on the table I do pirate, and I don't see it as immoral, that might be a product of me "trying to alleviate my feelings of guilt through moral acrobatics". But I do actually have a logical explanation behind the thought process.

First let's set aside the question of money, because as the article above showed pirating generally doesn't equate to much lost revenue.

I think piracy is a good thing because it contributes to the commonality of man kind. I don't think culture (music, music, television) should be reserved for those who can afford it. Further I would argue that piracy actually contributes to revenue in these areas. Every one of last 5 bands I've seen in concert I was introduced to through piracy.
Based on your faulty logic then, people should be jumping the fence to get into those very same concerts as music shouldn't be reserved for those that can afford it. And people should be shoplifting boom boxes and stereos out of Walmart because music should be for everyone. While they are at it, they can grab a TV and maybe a few DVD's too since you think the same rules apply. Then they can swing by their local music instrument store and cart off a few guitars or drum sets....cause music shouldn't be reserved for only those who can afford it!
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 12:27 PM   #13
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The other side is there really is not any good music worth buying. All of the albums today are so over compressed and blown out that listening to them is not enjoyable.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 12:32 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Mac'nCheese View Post
I dont know, sounds like you are trying real hard to justify something you think is wrong. Do you really think that copyright laws are part of a morally bankrupt system or that stealing Mission Impossible 4 so you dont have to pay a buck at redbox is the same as what Robin Hood did?
Might I remind you that red box is a very new thing, maybe a year or two old max, in many areas. I can speak from experience when I say that, before red box, if I wanted to watch Mission Impossible 4, it involved a $10 movie ticket at a theater 30 minutes drive away (~$15 including gas), or buying it from WalMart for $15.

Redbox effectively chopped the price of movies by 1/15th. To watch 2 movies a weekend for a month costs $8. Maybe $10 with some late fees. Before red box, that was $120 - $150. Or there's cable, but again that's about $120 - $150 if you want to see anything that isn't 5 years old.

Likewise, Spotify and Pandora are great ways to listen to music legally. But they're also relatively new. Before them, I was limited to bad radio reception or Limewire. Guess which is easier for me to use? Or CD's at $15 a pop. An hour of "new" music is easily $30 if you pay the RIAA their asking price.

Still see why people consider piracy a good deal? It's very much a robin-hood-esque idea for anyone that listens to new music or wants to watch new movies more than just once a month.

Conversely, try to extort around $200 from every person in America, every month, so they can have new music every weekend. See how well that works out.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 12:46 PM   #15
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Might I remind you that red box is a very new thing, maybe a year or two old max, in many areas. I can speak from experience when I say that, before red box, if I wanted to watch Mission Impossible 4, it involved a $10 movie ticket at a theater 30 minutes drive away (~$15 including gas), or buying it from WalMart for $15.

Redbox effectively chopped the price of movies by 1/15th. To watch 2 movies a weekend for a month costs $8. Maybe $10 with some late fees. Before red box, that was $120 - $150. Or there's cable, but again that's about $120 - $150 if you want to see anything that isn't 5 years old.

Likewise, Spotify and Pandora are great ways to listen to music legally. But they're also relatively new. Before them, I was limited to bad radio reception or Limewire. Guess which is easier for me to use? Or CD's at $15 a pop. An hour of "new" music is easily $30 if you pay the RIAA their asking price.

Still see why people consider piracy a good deal? It's very much a robin-hood-esque idea for anyone that listens to new music or wants to watch new movies more than just once a month.

Conversely, try to extort around $200 from every person in America, every month, so they can have new music every weekend. See how well that works out.
Only in America would asking someone to pay for entertainment be called "extortion". Give me a break. You have no right to be entertained. Before redbox, you could have subscribed to HBO or gone to blockbuster or god forbid, not watched every single movie you feel like you have some god given right to see. Piracy is not robin hood-esque. Its lazy, cheap people who feel like they are sticking it to the man by watching a movie that is still in the theaters in their house. The idiot my mother in law is marrying does this. He feels cool to have had MI4 in his hands when it was still in the theaters, too stupid to not care that it looked and sounded horrible.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 12:52 PM   #16
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Based on your faulty logic then, people should be jumping the fence to get into those very same concerts as music shouldn't be reserved for those that can afford it. And people should be shoplifting boom boxes and stereos out of Walmart because music should be for everyone.

You're making the assumption that a logic extended to its maximum still equates to logic.

Jumping the fence at concerts is IMO, a bad idea because if you look at the numbers concerts are where artists actually make most their money. I pay for concerts because I have an interest in supporting the artists.

Also entering a concert without paying means you are taking spaces from customers who could/would otherwise pay.

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While they are at it, they can grab a TV and maybe a few DVD's too since you think the same rules apply. Then they can swing by their local music instrument store and cart off a few guitars or drum sets....cause music shouldn't be reserved for only those who can afford it!
Non equivalent arguments, if you steal a tangible object that object cannot be purchased by someone with the necessary resources.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 01:07 PM   #17
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Piracy is not robin hood-esque.
The lack of entertainment is certainly a first world problem.

But perhaps you might look at the issue in a different context.

While not having an affordable access to entertainment is hardly life threatening ask yourself the question why isn't it affordable? Is it un-affordable because the amount of money which goes into the process of creating (music, movies, games, etc.) is so expensive and involved must be high to maintain anything like an acceptable profit margin?

Or are those prices the result of a relatively small number of executives who want multi million dollar salaries?

If the second point is the answer than you need to consider where this leads.

Sure no-one has a right to entertainment if they can't afford it. But with an increasingly decrepit lower and middle class and an increasingly wealthy upper class the numbers of people who can afford it are shrinking.

So if the status quo is acceptable to you, then you're looking at a future where perhaps the vast majority of people really can't afford much (except the most basic necessities of life) while the wealthy live in extravagance.

Is entertainment a necessity? Of course not, but there comes a point when you should ask the question are the necessities the only things which are important?

EDIT:

As for Robin Hood, just because people aren't starving doesn't mean there isn't a serious need for a wealth re-distribution.
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I dont know, sounds like you are trying real hard to justify something you think is wrong. Do you really think that copyright laws are part of a morally bankrupt system or that stealing Mission Impossible 4 so you dont have to pay a buck at redbox is the same as what Robin Hood did?
PS, I haven't watched a movie legally or illegally in months they honestly aren't worth my time.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 01:11 PM   #18
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Only in America would asking someone to pay for entertainment be called "extortion". Give me a break. You have no right to be entertained. Before redbox, you could have subscribed to HBO or gone to blockbuster or god forbid, not watched every single movie you feel like you have some god given right to see. Piracy is not robin hood-esque. Its lazy, cheap people who feel like they are sticking it to the man by watching a movie that is still in the theaters in their house. The idiot my mother in law is marrying does this. He feels cool to have had MI4 in his hands when it was still in the theaters, too stupid to not care that it looked and sounded horrible.
Blockbuster closed, but that's still $40/month, without late fees. HBO was my "cable" scenario. It's not cheap in my area.

Would I call the right to be entertained an entitlement? No, it's a privilege, but my point is that for those who enjoy more than an occasional CD here or there, it wasn't physically possible to do so in any cost-effective way.

If you went out today to buy your first iPod, could you afford the $10,000 it would cost to put 10,000 songs in your pocket?
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 01:22 PM   #19
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Yeah I agree its still wrong on some levels. But its a completely different thing to physically stealing if you get my point lol
yes, it's illegal in a different way then stealing something from a store....that difference doesn't convert it into legal activity
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 01:29 PM   #20
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yes, it's illegal in a different way then stealing something from a store....that difference doesn't convert it into legal activity
Legal =/= right

Illegal =/= Wrong

Wrong isn't necessarily the same when a situation is wrong.

Morality isn't a terribly stable construct. Of course some people have convinced us that it is and they're gleefully happy to use our moral inflexibility to screw us...
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 01:31 PM   #21
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I'm very anti-piracy, but I don't believe the solution is punishing people as much as it is developing the technologies to protect your product.

There should be ways to encrypt music and video so it can only be played on authorized devices.

Just like counterfeiting money ... make the job so difficult that the average joe wouldn't even bother trying.
You've got to be kidding, you are not dealing with the average joe you're dealing with release teams, once it's cracked you don't ever have to crack again. Also great job alienating paying customers, I run linux exclusively should I be forced to pirate to listen to music?
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 01:46 PM   #22
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Legal =/= right

Illegal =/= Wrong

Wrong isn't necessarily the same when a situation is wrong.

Morality isn't a terribly stable construct. Of course some people have convinced us that it is and they're gleefully happy to use our moral inflexibility to screw us...
I'd agree.....and people will certainly readjust their view when illegal activity is to their own benefit.....especially when it's so easy to get away with it.

In fact I think you described the process fairly well;

Quote:
Originally Posted by AP_piano295 View Post
...that might be a product of me "trying to alleviate my feelings of guilt through moral acrobatics". But I do actually have a logical explanation behind the thought process....
People will always come up with a "logical explanation" for their illegal activity.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 02:09 PM   #23
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In my case I can say that piracy leads to increased sales.

If I wasn't able to illegally download some applications such as iPad and iPhone apps, some music in the past and other items that didn't allow trials. I have never purchased it legitimately.

If the person was never going to buy it then I don't think that it leads to any lost sales. However, I think that it can lead to sales for some people that were on the fence.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 02:10 PM   #24
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... I run linux exclusively should I be forced to pirate to listen to music?
You're not forced to pirate.

You have options available to obtain music without stealing it.

You choose to pirate it, then blame your OS for forcing you to make that choice.

How ethical is that?
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 02:20 PM   #25
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You're not forced to pirate.

You have options available to obtain music without stealing it.

You choose to pirate it, then blame your OS for forcing you to make that choice.

How ethical is that?
Options as in pay over $100 to buy an OS I don't want or use? I'm not saying I am now forced to pirate I was responding to the other guy who said "only approved music players should be able to play music"...imagine no mac approved music players, would you then consider yourself "forced" to pirate?
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