Register FAQ / Rules Forum Spy Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Apple Hardware > Desktops > Mac Pro

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Apr 23, 2012, 07:35 PM   #51
deconstruct60
macrumors 603
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neodym View Post
You may actually get this in some way, as the naming scheme for the Xeons is a little misleading. Unlike the clear differentiation in the consumer world the Xeon CPU's are not as distinct "Sandy Bridge" as their i5/i7 cousins.
The Core i7 are not simply marked by they name either.

The Core i7 39xx is a derivative of the Xeon E5 implementation with certain components turn on/off.

The Core i7 37xx is a variant of the other desktop implementations and also used as the basis for the Xeon E3 (with certain components .. additional PCI-e lanes , ECC support ) turned on.


Quote:
- We don't know anything about their individual discounts for the respective components, so judging by simply comparing end-user prices does not help imho.
Apple's volume discounts are likely to be the same for similarly priced components at similar pricing. If there is a Core i7 that is $369 and a Xeon E5 1600 that is $369 and Apple is going to buy 120,000 of either why would there be a significant discount difference.

So in Part A versus Part B discussion as long as price and volume are about the same it is reasonable to use the publicly quoted prices as a baseline. Where that goes off the road is trying to figure Apples "real" costs for parts. On that yes, folks are guessing.


Quote:
Common understanding is that due to the lack of a 2nd QPI channel the core i7 CPU's would not allow for multi-CPU configurations.
That's a dated understanding. There is no QPI link to the high speed PCI-e and I/O controller. That is inside the CPU package now. For example the E5 1600 series are zero QPI links active.

The E5 2600 needs 2 QPI links now because both RAM and PCI-e traffic and traverse between the CPU packages. There is alot more data to move.
The E5 2400 series will only have 1 QPI link so they will be kneecapped to get to get slightly lower pricing for some

In short, this is more than just about CPU cores. The CPU packages are absorbing GPUs , PCI-e lane controllers , etc. with each iteration. The differences are much more than simply core count. It is about what and how much is integrated into each package.


Quote:
Apple could design a custom motherboard with a second (or third/fourth) CPU running separately (perhaps with a barebone OSX or even iOS), only being available for calculation operations. Something like XGrid set up in hardware on the same motherboard and (e.g. via Grand Central Dispatch) being transparently available as system resource for any multithreaded program able to make use of more cores.
This are several fundamental technical problems (all generally experimented with and studied in the late 80's and 90's )

1. QPI has substantially higher bandwidth and much lower latencies than PCI-e. much less any "cheap" system interconnect ( Thunderbolt, Ethernet, etc. ). The link between these multiple independent computers will be substantially slower. You can do it, but it will throw performance down the toilet.

2. Xgrid and clusters in general are great when you don't have to much that much data around. In the NUMA (non-uniform memory access) set up with the Xeons, a program can easily be moved by the OS from one set of cores in one Package to another set of cores in another Package without moving the data in RAM. For clusters, you have to rigidly segment the data to get maximal performance. ( there are ways around that with APIs like MPI to access remote memory but that requires custom programming and typically requires tweaks for a specific hardware config to get max performance.)

3. It is substantially cheaper implementation for Intel just to turn off QPI on some models (and offer lower price) and turn on other models than for Apple to go through all of those gyrations. You made a point about economy of scale.


4. Grand Central Dispatch only makes more threads. Those threads implicitly share memory. They don't map to processes in separate RAM storage pools.



Quote:
That way they could not only span the range from entry-level tower (using a "normal" iMac CPU and inexpensive helper processors like e.g. ARM CPU's, which they would be able to purchase at a very low price due to the sheer number of iOS devices)
And it is even more scale and cheaper for Intel to put these helper ARM cores in the chipset sold with just about all of their offerings ( e.g., RAID 5-10 support. The microcontroller cores in high end Ethernet chipsets , etc. ). In short, ARM cores can be useful on I/O channels but they are typically way less powerful and significantly cheaper than what Apple uses in iOS devices.


Starting from a "discount" entry level workload mini-tower and then trying to get performance is backwards approach if trying to get to a competitive Workstation level performance.

If Apple wanted to build a distinct much lower cost mini-tower it would be far more straightforward and cost effective to just build it. They don't. Primarily because they don't want to go to "war" with the iMac. There is no upside to that. That is exactly what all of this xMac discussions go out of their way to avoid because there is nothing but hand waving justification as to why it wouldn't exist or be significant.

If glossy iMacs and hard go change HDD iMacs are a significant problem then the most cost effective solution to those issues for customers and Apple would be to fix those problems ( make option with non glossy screen or enclosure where could access HDD without engaging suction cups). Not introduce an entire new product line. That is the substantially more costly solution.
deconstruct60 is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 23, 2012, 07:56 PM   #52
CaptainChunk
macrumors 68020
 
CaptainChunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Quote:
I would personally prefer a less expensive Mac Pro, with the Ivy Bridge chips, but the hard disk / memory / expansion capability of the Mac Pro Design. I am sure that Apple would sell a lot more if they switched to the Ivy Bridge design and passed the savings on.
Consumer desktop Ivy Bridge on the Mac Pro is something Apple likely wouldn't do. Cheaper non-Xeon Mac Pros would eat into higher-end iMac sales. It's become pretty clear that Apple wants the 27" iMac to remain their "high-end" consumer offering, with Thunderbolt somewhat offsetting its lack of internal expansion.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of us would love to see cheaper uniprocessor Mac Pros based on desktop i7 chips, but it just isn't a good fit within Apple's marketing strategy. About the closest you'll get to that is building a Hackintosh. :P
__________________
MP 8x2.8GHz, 16GB RAM, flashed 8800GT; Early '08
15" MBP 2.6GHz, 4GB RAM; Early '08 (RIP)
13" MBP 2.3GHz, 8GB RAM; Early '11
CaptainChunk is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 23, 2012, 09:48 PM   #53
iZac
macrumors 65816
 
iZac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Shanghai
Quote:
Originally Posted by JesterJJZ View Post
If new MacPros were coming out tomorrow, don't you think we'd have a couple leaks at least a day or two before?

Unfortunately no one cares about Mac Pros enough to leak info about them.

Plus leaks normally occur with high volume products and identifiably different cases.
__________________
Robert Goulden
http://www.robgoulden.com
iZac is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 23, 2012, 10:21 PM   #54
Wild-Bill
macrumors 68020
 
Wild-Bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by iZac View Post
Unfortunately no one At Apple cares about Mac Pros.

Plus leaks normally occur with high volume products and identifiably different cases.
Fixed that for ya.
__________________
Wild-Bill is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 23, 2012, 10:34 PM   #55
goMac
macrumors 603
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Interestingly enough, Ivy Bridge has simply killer transcoding performance: http://www.anandtech.com/show/5771/t...770k-review/21

Edit: Looks like the SB Xeons support the same technology!
goMac is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 23, 2012, 10:48 PM   #56
deconstruct60
macrumors 603
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Interestingly enough, Ivy Bridge has simply killer transcoding performance: http://www.anandtech.com/show/5771/t...770k-review/21

Edit: Looks like the SB Xeons support the same technology!
SB Xeon E3's. Quick Sync is part of the integrated graphics functionality.
The Core i7 39xx's do not have it as do not the Xeon E5's.

Part of it is fixed function hardware ( why it is much faster than AMD and Nvidia offerings) and smaller part the more general use GPU computational engines.

With Ivy Bridge, it can do 4K video too.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...0k,3181-7.html

But need to have one of the "evil" Intel GPUs to do it. (Joking about the "evil" part. Just highlighting that Intel puts design boundaries on the GPUs... it isn't that they are bad designers. )


P.S. it would be surprising but not shocking if Intel added a limited iGPU (2500 class) to the E5's with the Ivy Bridge shrink. Some computational horsepower with some GPGPU to the mix as oppose to "yet another pair of x86 cores". It would not be surprising at all if Haswell E5 had an iGPU. (as an augment to AVX when need to get wider, more parallel SIMD done. )

Last edited by deconstruct60; Apr 23, 2012 at 11:05 PM.
deconstruct60 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2012, 08:37 AM   #57
xgman
macrumors 68040
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Don't you hate limbo? Will we ever get an answer?
__________________
{2012 27imac-3.4i7-680mx-32gb ram-768SSD+External TB Samsung840pro ssd + TB velociraptors-UAD Apollo/Marantz/Amphion/Bowers&Wilkins Sound-Impulse 61}
{ipads}{iphones}{LG G3}
xgman is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2012, 08:44 AM   #58
Concorde Rules
macrumors 68000
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Mac Pros haven't been discontinued until it disappears off Apple's site.
Concorde Rules is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2012, 08:53 AM   #59
Mike Valmike
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Chandler, Arizona
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainChunk View Post
It's become pretty clear that Apple wants the 27" iMac to remain their "high-end" consumer offering, with Thunderbolt not adequately offsetting its lack of internal expansion.
Fixed that for ya.
Mike Valmike is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2012, 09:04 AM   #60
Neodym
macrumors 6502a
 
Neodym's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concorde Rules View Post
Mac Pros haven't been discontinued until it disappears off Apple's site.
For me it's some kind of "passive discontinuation" not updating either specs or price over nearly two years...
Neodym is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2012, 09:17 AM   #61
Cindori
macrumors 68040
 
Cindori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sweden
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concorde Rules View Post
Mac Pros haven't been discontinued until it disappears off Apple's site.
yeah, but apple's website still features the iPod classic, last updated 958 days ago
__________________
Cindori .org - unique Mac software!
New release: Control Center for Mac!
Home of Trim Enabler, Zeus Flashing Tool and Kext Drop!
Cindori is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2012, 09:26 AM   #62
tony3d
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
I'm afraid it's over guys. With both Dell, and HP models ready to go, and still not one word from this tight mouth arrogant company in nearly two years, not to mention zip in rumors, logically one can only deduce EOL from these facts. Face it, some of us will be using Windows soon. Crap!
tony3d is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2012, 09:31 AM   #63
The Samurai
macrumors 68000
 
The Samurai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Glasgow
Unless I see a "Mac Pro prototype left at bar" headline, every other Mac Pro leak is fake.

#OhWait
__________________
AyeGear l iDevice / Gadget & Travel Clothing - iPad & Macbook Air Pockets
The Samurai is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2012, 09:40 AM   #64
Umbongo
macrumors 601
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: England
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony3d View Post
I'm afraid it's over guys. With both Dell, and HP models ready to go, and still not one word from this tight mouth arrogant company in nearly two years, not to mention zip in rumors, logically one can only deduce EOL from these facts. Face it, some of us will be using Windows soon. Crap!
Apple have never said a word about the Mac Pro. They just announce them and apart from one exception they have been available that day. Apple could still equal Dell, HP, Lenovo if they announced next Tuesday. Even if they don't it doesn't mean anything.
Umbongo is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2012, 09:47 AM   #65
Flood123
macrumors 6502a
 
Flood123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Living Stateside
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony3d View Post
I'm afraid it's over guys. With both Dell, and HP models ready to go, and still not one word from this tight mouth arrogant company in nearly two years, not to mention zip in rumors, logically one can only deduce EOL from these facts. Face it, some of us will be using Windows soon. Crap!
It's not over till they say its over. They wouldn't just let it go without mentioning it. So,... we wait and see.
Flood123 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2012, 10:30 AM   #66
FredT2
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
I have a different theory as to what is going on: when I checked stores around here yesterday, the available date was April 27. When I check the same stores today, it is April 28. And two have the low-end model in stock. So what I think is going on is that the stores simply don't stock most models of the Mac Pro, and the date we see is just how long it takes to get it delivered to the store. I was so hoping that indeed an announcement was imminent, but now I don't think so.
FredT2 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2012, 10:58 AM   #67
goMac
macrumors 603
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony3d View Post
I'm afraid it's over guys. With both Dell, and HP models ready to go, and still not one word from this tight mouth arrogant company in nearly two years, not to mention zip in rumors, logically one can only deduce EOL from these facts. Face it, some of us will be using Windows soon. Crap!
Really? Dell and HP have been out for all of one day and we're already going there?

Edit: Wait a second... Dell isn't even shipping until next month...
goMac is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2012, 11:11 AM   #68
24Frames
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
I would expect that most Mac Pro orders are BTO. The stock situation at the physical stores is unlikely to yield anything interesting.

Apple are likely to launch new Mac Pros alongside something else, such as new MacBook Pros, and NOT on the same day as the quarterly earnings call.
24Frames is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2012, 11:11 AM   #69
xgman
macrumors 68040
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neodym View Post
For me it's some kind of "passive discontinuation" not updating either specs or price over nearly two years...
More like passive aggressive. I'm very discouraged.
__________________
{2012 27imac-3.4i7-680mx-32gb ram-768SSD+External TB Samsung840pro ssd + TB velociraptors-UAD Apollo/Marantz/Amphion/Bowers&Wilkins Sound-Impulse 61}
{ipads}{iphones}{LG G3}
xgman is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2012, 11:56 AM   #70
thekev
macrumors 603
 
thekev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neodym View Post
For me it's some kind of "passive discontinuation" not updating either specs or price over nearly two years...
I've looked at what they could/would have implemented. On pricing, the other oems don't discount things as much as they age when it comes to workstations. Prices still fluctuate, but not as much as consumer oriented lines.

Looking at AMD's gpu updates, they wouldn't have been an extreme bump anyway. I don't think they would have redesigned the nehalem board to support thunderbolt. The starting ram configuration is a little silly, but it's easy to add that yourself. Up until "very" recently, if you went on the other oem sites and looked at configurations, you were looking at machines with 2009-2010 hardware.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tony3d View Post
I'm afraid it's over guys. With both Dell, and HP models ready to go, and still not one word from this tight mouth arrogant company in nearly two years, not to mention zip in rumors, logically one can only deduce EOL from these facts. Face it, some of us will be using Windows soon. Crap!
First Windows isn't that bad. Some software developers do have policies for switching licenses from OSX to Windows. You should look into that if you're considering such a switch. Apple has always been silent anyway. There's very little chance that is ever going to change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Really? Dell and HP have been out for all of one day and we're already going there?

Edit: Wait a second... Dell isn't even shipping until next month...
With those guys it's more of a race who can accept orders first. I am wondering if supplies were constrained.
__________________
world's largest manufacturer of tin foil hats, none of that aluminum foil crap.
thekev is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2012, 01:42 PM   #71
24Frames
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony3d View Post
I'm afraid it's over guys. With both Dell, and HP models ready to go, and still not one word from this tight mouth arrogant company in nearly two years, not to mention zip in rumors, logically one can only deduce EOL from these facts. Face it, some of us will be using Windows soon. Crap!
If you count ready to go as sometime in May (Dell) or nor outside the US (HP).
24Frames is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2012, 01:44 PM   #72
tony3d
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by 24Frames View Post
If you count ready to go as sometime in May (Dell) or nor outside the US (HP).
Hey, at least there taking orders. Thats miles ahead of Apple right now.
tony3d is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2012, 02:02 PM   #73
xgman
macrumors 68040
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Let's leave the title of this thread as is and check back on April 24, 2013 and see if Apple is still selling a 2010 Mac Pro.
__________________
{2012 27imac-3.4i7-680mx-32gb ram-768SSD+External TB Samsung840pro ssd + TB velociraptors-UAD Apollo/Marantz/Amphion/Bowers&Wilkins Sound-Impulse 61}
{ipads}{iphones}{LG G3}
xgman is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2012, 02:05 PM   #74
iDemiurge
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: London, England
Quote:
Originally Posted by ActionableMango View Post
Don't hold your breath. People have been clamoring for an expandable non-server Mac for approximately 4000 years.
When Moses came down from mount sinai he said to the Hebrews somewhat forlornly:

"I asked God for an expandable mid-range Mac, but all He gave me were these stinking tablets..."
__________________
2013 13" Air
iDemiurge is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2012, 02:25 PM   #75
Neodym
macrumors 6502a
 
Neodym's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by thekev View Post
I've looked at what they could/would have implemented. On pricing, the other oems don't discount things as much as they age when it comes to workstations. Prices still fluctuate, but not as much as consumer oriented lines.
"Not as much" is still more than "not at all". Also - with Apple refusing to offer anything in between iMac and MP, the MP as the only really expandable machine in the lineup will always have to compete to some degree with what is considered "consumer towers" from the competitors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekev View Post
Looking at AMD's gpu updates, they wouldn't have been an extreme bump anyway.
Not talking about extreme bumps. But the 6850/70 would have been an improvement already. If only to show that they at least _try_ to care for value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekev View Post
I don't think they would have redesigned the nehalem board to support thunderbolt.
No need to redesign it - after all there are PCIe slots only waiting to become filled. Thunderbolt, USB3, Raid-5... it's not as if there wouldn't have been opportunities. And with components falling in price, they could even have done some kind of facelift (like e.g. putting in a faster CPU into standard config) w/o sacrificing their holy margin!

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekev View Post
The starting ram configuration is a little silly, but it's easy to add that yourself.
It's as easy to add hard drives and graphic cards. With that reasoning they could as well offer a bare bones MP (w/o Ram, graphic card, hard drive) for a lower price and let the customers either order that parts optionally or install those things by themselves, choosing appropriate technology like SSD, decent graphic card and a proper amount of memory in the first place instead of having to throw away a good chunk of what is factory installed and (over)paid for!

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekev View Post
Up until "very" recently, if you went on the other oem sites and looked at configurations, you were looking at machines with 2009-2010 hardware.
Marketing 101: Sitting on ones laurels, leaning back and pointing at the competition when you're far from being dominant in a market segment is a good way to pi... errr scare off even the most loyal customers.
Neodym is offline   0 Reply With Quote

Reply
MacRumors Forums > Apple Hardware > Desktops > Mac Pro

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Apple's Mac Pro Shipping Estimates Slip to April in Many Countries MacRumors MacRumors.com News Discussion 120 Feb 22, 2014 01:46 PM
Rumor Suggests Replacement for Mac Pro Due in April or May MacRumors MacRumors.com News Discussion 390 May 22, 2013 12:00 PM
Finally got a Mac Pro -newbie questions! macstatic Mac Pro 17 Jan 12, 2013 02:12 PM
Can we finally get actual USB 3.0 on Mac Pro? rk25123 Mac Pro 4 Dec 27, 2012 12:43 PM
Mac Pro to Finally See Updates Next Week MacRumors MacRumors.com News Discussion 453 Jun 12, 2012 07:56 AM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:08 AM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC