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Old Apr 20, 2012, 11:22 PM   #251
AP_piano295
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Originally Posted by MadeTheSwitch View Post
You don't have to get a higher education. It, like your music, is optional. Plenty of people have made millions with no college degree at all. Obviously SOMEONE is buying those new editions of books. Why should you be any different? What makes you privileged above them?

The way it works in every other thing in life is if you don't like it, and don't want to pay for it, then you just skip it, find an alternative, or do without. If you can't afford a new TV, you stick with the old or do without. If you can't afford a new car, you get an old one or take the bus or walk. Dry cleaners or restaurant too high? Go to another one or wash and eat at home.

But no, you want to have your cake and eat it too...both have it AND not pay for it cause you think the prices are unreasonable. And that, in any other commodity or service would be called stealing.
If it hasn't become apparent to you yet, I'm not going to be changing my viewpoint to match yours. And you aren't changing your views either.

We aren't having a meaningful discourse and I see no reason to continue our conversation.
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 11:30 PM   #252
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Question, does anyone consider it stealing to go to a bookstore and read the books without intending to buy them?
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Old Apr 21, 2012, 12:44 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Happybunny View Post
.....It's more about Paying Vs Free.
isn't that really what it's all about, all the grandiose justifications aside?
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Old Apr 21, 2012, 01:15 AM   #254
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Some of this would be relieved if professors took an active role in setting up curriculum that required various readings and not from a single text. Our whole information distribution system in schools seems dated compared to what we do with tech these days.
You'll find no argument from me there the textbook is undeniably becoming a severely dated teaching tool.

When I study now I typically use the textbook as a loose "guide" but I learn the material in the book by watching videos, reading articles etc. The actual "need" for a textbook is questionable.

I think there's a-lot of pressure within the university system to use textbooks regardless of their actual usefulness. I haven't been outright told by my professors that they are told to "sell" books. But some of my better professor will say things along the lines of "the book is required for this course" but how much you'll use it is questionable (or comments along those lines).

I would be amazed if the textbook industry didn't invest a-lot of money ensuring that students will be forced or at least forcefully encouraged to buy their books.

EDIT:

And I think it's worth noting that while I love research and universities (if I had the money I would probably just stay in college become a researcher and functionally stay in college "forever"). There is plenty of corruption in these systems.

There's a-lot of bad science that gets done saying this product is safe, this drug is more effective etc. To think that the scientific and educational community is beyond large amounts of corruption isn't true. It probably does more than almost any other community to actually fight a lot of that corruption but fighting the text book publishers doesn't seem to be a part of that.
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Old Apr 21, 2012, 04:05 AM   #255
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This of course doesn't help.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...er-UK-U-S.html

With these kinds of policies US firms are seen as legitimate targets for piracy.
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Old Apr 21, 2012, 02:38 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by AP_piano295 View Post
If it hasn't become apparent to you yet, I'm not going to be changing my viewpoint to match yours. And you aren't changing your views either.

We aren't having a meaningful discourse and I see no reason to continue our conversation.
Nice duck when you can't logically support your views or answer my questions. You said way back at the beginning that music and TV should be there for people whom couldn't afford it, then you moved on with an obsession over textbooks because the people behind them are so corrupt. However, the same could be said about any industry if you were to look hard enough, so hey..free stuff for all.

Based on your "robin hood" mentality, then not only should all music and TV be free, but so should the devices to play them on. Textbooks...well you already think think should be passed out I guess, but you have yet to answer any of my questions as to what makes you privileged over the people that pay for them. You also didn't answer my earlier question about what the end result would be if no one paid for any of these things. My questions are not rhetorical. I'm really curious how much thought you have given this and how you think an economy would work if everyone shared your views. Entire industries would go bankrupt, and lots of people would lose their jobs, including all the little people who barely scrape by putting those books together, printing up those CD and movie covers.

Speaking of movies...maybe you think the ticket prices are too high, so hey..go ahead and sneak into the theatre and treat your multi-plex like an all you can eat buffet. And no doubt buying or renting movies would be out of the question as well....just swipe them, right? How far does this pro-stealing anti-corruption mindset extend? And how did you get to the point where you think you have earned some sort of entitlement to these optional things above and beyond other people?
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Old Apr 21, 2012, 02:56 PM   #257
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Nice duck when you can't logically support your views or answer my questions.
I've supported my feelings with perfectly reasonable logic in regards to my personal moral code.

Simplified it goes:

When a society has become corrupted. So as to limit education, opportunity, and yes entertainment access not due to necessity and/or to maintain an acceptable and reasonable rate of compensation and an ability to continue a business practice. But out of a desire to achieve frankly ob-seen un-reasonable and unjustifiable rates of compensation.

Then I find no moral qualms in bucking the established morality within that system in order to acquire education, opportunity and yes entertainment. Especially when there is no damage to said organization (a sale that you were never going to make =/= a lost sale).

In your eyes piracy is theft, theft is wrong in no situation can theft ever be justified. I understand your feelings on this though I do not agree with them. But the nature of our conversation has led me to believed we are making no headway towards mutual understanding of any kind so why continue it?
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Old Apr 21, 2012, 03:23 PM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadeTheSwitch View Post
...

Speaking of movies...maybe you think the ticket prices are too high, so hey..go ahead and sneak into the theatre and treat your multi-plex like an all you can eat buffet. And no doubt buying or renting movies would be out of the question as well....just swipe them, right? How far does this pro-stealing anti-corruption mindset extend? And how did you get to the point where you think you have earned some sort of entitlement to these optional things above and beyond other people?
ahhh .. entitlement .. ye good olde catch everything argument ...

maybe you should forward the argument to Universal and Disney who managed to spend 200+ million for a movie based on a board game(!) and 375 million for a movie based on a B-sci fi plot from 100 years ago.. thinking they are entitled to a big blockbuster
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Old Apr 21, 2012, 04:07 PM   #259
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ahhh .. entitlement .. ye good olde catch everything argument ...

maybe you should forward the argument to Universal and Disney who managed to spend 200+ million for a movie based on a board game(!) and 375 million for a movie based on a B-sci fi plot from 100 years ago.. thinking they are entitled to a big blockbuster
I can't even remember a movie in the last 6 months that was worth pirating (and I'm not even being sarcastic).
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Old Apr 21, 2012, 06:30 PM   #260
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I don't think you are entitled to entertainment, but at the same time I don't agree with locking people away for copyright infringement. The companies should be forced to pursue each case of copyright infringement on civil grounds and take all of the PR that goes along with it. If they need the government to fight their battles for them then maybe we should raise corporate taxes a bit and close some loopholes so that it is paid for.

Downloading a movie and stealing a physical dvd are not the same thing (regardless of what the RIAA/MPAA wants you to believe).
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Old Apr 29, 2012, 11:06 AM   #261
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I think this a relevant debate at the moment so in the interest of keeping it alive:

Here's a short article on Hollywood's pirate history:

http://torrentfreak.com/mpaa-boss-fo...istory-120428/


And here's an explanation of the entertainment industries figures on the cost of piracy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZadCj8O1-0
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Old Apr 29, 2012, 07:20 PM   #262
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sod this pirating it costs me a fortune as when wife sees film she likes she goes out and buys it currently about 350 now and counting. To me it not robbing it costing me a fortune.
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Old May 4, 2012, 08:24 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by AP_piano295 View Post
When a society has become corrupted. So as to limit education, opportunity, and yes entertainment access not due to necessity and/or to maintain an acceptable and reasonable rate of compensation and an ability to continue a business practice. But out of a desire to achieve frankly ob-seen un-reasonable and unjustifiable rates of compensation.
You think Society is corrupted? And you answer that by some corruption of your own? LOL...two wrongs do not make a right. And no...some executives are corrupted and maybe charge too much for something. But just as with a physical item, if the price is too high you shop somewhere else. If everywhere is too high, then you do without or save up and accept it, or maybe even look at it as a business opportunity yourself and get into that industry and make stuff yourself to try and get the prices down.

Quote:
Then I find no moral qualms in bucking the established morality within that system in order to acquire education, opportunity and yes entertainment. Especially when there is no damage to said organization (a sale that you were never going to make =/= a lost sale).
If they were never going to make the sale in the first place, then clearly you aren't really interested in the thing in question and do not need it.

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Originally Posted by takao View Post
ahhh .. entitlement .. ye good olde catch everything argument ...

maybe you should forward the argument to Universal and Disney who managed to spend 200+ million for a movie based on a board game(!) and 375 million for a movie based on a B-sci fi plot from 100 years ago.. thinking they are entitled to a big blockbuster
What does this have to do with piracy? And no, it's not a "catch everything argument" it happens to be the truth. Everything AP has listed is an optional thing in life and despite that, AP thinks that poor people should be entitled to these optional things anyway.

I on the other hand think that optional entertainment isn't a right. And in fact, there is no need to swipe songs as people still have access to low cost and even free sources of music already. There's the radio, internet, listening to a band in a park...parties...lots of options. Stealing is not necessary. Even if you think "the man" is sticking it to you.

As for books...higher learning isn't a right either and if you cannot afford it, well, that's what scholarships are for. Plenty of people save their money and make it work and have for centuries. Plenty of people have been successful without higher learning even and again, have for centuries.

So to complain about and find the need to steal all these optional things in life when other people get by just fine without doing so is rather ridiculous.
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Old May 5, 2012, 02:28 AM   #264
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Blablabla
It's too bad that piracy isn't stealing, otherwise your argument would've made a little bit of sense.
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Old May 5, 2012, 01:14 PM   #265
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It's too bad that piracy isn't stealing, otherwise your argument would've made a little bit of sense.
Let's see...someone sets a price for something, but you use it anyway and don't pay for it. Yup..stealing. And still illegal no matter what you call it. Piracy is just a nice sugar-coated way of renaming thievery.
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Old May 5, 2012, 01:50 PM   #266
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Let's see...someone sets a price for something, but you use it anyway and don't pay for it. Yup..stealing. And still illegal no matter what you call it. Piracy is just a nice sugar-coated way of renaming thievery.
Nah, it is somewhere in-between. The "owner" is not deprived of their goods but they may lose potential sales. There is no way to know if the pirated goods would have been bought at the asking or any price.
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Old May 5, 2012, 02:41 PM   #267
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"Horse hockey." - Col. Potter

The Internet, Twitter/etc, word of mouth, and good artist will do well.

UP THE INDIES!!!!
I have to agree here, the only thing concerning the artists should be marketing, distribution is easy on the internet.
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Old May 5, 2012, 03:09 PM   #268
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I have to agree here, the only thing concerning the artists should be marketing, distribution is easy on the internet.
Unfortunately, it would appear that the top of the food chain have convinced Government that this is in both their best interests.

More people employed in their infrastructure (paying income taxes), higher cost per unit (paying sales taxes), all footed by the poor slob at the bottom.

I can't speak to corporate taxes, because they are probably all head-quartered in Ireland.
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Old May 5, 2012, 04:03 PM   #269
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Let's see...someone sets a price for something, but you use it anyway and don't pay for it. Yup..stealing. And still illegal no matter what you call it. Piracy is just a nice sugar-coated way of renaming thievery.
Theft: the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.
Piracy. Is. Not. Stealing. Get over it.
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Old May 5, 2012, 08:11 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by IntelliUser View Post
Theft: the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.
Piracy. Is. Not. Stealing. Get over it.
I've always wondered if people like MTS Consider video uploads onto youtube piracy.
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Old May 5, 2012, 08:21 PM   #271
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Theft: the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.
Piracy. Is. Not. Stealing. Get over it.
Theft is when u take something you are supposed to pay for it.
Piracy. Is. Stealing.
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Old May 5, 2012, 08:35 PM   #272
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Theft is when u take something you are supposed to pay for it.
Piracy. Is. Stealing.
It is a copyright issue. Even laws define it as such.
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Old May 6, 2012, 01:27 AM   #273
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Theft is when u take something you are supposed to pay for it.
No it's not. Theft is depriving someone of something without their permission.
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Old May 6, 2012, 02:06 AM   #274
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No it's not. Theft is depriving someone of something without their permission.
What are they being deprived of if I wasn't going to buy it in the first place?
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Old May 6, 2012, 02:35 AM   #275
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Theft is when u take something you are supposed to pay for it.
Piracy. Is. Stealing.
So if I take a personal possession which isn't for sale but I leave an amount of money worth 10 times the economic value of that item.

Is that theft?
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