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Old Apr 27, 2012, 07:21 PM   #51
Satnam1989
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Originally Posted by andyx3x View Post
My opinion on the matter is that any Apple genius would know a lot more of what goes on behind the scenes than 99 percent of the people that post here, myself included.

Three others in the thread say they were told the same thing so I would tend to believe it. It's not a big deal though. Anyone can believe what they want.
sorry to burst your bubble but as far as I know the geniuses know jack ***** about what goes on behind the scenes...really...they are just workers and they only know about their jobs.....nothing more.....if anything 1% more than what we know about behind the scenes.....do u follow news? It will give you clues of what people inside and working in/around apple really know and don't know...
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Old Apr 28, 2012, 06:44 PM   #52
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That's called sarcasm. Why would any company "destroy" money? It can easily be refurbished/repaired and redistributed.
I don't remember asking for your opinion.
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Old Apr 28, 2012, 07:24 PM   #53
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Well that settles it .....

All the Genius's here are saying the Apple employed Genius's are wrong!
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Old Apr 28, 2012, 07:46 PM   #54
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I do know that Apple does have some pretty robust diagnostic software that is able to pinpoint issues within a phone. I think a lot of people think diagnosing a problem is like fixing a car 60 years ago where you have no idea what is wrong when it comes in. Cars nowadays are plugged into a computer and them mechanic is basically told where to look or start looking. It's the same for an iPhone. The diagnostic report spits out "bad motherboard" and the motherboard can be swapped if all else is coming back ok.

I think many also tend to underestimate the time it takes to produce an iPhone from start to finish. While I don;t have exact numbers for you, I think the vision many have of production plants like foxconn is that units are pumped out in minutes or seconds. We can look at numbers that state how many units are produced per hour, but that doesn't take into account the time it takes for a unit to go from raw material, to parts, to a usable unit. Those steps undoubtedly take FAR longer than most diagnostics likely take.
The diagnostics on a car aren't quite that robust. Usually it just tells you that some sensor is reporting a bad reading - that can still be caused by countless issues (take a misfire for example, it could be caused by: bad spark plugs, bad coils, bad timing, bad fuel, bad sensors, bad cats, broken intake, broken fuel pump, etc,etc...). Does it cut down on diagnostic time? Yes. But there's still a considerable amount of diagnosis to be done in many cases. And IMO cars are a lot easier to diagnose than electronics.

With the iPhone (or any computer really), you can't really run a simple program and just deduce a part is bad. More often than not, it's a very strange combination of operations that causes the fault to be triggered. With computers for example, many of the stress testing programs won't show a fault until a few days in. But that computer may exhibit very strange behavior under normal use. Similarly with the iPhone, a diagnostics program might not catch any issues, but that wouldn't be enough to say that the phone is okay. Hypothetically speaking, if Apple found that a significant portion of refurbished iPhones end up being returned again, it might make business sense to just scrap any used phones and give new replacements. I'm not saying that's what they do... but who knows without a definitive statement from Apple.

The other thing with the iPhone refurbs is that they always recieved new screens and batteries. That basically leaves the logic board as the possibly not-new component. Identifying and replacing faulty components might cost more than the cost of the logic board itself... so it might make business sense to just stick a new one in.
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Old Apr 29, 2012, 08:07 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by terraphantm View Post
The diagnostics on a car aren't quite that robust. Usually it just tells you that some sensor is reporting a bad reading - that can still be caused by countless issues (take a misfire for example, it could be caused by: bad spark plugs, bad coils, bad timing, bad fuel, bad sensors, bad cats, broken intake, broken fuel pump, etc,etc...). Does it cut down on diagnostic time? Yes. But there's still a considerable amount of diagnosis to be done in many cases. And IMO cars are a lot easier to diagnose than electronics.

With the iPhone (or any computer really), you can't really run a simple program and just deduce a part is bad. More often than not, it's a very strange combination of operations that causes the fault to be triggered. With computers for example, many of the stress testing programs won't show a fault until a few days in. But that computer may exhibit very strange behavior under normal use. Similarly with the iPhone, a diagnostics program might not catch any issues, but that wouldn't be enough to say that the phone is okay. Hypothetically speaking, if Apple found that a significant portion of refurbished iPhones end up being returned again, it might make business sense to just scrap any used phones and give new replacements. I'm not saying that's what they do... but who knows without a definitive statement from Apple.

The other thing with the iPhone refurbs is that they always recieved new screens and batteries. That basically leaves the logic board as the possibly not-new component. Identifying and replacing faulty components might cost more than the cost of the logic board itself... so it might make business sense to just stick a new one in.
You basically have:
LCD/digitizer
Camera (2)
Logic board
Battery
Microphone (2)
Speaker (2)
Proximity sensor
Vibrator
Home button

Those items are easy to diagnose. And most of them are put in the iphone by human hands anyway.


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Old Apr 30, 2012, 01:07 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Tinmania View Post
You basically have:
LCD/digitizer
Camera (2)
Logic board
Battery
Microphone (2)
Speaker (2)
Proximity sensor
Vibrator
Home button

Those items are easy to diagnose. And most of them are put in the iphone by human hands anyway.


Michael
LCD/Digitizer are replaced regardless. As is the battery. As are all external components (so the buttons would be replaced too). I'm pretty sure the vibrator is soldered onto the logic board the 4S

That leaves the logic board, cameras, mics, and sensors. The mics and sensors are cheap. Just a dollar or two of the total cost.

The cameras might be worth saving - but the issues aren't as easy to trigger as you think. I had a (refurbished) 3GS a while ago that had a strange issue. The camera app would occasionally crash and the phone would lock up. I would hard reboot it, and then the camera would be completely pink. After a second reboot the camera returned to normal. This issue was very random; when I finally got it stuck on the pink screen again I went to the genius bar and got a refurb. I had the new phone for 10 minutes and it did the same thing when I tested the camera. I got back in my car, went back to the store, and exchanged the phone again. The second refurb worked fine until I sold it. I suspect that kind of failure couldn't have been too uncommon since I had two phones from different times with the same issue. Saving a relatively cheap piece cost Apple two refurbs in that case.

The logic board I already addressed. I suspect fixing logic board issues proves to be more trouble than it's worth.

Again I'm not saying apple definitely issues new replacements (they definitely didn't before), but I can see the case being made.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 01:17 AM   #57
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Another fact I want to add is some MacRumors user report that their re-manufacture/re-furbish/brand new replacement phone already had the SHSH blob save at the cydia server and allowing them to downgrade the OS, that would tell me the phone was previous jailbreak and use.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 03:17 AM   #58
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It's nearly $200 in raw parts... so it wouldn't be cheaper.
That is if we, as a customer, buy the parts separately. Apple buys in bulk and only few know for what price.
We are also forgetting other costs: the problem must be diagnosed by a qualified technician, the qualified technician must be paid, the phone must be shipped (twice, at least). These are all extra costs. Than I can imagine that a cheaply produced brand new phone (of which the components might be cheaper for apple than we suspect) is a better choice for Apple.

Meanwhile, the defective phone can indeed be 'destroyed'. They probably can melt the glass and metal band and create the components again.

Last edited by ThatsMeRight; Apr 30, 2012 at 03:24 AM.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 03:27 AM   #59
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I disagree. Paying an actual qualified technician to troubleshoot and then repair something as complicated as an iPhone is ten-fold more expensive than to just grab another new one off the Foxcom assembly line where they've probably got $100 in the phone.
When Apple gets a phone from Foxconn, they have paid for the parts and for the assembly work. The parts cost about 10-20 times more than the assembly work.

Now repairing an iPhone may be a bit more expensive than building one, but if Foxconn only checks for the four most common faults and fixes them, it isn't that expensive for the work and saves an awful lot of money for parts.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 05:04 AM   #60
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The giveaway here is really quite simple. If Apple were actually destroying iPhones, they would not be melting them down....they would be grinding them up.. Ha ha ha

Anyway, retuned iPhones and iPads go back to Foxconn and are remanufactured, then returned to the US to be used as warranty replacement devices. This is NOT a case where an expensive engineer diagnoses and repairs a complex piece of electronics, Foxconn techs are paid very little and are quite capable of this diagnostic work.

The parts that can easily be saved are saved. The rest are scrapped.

I have this direct from a real Apple engineer who visits Foxconn regularly, not a salesman.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 08:09 AM   #61
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I'm pretty sure the vibrator is soldered onto the logic board the 4S
I don't think the vibrator is soldered into the logic board on the 4S. I looked at the teardowns on ifixit.com (go to the iphone 4S section, click on vibrator and see installation guide) and all they stated was that it was the adhesive that is securing it to the iphone.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 08:19 AM   #62
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I wonder if my 4S that I got replaced in late February is a refurb or a brand new one, they did tell me something similar about my old one being melted down or destroyed. So this process might have been in place for a while
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 08:22 AM   #63
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Also not to mention, usually after the new iphone releases, for the first few month, the replacement will always be brand new no matter what, this is because at the time they don't have any remanufactured devices ready for replacement, as they are focusing more on producing new ones.

I've had this experience with the iPhone 4, the original one had yellow blobs and a gap on the back glass (which I got on august, 2010, so I got it replaced, it was brand new, with a normal serial number that didn't start with 5K. September comes and I had issue with the battery so had to get it replaced again, but the serial number wasn't 5K either, started with 88. Then comes around December when my home button had issues so I decided to get it replaced and started receiving 5K units.

But IMO, if people ask Genius whether they are remanufactured or brand new, most likely they will always say Brand new, but the fact that it is not always the case. Sometimes the serial number can tell. I am not sure about the case for the iphone 4S having a 5K serial number. I know that they have been doing that with the iphone first gen through iphone 4, that all of their replacement unit started with 5K.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 08:33 AM   #64
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They are not refubs, per say, they are actually remanufactured. That's to say, they are "new" phones made from known good (used) parts... That's the way it works, it's semantics.

Yes... and when you get one replaced. The new serial number replaces your original and carries forward the original date of purchase. Service replacements that are remanufactured may have a different plant code in the serial number.

They CAN be new. For example, when a new phone is released there are no used parts for the remanufacturing process and ALL service replacements are new units until there are sufficient returns to build out remanufactured units. These new units can persist in the service inventory for some time.

IMHO...
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 12:28 PM   #65
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LCD/Digitizer are replaced regardless. As is the battery. As are all external components (so the buttons would be replaced too). I'm pretty sure the vibrator is soldered onto the logic board the 4S

That leaves the logic board, cameras, mics, and sensors. The mics and sensors are cheap. Just a dollar or two of the total cost.

The cameras might be worth saving - but the issues aren't as easy to trigger as you think. I had a (refurbished) 3GS a while ago that had a strange issue. The camera app would occasionally crash and the phone would lock up. I would hard reboot it, and then the camera would be completely pink. After a second reboot the camera returned to normal. This issue was very random; when I finally got it stuck on the pink screen again I went to the genius bar and got a refurb. I had the new phone for 10 minutes and it did the same thing when I tested the camera. I got back in my car, went back to the store, and exchanged the phone again. The second refurb worked fine until I sold it. I suspect that kind of failure couldn't have been too uncommon since I had two phones from different times with the same issue. Saving a relatively cheap piece cost Apple two refurbs in that case.

The logic board I already addressed. I suspect fixing logic board issues proves to be more trouble than it's worth.

Again I'm not saying apple definitely issues new replacements (they definitely didn't before), but I can see the case being made.
What proof do you have that every LCD/digitizer unit, etc. are in fact replaced without so much as a test or casual examination?




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Old Apr 30, 2012, 05:00 PM   #66
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What proof do you have that every LCD/digitizer unit, etc. are in fact replaced without so much as a test or casual examination?




Michael
The external glass is fused to the LCD and digitizer. Separating them it is a destructive process.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 05:19 PM   #67
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The external glass is fused to the LCD and digitizer. Removing it is a destructive process.
I am well aware of that, and is why I specifically called it "LCD/digitizer unit." As I type this I am waiting for a delivery of an LCD/digitizer unit to repair an old iphone 4. But that didn't answer my question (at all).

I repeat...

"What proof do you have that every LCD/digitizer unit, etc. are in fact replaced without so much as a test or casual examination?"



Michael

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowbech View Post
I don't think the vibrator is soldered into the logic board on the 4S. I looked at the teardowns on ifixit.com (go to the iphone 4S section, click on vibrator and see installation guide) and all they stated was that it was the adhesive that is securing it to the iphone.
The vibrator is not only not attached to the logic board on the 4S, it has never been attached to the logic board in any iphone.




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Old Apr 30, 2012, 05:24 PM   #68
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I am well aware of that, and is why I specifically called it "LCD/digitizer unit." As I type this I am waiting for a delivery of an LCD/digitizer unit to repair an old iphone 4. But that didn't answer my question (at all).

I repeat...

"What proof do you have that every LCD/digitizer unit, etc. are in fact replaced without so much as a test or casual examination?"



Michael

----------


The vibrator is not only not attached to the logic board on the 4S, it has never been attached to the logic board in any iphone.




Michael
Apple states the external casing is replaced on all refurbs. The external screen is part of the casing and is fused to the LCD/digitizer. So they're all replaced regardless. They state the same for the battery

I was mistaken on the vibrator, my bad. I knew previous ones weren't soldered, but I thought the new oscillator style one was. Big deal - its not a significant cost of the phone. If its only the cheap pieces that can be saved, then there's not much business case in taking the time of dismantling them and reassembling them.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 05:51 PM   #69
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Apple states the external casing is replaced on all refurbs. The external screen is part of the casing and is fused to the LCD/digitizer. So they're all replaced regardless. They state the same for the battery

I was mistaken on the vibrator, my bad. I knew previous ones weren't soldered, but I thought the new oscillator style one was. Big deal - its not a significant cost of the phone. If its only the cheap pieces that can be saved, then there's not much business case in taking the time of dismantling them and reassembling them.
You are including the digitizer/LCD unit as "external casing?" If so I don't agree at all. That is an assumption.

My assumption is they replace it if and only if there are scratches or other kinds of damage to the screen.




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Old Apr 30, 2012, 05:56 PM   #70
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You are including the digitizer/LCD unit as "external casing?" If so I don't agree at all. That is an assumption.

My assumption is they replace it if and only if there are scratches or other kinds of damage to the screen.




Michael
The fact of the matter is that there is a lot of assumption going on here from all parties, at least from my vantage point. Unless it's in writing from Apple EXACTLY what they are replacing (or not replacing) and exactly what they are doing to "damaged" phones, in my eyes, all bets are off. I am leaning towards Apple NOT throwing every phone that is returned into the scrap pile as it just doesn't seem economically feasible to me, but that is just an assumption too.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 06:12 PM   #71
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The fact of the matter is that there is a lot of assumption going on here from all parties, at least from my vantage point. Unless it's in writing from Apple EXACTLY what they are replacing (or not replacing) and exactly what they are doing to "damaged" phones, in my eyes, all bets are off. I am leaning towards Apple NOT throwing every phone that is returned into the scrap pile as it just doesn't seem economically feasible to me, but that is just an assumption too.
I think it is a good assumption. That is what think is happening too.

However, the person I replied to did not indicate they assumed Apple was replacing the LCD: they asserted it as fact. That is where I had a problem (well I initially assumed they knew something I did not lol).




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Old Apr 30, 2012, 08:27 PM   #72
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I think it is a good assumption. That is what think is happening too.

However, the person I replied to did not indicate they assumed Apple was replacing the LCD: they asserted it as fact. That is where I had a problem (well I initially assumed they knew something I did not lol).




Michael
Of all the replacement iPhones/ipod touches I've had (not an insignificant amount - 20 or so to date), all had what was clearly new front glass. Not a single imoerfection, very smooth oleophobic coating, and visible grid pattern from the application of the coating. I cannot imagine this part being reused if they expect it to look perfect - no iPhone would meet that criteria unless used with a screen protector from the very moment it was unboxed (even then it would probably not be able to accept a new oleophobic coating). I have no doubt they reused LCDs and digitizers on the 3G and 3GS since they were separate from the front glass. On the 4/4S the LCD and digitizer are fused to the front glass. I do not see anyway for them to reuse that if they expect the exterior to be cosmetically perfect.

iPhone's are cheap to manufacture. The 4 was roughly $200 to make in the beginning; much less by now. 4S likely isn't that much more expensive to manufacture. The result is that every iPhone earns enough profit to afford a few replacements. They're also cheap enough that payong a tech to diagnose the phone, and setting up an assembly line to use used parts may cost more. So apple may lose much by not reusing the phones - especially if past data shows that refurb phones end up being replaced again. Again, I'm not saying that's what happens, but it is not outside the realm of possibility or even probability.
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Old May 1, 2012, 12:51 AM   #73
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Of all the replacement iPhones/ipod touches I've had (not an insignificant amount - 20 or so to date), all had what was clearly new front glass. Not a single imoerfection, very smooth oleophobic coating, and visible grid pattern from the application of the coating. I cannot imagine this part being reused if they expect it to look perfect - no iPhone would meet that criteria unless used with a screen protector from the very moment it was unboxed (even then it would probably not be able to accept a new oleophobic coating). I have no doubt they reused LCDs and digitizers on the 3G and 3GS since they were separate from the front glass. On the 4/4S the LCD and digitizer are fused to the front glass. I do not see anyway for them to reuse that if they expect the exterior to be cosmetically perfect.

iPhone's are cheap to manufacture. The 4 was roughly $200 to make in the beginning; much less by now. 4S likely isn't that much more expensive to manufacture. The result is that every iPhone earns enough profit to afford a few replacements. They're also cheap enough that payong a tech to diagnose the phone, and setting up an assembly line to use used parts may cost more. So apple may lose much by not reusing the phones - especially if past data shows that refurb phones end up being replaced again. Again, I'm not saying that's what happens, but it is not outside the realm of possibility or even probability.
You have zero facts (worse, you presented some as facts). All you are doing is assuming. The fact that you can tell "new perfect glass" from "used perfect glass" was worth a chuckle, I'll give you that.





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Old May 1, 2012, 06:00 PM   #74
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You have zero facts (worse, you presented some as facts). All you are doing is assuming. The fact that you can tell "new perfect glass" from "used perfect glass" was worth a chuckle, I'll give you that.





Michael
It's really not hard to tell if the glass is used. Shine a bright light and look at it. The iPhone screen develops micro scratches really easily (more accurately, the coating develops scratches very easily. Much like a clear coat). If there are absolutely no scratches visible under a bright light, then the screen was most likely not used for more than a few minutes without some sort of protection.

And I have presented facts. Go check apples refurb policy - they specifically state that refurbished items get new external casings and new batteries. That's fact. It is also fact that the LCD/digitizer cannot be separated from the external glass; it was stated in the keynote that they're fused together so that dust cannot enter.
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Old May 1, 2012, 06:16 PM   #75
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Has anyone ever got a replacement iPhone and JB it, only to find out it has shsh blobs save from a previous owner?

In the apple store apple sells refurbished everything (almost) except the iPhone, so more than likely apple does refurbish.
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