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Old Jun 8, 2012, 09:50 PM   #26
chrono1081
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I would love for whatever person who down ranked me to grow some balls and explain why.

If they think the military is well run they've obviously never served.

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I'm all for national service but not only in the military.

What we've done to our soldiers and their families the past 10 years in criminal.

Her book spends a lot of time on the increasing use of contractors which allows war to be waged with a volunteer army. In some cases, we've had as many contractors in theater as soldiers.
The civilian side is much better. I was in the war twice. Once as a soldier, then again a few years later as a civilian. Its a lot less stress on the soldiers to have the menial and routine stuff taken care of by civilians (vehicle maintenance, cooking, infrastructure setup for computer systems (what I did), etc.
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Old Jun 9, 2012, 03:41 AM   #27
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The Netherlands sent military forces to Afganistan between 2006-2010.

I did a little research about mental health after care.

Geestelijke gezondheidszorg

De Militaire Geestelijke Gezondheidszorg (MGGZ) levert voor, tijdens en na de uitzending een bijdrage aan de zorg voor militairen.

Vr uitzending verzorgt de MGGZ lessen over stresspreventie, gericht op de herkenning van en de omgang met stress. Ook krijgen militairen lessen over traumaverwerking.

Psychologen
Tijdens de uitzending zijn psychologen aanwezig. Zij hebben de volgende taken:

ondersteuning van de eerstelijns zorg;
advisering van commandanten.
Deze psychologen werken, samen met artsen, maatschappelijk werkers en geestelijke verzorgers, in een Sociaal Medisch Team.

Terugkeer
Militairen verblijven na een missie enkele dagen op Kreta. Daar volgt een debriefingsgesprek met een psycholoog en krijgen zij gezondheidsvoorlichting van een arts.

Nazorg
Bij terugkeer is er een gesprek tussen een psycholoog en de militair. In de toekomst wordt dit een groepsgesprek waarbij de militair de mogelijkheid krijgt om alsnog een individueel gesprek te voeren. Na enige tijd na terugkeer op het onderdeel, volgt een terugkeergesprek met bedrijfsmaatschappelijk werker of geestelijk verzorger. Ongeveer 6 maanden na terugkeer krijgen militairen en hun gezinnen een nazorgvragenlijst toegezonden. Hieruit kan naar voren komen of er eventuele lichamelijke of geestelijke problemen zijn.


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It basically states that personal will be give psychological test before they are deployed, and during their deployment.
During deployment there will be at least one psychologist and social workers will be on call.
Commanding officers are held accountable for physical and mental health of their subordinates.

After deployment the personal are debriefed on the island of Creta. Here they will all under go more tests with psychologist.

On return to the Netherlands, they attend group therapy, and every six months they are visited to see if there has been any adverse affects from the deployment. (These visits include the families)

It's not perfect, but after we have sent these young people into danger it's the least we can do.
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Old Jun 9, 2012, 09:39 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Happybunny View Post
It's not perfect, but after we have sent these young people into danger it's the least we can do.
What a sane thing to do.

Can that be why the U.S. is not doing as much?

I think that their numbers in deployment are far more staggering, to start with.
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Old Jun 9, 2012, 10:00 AM   #29
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Geestelijke gezondheidszorg ...
Here is how Google Translate interprets that ...

Quote:
mental health

The Military Mental Health (MGGZ) provides before, during and after the broadcast, a contribution to the care of soldiers.

Before the broadcast MGGZ provides lessons on stress prevention, aimed at recognizing and dealing with stress. Also get lessons on military trauma.

psychologists
During the broadcast there are psychologists. They have the following tasks:

support of primary care;
advising commanders.

These psychologists work together with doctors, social workers and spiritual caregivers, in a Social Medical Team.

return
Soldiers stay a few days after a mission in Crete. There follows a debriefing meeting with a psychologist and they get health information from a doctor.

aftercare
Upon return, there is a conversation between a psychologist and the military. In the future this is a group where the military the opportunity to still an individual call. After some time after returning to the part, followed by a return interview with social worker or chaplain. About 6 months after returning servicemen and their families receive an aftercare questionnaire. It can emerge if there are any physical or mental problems.

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It would be a shame if something similar isn't provided to U.S. soldiers ... and I suspect we do.
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Old Jun 9, 2012, 10:50 AM   #30
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It would be a shame if something similar isn't provided to U.S. soldiers ... and I suspect we do.
Be a good lad then, like Bunnykins, find out what actually does happen, and get back to us.

kthksbai
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Old Jun 9, 2012, 01:04 PM   #31
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Be a good lad then, like Bunnykins, find out what actually does happen, and get back to us.
So soon after I taking you off ignore you give me reason to reconsider that decision.

Thanks again for your sterling contributions.
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Old Jun 9, 2012, 02:51 PM   #32
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So soon after I taking you off ignore you give me reason to reconsider that decision.
See, first impressions are the best, as you have also proven.

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Thanks again for your sterling contributions.
And yet your "suspicions" do? I call that a lead contribution. See, alchemy at work.
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Old Jun 9, 2012, 04:51 PM   #33
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Isn't less soldiers always a good thing?

You should be banned.....
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Old Jun 9, 2012, 04:52 PM   #34
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You should be banned.....
Why?
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Old Jun 9, 2012, 04:56 PM   #35
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Why?
Did you think he was talking about Israeli soldiers..?? Hence your question..??
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Old Jun 9, 2012, 05:04 PM   #36
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You should be banned.....
I don't mind when people say outrageous things.

If it can be rebutted, then rebut it.

If it's just an emotional outburst, then I try not to take it too seriously.

Or expose it for what it's worth ... nothing.
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Old Jun 9, 2012, 05:20 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by chrono1081 View Post
I would love for whatever person who down ranked me to grow some balls and explain why.

If they think the military is well run they've obviously never served.

----------



The civilian side is much better. I was in the war twice. Once as a soldier, then again a few years later as a civilian. Its a lot less stress on the soldiers to have the menial and routine stuff taken care of by civilians (vehicle maintenance, cooking, infrastructure setup for computer systems (what I did), etc.
Of course the civilian side is less stressful, you're treated humanely.

If civilians were to run submarines they would have to make them twice as big and remove half the systems to have enough room to fit all people needed to get the boat underway.
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Old Jun 9, 2012, 05:31 PM   #38
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Did you think he was talking about Israeli soldiers..?? Hence your question..??
On what basis would you want to ban him? For expressing an opinion which you find odious?
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Old Jun 9, 2012, 05:43 PM   #39
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On what basis would you want to ban him? For expressing an opinion which you find odious?
You are correct of course, but if you take (marc)'s declaration out of context, it would be a good thing.
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Old Jun 10, 2012, 11:38 AM   #40
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This is something I've been reading about the past few years. A few theories are to why this is. I've come to believe it is a combination of these...
1) medical technology advances has resulted in people surviving greusome injuries that they would have died from years ago...the mental images of what has happened as well as physical wounds last both during and after wartime.
2) warfare has changed...guerrilla warfare harms morale far more than traditional warfare, and the impact is tremendous. Additionally, a common trait of guerrilla warfare is that determining who is 'the enemy' is at times difficult. Consequently, citizens can be mistaken for enemies, which has been an issue in the past few large wars. Obviously, killing a citizen whom is thought to be an enemy in itself will have grave psychological consequences.
3) mental health services are still lacking for those serving active duty, and a taboo around mental health treatment exists...this lack is even more pronounced for soldiers in the field.
4) SSRI antidepressants have become commonly administered to active duty soldiers...SSRIs have been occasionally linked in themselves to suicide.

But one thing that is for sure is that the psychological affects of war are extensive. So extensive that we learn more and more each year, as we continuously think we know but then realize we have underestimated the 'human costs' of war. The cost of war is tremendous and we do not see the real cost until decades after. Hopefully leaders of all countries continue to further understand and respect this, and exhaust all possibilities prior to armed conflict.




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Isn't less soldiers always a good thing?
This is about as ignorant of a comment that I have ever read on the internet in my life. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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Old Jun 10, 2012, 12:02 PM   #41
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I think there's been some thought given to the Falklands here and how it compared to the problems from wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Bosnia. I've heard it said that there was less combat stress problems following that war and it had also been suggested that it had something to do with the long sea journeys home - where all the troops were kept together for longish periods coming home.

I also think the point mentioned above about surviving horrible injuries is an interesting point - I knew someone who was very ill and suffered from that locked in type syndrome - when they eventually recovered it traumatised them quite badly - they struggle to lead a normal life now.
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Old Jun 10, 2012, 12:05 PM   #42
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What a disgusting thing to say. Unbelievable.
Almost as disgusting and unbelievable as invading a sovereign nation for no reason, killing thousands of innocent people in the process of doing so.

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You should be banned.....
Why?

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Originally Posted by Squadleader View Post
Did you think he was talking about Israeli soldiers..?? Hence your question..??
So you think the death of an Israeli soldier is less tragic than the death of a US soldier?

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Originally Posted by NickZac View Post
This is about as ignorant of a comment that I have ever read on the internet in my life. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Oh right, I forgot, I should be worshipping those mindless drones who are dumb enough to risk their lives for their criminal government.
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Old Jun 10, 2012, 12:37 PM   #43
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Gotta throw my hands up.. I do agree with him on all counts
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Old Jun 10, 2012, 04:13 PM   #44
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Oh right, I forgot, I should be worshipping those mindless drones who are dumb enough to risk their lives for their criminal government.
I think you should be looking a little further up the food chain.
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Old Jun 10, 2012, 05:05 PM   #45
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Oh right, I forgot, I should be worshipping those mindless drones who are dumb enough to risk their lives for their criminal government.
Worshipping and showing a little respect are two completely different things, and the level of generalization you have taken is tremendous. Would you have said about the Travon Martin case, "isn't less thugs a good thing" and dismissed him as a 'mindless drug user who is dumb enough to break a (stupid) law'? It's an equally poor line of thought and reasoning.
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Old Jun 10, 2012, 05:23 PM   #46
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Oh right, I forgot, I should be worshipping those mindless drones who are dumb enough to risk their lives for their criminal government.
What criminal act exactly are your referring to?

It's so simple to criticize. Soldiers are part of an organization, regardless of country, that does not promote rebellion and if you do rebel it has to be for more than a policy disagreement. I'm sure your integrity is such, if you were in such a situation, you would not look out for your fellow soldiers placed in a terrible situation. Instead you'd stand up proudly for what you believe in and march off to jail or the firing squad.
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Old Jun 10, 2012, 06:11 PM   #47
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What criminal act exactly are your referring to?

It's so simple to criticize. Soldiers are part of an organization, regardless of country, that does not promote rebellion and if you do rebel it has to be for more than a policy disagreement. I'm sure your integrity is such, if you were in such a situation, you would not look out for your fellow soldiers placed in a terrible situation. Instead you'd stand up proudly for what you believe in and march off to jail or the firing squad.
But that isn't the situation. Young guys are continually eating up the propaganda about 'protecting their country' and signing up.

But 'your' country isn't under attack. 'Your' country is invading other territories often with economic interests at heart. I'm sure if it was, (marc) would happily join the forces.

As it stands it's ridiculous. Young guys dying for an elite to get rich.

If they live they get to kill a few guys defending their own country, a bunch of innocent civilians in their own country, then return home for a pat on the back and some woolly talk about honour.
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Old Jun 10, 2012, 06:25 PM   #48
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But that isn't the situation. Young guys are continually eating up the propaganda about 'protecting their country' and signing up.
First of all, we need a draft. Secondly there is the official version of events and people who'd like a steady paycheck. Are you saying that in a similar situation, Brits would be much smarter than that?

Quote:
But 'your' country isn't under attack. 'Your' country is invading other territories often with economic interests at heart. I'm sure if it was, (marc) would happily join the forces.
But we were attacked. Afghanistan, home of the Taliban initially was justified imo. Iraq was a horrible manipulation of a situation, by a political party who I can not stand, controlled by neo-cons who felt if we control a country in the Middle East it would be win-win, a friendly country in the Middle East and lots of money to be made. Just don't think about the soldiers losing their lives. Frankly I am disgusted and embarrassed we wasted so much time, lives, and money there.

What economic interests do you think we have in Afghanistan? Now Afghanistan is a mistake and I'm pissed that Obama did not pull us out of there at least 2 years ago. They can simply wait us out. They can wait a lifetime. We can't afford to.

Quote:
As it stands it's ridiculous. Young guys dying for an elite to get rich.

If they live they get to kill a few guys defending their own country, a bunch of innocent civilians in their own country, then return home for a pat on the back and some woolly talk about honour.
I get your drift but in Afghanistan? Unless you are talking about war contractors who I can't stand either. The U.S. can no longer afford to be the world's policeman and based on our track record for the last decade, we don't deserve to be. We've got to get our fiscal house in order before we can afford to look outside our own borders. And guess what? I have absolutely no confidence in our ability to do that, none. You might guess who I tend to blame the most.
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Old Jun 10, 2012, 06:33 PM   #49
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First of all, we need a draft. Secondly there is the official version of events and people who'd like a steady paycheck. Are you saying that in a similar situation, Brits would be much smarter than that?



But we were attacked. Afghanistan, home of the Taliban initially was justified imo.
Afghanistan attacked the US?
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Old Jun 10, 2012, 06:47 PM   #50
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First of all, we need a draft. Secondly there is the official version of events and people who'd like a steady paycheck. Are you saying that in a similar situation, Brits would be much smarter than that?
It's not the Brits are smarter, it's just that we're a lot more cynical about government propaganda - and we have a lot less of the machismo and blind militaristic support that exists in the US.
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