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Old May 1, 2012, 02:35 PM   #76
leekohler
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Originally Posted by bagelche View Post
OK, for argument's sake...I recant any sarcasm. I got frustrated at your lack of direct discourse. Focus on my points PLEASE.

You accuse me of false pretext. I honestly have no idea what you mean by that. What pretext and to what end?

What is my premise that we've shown a "big, bright light on"? I really and sincerely thought I've been clear about my premise: a) calling out hypocrisy is not the same thing as bullying and b) facts are useful, let's use them. Am I missing something about my premise (that is a totally sincere question and not sarcastic at all)?

I'm not interested in any side losing, but am trying very hard to correct what I see as inaccurate statements. You keep not responding to my points, but instead a) accuse me of misrepresenting something I wasn't and b) focusing on something I already said was sarcasm and not addressing the actual facts.

That to me is more dishonest than any sarcasm I may have offered up and therefore, to me, paints your entire line of argument in a disingenuous light. Work with me on real, honest discourse and I will refrain from all sarcasm and quippery.
Good luck getting a useful answer, you've just entered the world of kavika411. It will be more of the same- your words will be twisted almost beyond recognition, much like they have already.
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Old May 1, 2012, 02:43 PM   #77
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Gosh, why can't we ever have a DISCUSSION? These threads always devolve into bickering. UGH!
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Old May 1, 2012, 02:44 PM   #78
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Gosh, why can't we ever have a DISCUSSION? These threads always devolve into bickering. UGH!
It would be nice, wouldn't it? It doesn't help when people misrepresent others and wish death on other forum members either.

Last edited by leekohler; May 1, 2012 at 02:51 PM.
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Old May 1, 2012, 03:22 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by leekohler View Post
Good luck getting a useful answer, you've just entered the world of kavika411. It will be more of the same- your words will be twisted almost beyond recognition, much like they have already.
I know, I know. I know better than this, but it's just so damn frustrating. I wish there were a world without trolls. That would be lovely, really truly.
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Old May 1, 2012, 04:21 PM   #80
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I thought this part of Savage's description was pretty ironic ...

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... he [Savage] creates a safe space for all audiences to honestly discuss “taboo” topics.
Not quite "all" audiences, apparently.
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Old May 2, 2012, 12:35 AM   #81
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Not quite "all" audiences, apparently.
That was a reference to "Savage Love", an advice column the Dan Savage writes for The Stranger, the premier magazine for the Seattle area scene. I think it may be syndicated, and you can get an iPhone app for it. I have read Savage Love in the Stranger from time to time, and it is in fact a very "safe" space. He does not use it specifically as some sort of gay-atheist platform but will dispense his advice, fwiw, to anyone, without being judgemental (most of the time). Savage really is a decent guy, he just has a hair up somewhere because of the injustice he observes.
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Old May 2, 2012, 01:12 AM   #82
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It would be interesting to hear more of the talk to lend a little more context.

But somehow, I believe he could have tempered his words so that he both got his message across and didn't incite folks to walk out.
I'm getting tired of people tip-toeing around Christian doctrine because so many people believe in it.

People wan't to believe that Christianity is all about love and respect and acceptance. And that's great, it reflects well on them as people, but it's not Christian doctrine.

Christian and/or Judeo Christian doctrine is a 2000+ old peace of tribal beliefs from a time period when rape, slavery, child molestation, child murder was still acceptable.

It's past time that we stop pretending Christian doctrine is "nice". Are many Christians nice people? Of course they are, that's probably why they ignore so much of their holy text. But it's time to stop giving the major religions a free pass on their BS because it offends "believers".
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Old May 2, 2012, 02:05 AM   #83
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No they are not, some of those are from the book of Paul.

So please explain the context that makes those passages ok?
Is Paul Jesus? What does Jesus have to say regarding others? Thats all I have to say...

Not to mention look up different translations. Words meant different things back then and different translations say different things.

The easiest thing to remember is if God didn't like gay people he wouldn't make them.

I am 100% for gay rights, gay marriage, gay equality, but IF I wasn't, I'd have a hard time trying to explain my prejudices to God if he asked me why I didn't love others like I do myself, something all Christians should be doing.
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Old May 2, 2012, 03:59 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by kavika411 View Post
And some people say the cucumber tastes better pickled.

But what does that, or your "mirror" truism, have to do with citizenzen's comment concerning Savage's use of a high school journalism group as a soundboard for his beliefs on Bible "b*llsh*t" and "pansy-ass" religious beliefs?
I've been looking for the full text of his speech at the NEPA/JEA conference, so I'm not sure if he actually talked about journalism, media "on the edge" or social media. If he did, than this rant might have fit within a larger theme. Out of its original context, however, I think your question is valid.

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Can we please stop with the faux outrage? When you hire Dan Savage to speak, you know what you're getting. Google Santorum if you don't believe me.
Savage's speech seems wrong given the forum. He was invited to speak about journalism and his fantastic It Gets Better project, but instead, he gave an aimless (regardless of whether I agree with it or not) rant.

Savage is right that people "cherry-pick" their theology (which is why literalists are so hilarious), but his message came across as an attack and that's not how to discuss important issues.
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Old May 2, 2012, 08:37 AM   #85
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I wished that Savage didn't go that route with those remarks--he may have single handedly set back the "It Gets Better" movement quite a bit.
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Old May 2, 2012, 09:17 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
Savage's speech seems wrong given the forum. He was invited to speak about journalism and his fantastic It Gets Better project, but instead, he gave an aimless (regardless of whether I agree with it or not) rant.

Savage is right that people "cherry-pick" their theology (which is why literalists are so hilarious), but his message came across as an attack and that's not how to discuss important issues.

According to this, the organizers knew of his speech beforehand.

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In an interview, Savage said he regretted using vulgar terms and apologized for his description of the walkout, but defended his description of the Bible.

Savage said the speech is one he has repeatedly given in promoting "It Gets Better," his hugely successful project to help gay, lesbian and transgender youths cope with bullying. The project has at least 40,000 videos — testimonials meant to offer encouragement — including one by President Obama, and an accompanying book that debuted on The New York Times best-seller list.

Savage, 47, said he asked the organizers — the National Scholastic Press Association and Journalism Education Association — if he should "moderate" the speech. "They said, 'No. Be yourself; do what you do.' "

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...tml?prmid=4939
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Old May 2, 2012, 11:11 AM   #87
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Is Paul Jesus?
No but this is:

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

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The easiest thing to remember is if God didn't like gay people he wouldn't make them.
How does god feel about murders and rapists (the criminally insane). I assume that god wanted them as well?

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I am 100% for gay rights, gay marriage, gay equality, but IF I wasn't, I'd have a hard time trying to explain my prejudices to God if he asked me why I didn't love others like I do myself, something all Christians should be doing.
No you would have an exceptionally easy time explaining yourself that's the problem.
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Old May 3, 2012, 12:56 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by AP_piano295 View Post
No but this is:

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)



How does god feel about murders and rapists (the criminally insane). I assume that god wanted them as well?



No you would have an exceptionally easy time explaining yourself that's the problem.
No offense but you are just simply too arrogant to talk to. First, you obviously know nothing about Christianity. Second, quoting scripture means nothing, you are missing the message of the Bible. Do you know how many times the Bible has been interpreted? You think its a flawless interpretation?

Go do some real research and learn what Biblical scholars are finding all these anti-gay passages to really mean then come back and talk.

As for this line: "No you would have an exceptionally easy time explaining yourself that's the problem." You are suggesting that I hate homosexuals because I'm a Christian, you couldn't be FARTHER from the truth.

Grow up. Seriously. You are not worth replying to and I am done here. I'm purely disgusted that you try and justify hate on homosexuals. PURELY DISGUSTING.
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Old May 3, 2012, 01:32 AM   #89
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According to this, the organizers knew of his speech beforehand.
Fair point.
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Old May 3, 2012, 03:52 AM   #90
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No offense but you are just simply too arrogant to talk to. First, you obviously know nothing about Christianity. Second, quoting scripture means nothing, you are missing the message of the Bible. Do you know how many times the Bible has been interpreted? You think its a flawless interpretation?

Go do some real research and learn what Biblical scholars are finding all these anti-gay passages to really mean then come back and talk.

As for this line: "No you would have an exceptionally easy time explaining yourself that's the problem." You are suggesting that I hate homosexuals because I'm a Christian, you couldn't be FARTHER from the truth.

Grow up. Seriously. You are not worth replying to and I am done here. I'm purely disgusted that you try and justify hate on homosexuals. PURELY DISGUSTING.
It's not my holy book and there is not justification for hating homosexuals. That's why I don't worship books which clearly justify those things. I don't follow philosophies which condone murder, slavery, rape, and misogyny.

The Christian bible contains all of these passages, and many many Christians (I'm sorry but you are not the arbiter of what Christian means) and plenty of fundamentalist biblical scholars interpret many these passages as blanket condemnations of homosexuality.

I have no respect for Christianity because Christianity can mean anything to anyone who wants to interpret it one way or the other. There is no distilled truth to be found in Christian doctrine.

Dan Savage is and was right to confront Christian doctrine because Christian doctrine is wrong on morality and will remain wrong on morality. It's a hate filled text which encourages blind obedience and subservience to a monster of a "god" who demands your love or condemns you to eternal suffering.
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