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Old Jun 11, 2012, 10:56 AM   #76
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The alternative certainly hasn't.

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I'm implying that the people of Afghanistan, even the Taliban, had little to do with 19 foreigners flying planes into tall buildings. Exemplary punishment is outlawed under the Geneva Conventions.
I applaud your statement, but find it worrying the the UK was the first in line to join the US in Afghanistan.

Then in 2003 under the pretext of WMD that could be deployed in 45 minutes, invaded another country along with the USA. This action was not sanctioned by the UN, and as we no know it was all for oil.

The hands of the UK are hardly much cleaner than that of the USA.
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Old Jun 11, 2012, 10:59 AM   #77
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I applaud your statement, but find it worrying the the UK was the first in line to join the US in Afghanistan.

Then in 2003 under the pretext of WMD that could be deployed in 45 minutes, invaded another country along with the USA. This action was not sanctioned by the UN, and as we no know it was all for oil.

The hands of the UK are hardly much cleaner than that of the USA.
Indeed they are not, but it was not an expression of the public will.
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Old Jun 11, 2012, 10:59 AM   #78
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I'm implying that the people of Afghanistan, even the Taliban, had little to do with 19 foreigners flying planes into tall buildings. Exemplary punishment is outlawed under the Geneva Conventions.
That's a cheap shot. It does not matter where they trained or were they were from, they represented Al-Aaeda, the group that attacked. Afghanistan was their safe haven. The Taliban were providing the safe haven. When it comes to aggressive attacks against their home land, every country makes a decision about what they can accept. I understand you don't agree. My support of going after Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan initially was a reasonable response imo. The key word is "initially". I'm not making excuses for every move the U.S. has made since then. IMO, the Iraq War was criminal. The U.S. like most other outsiders are into the Middle East for oil. It's caused us to many problems, too much money, and too many lives over the years.

For perspective I'd like to know what nationality you are or is that a secret?
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Old Jun 11, 2012, 11:04 AM   #79
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Indeed they are not, but it was not an expression of the public will.
Point taken, I also remember the vast crowds in London with banners 'Not in my name'

Some Dutch people I know joined one of these demonstrations, in the hope that would prevent the war.


I firmly believe that Mr T Blair was infatuated with George 'W' and the reception that he got in the US post 9/11.
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Old Jun 11, 2012, 11:05 AM   #80
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Anyway, it's coming to an end now. Troops coming out of Afghanistan, Bin Laden was got. They just need to get Bush and Blair and that chapter can close.
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Old Jun 11, 2012, 11:06 AM   #81
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For perspective I'd like to know what nationality you are or is that a secret?
My location says it all.

And it certainly does matter. The attack was completely disproportionate and thousands of people unconnected in any way with the perpetrators died.
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Old Jun 11, 2012, 11:07 AM   #82
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Point taken, I also remember the vast crowds in London with banners 'Not in my name'
It was, I think, the biggest demonstration here ever.
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Old Jun 11, 2012, 11:17 AM   #83
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My location says it all.

And it certainly does matter. The attack was completely disproportionate and thousands of people unconnected in any way with the perpetrators died.
Your location says nothing. So fine, it's a secret. You like arguing a point with an unfair advantage.

I agree with you that what has come since our initial attacks against Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan has been disproportionate. What more would you like me to say?
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Old Jun 11, 2012, 11:39 AM   #84
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Clearly I don't speak for Skunk, but cutting a deal to extradite Al-Qaeda operatives would have been no.1. The Taliban can be dealt with, and the Taliban are not Al-Qaeda.
That was tried and it failed. Bin Laden was being pursued well before 9/11 (the embassy bombings, bombing of the USS Cole), even more so thereafter. Repeated attempts through intermediaries failed to get the Taliban to turn over Bin Laden and other Al-Qaeda members.

You are correct that the Taliban are not AlQaeda, but but both before and after 9/11, the Taliban protected them and would not extradite them (even to countries other than the US).
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Last edited by VulchR; Jun 11, 2012 at 11:50 AM.
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Old Jun 11, 2012, 11:49 AM   #85
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Isn't less soldiers always a good thing?

If people want to downsize the military (less Soldiers) I don't think most people want them to die (combat or suicide).

So less Soldiers may be a good thing for some people, but not due to the loss of life. Less Soldiers due to peace is more desirable, though unlikely.
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Old Jun 11, 2012, 11:57 AM   #86
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Indeed they are not, but it was not an expression of the public will.
Not necessarily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular...vasion_of_Iraq
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Old Jun 11, 2012, 11:58 AM   #87
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Arn /= United States Government

Or are you using the phrase "free speech" obtusely?
Arn?

Anyway ...

I don't think I'm using the phrase obtusely. MacRumors has its own form of a governing body and rules that regulate what is and is not acceptable speech. I believe that as long as a member does not violate those rules, then they should be free to express whatever idea or opinion they wish.

If their "speech" is too offensive to some, then those offended have the option of rebutting the post, putting that member on their ignore list, down voting their post, or simply rolling their eyes and moving on.

Seeking to ban that member in order to save oneself the trouble of being exposed to their posts is a form of suppression. And I believe we can do better than that.
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Old Jun 11, 2012, 12:07 PM   #88
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Arn?
If you don't know who Arn is, then you need to get out of the PRSI to visit the rest of the site more. If you do know who Arn is, and you are saying you don't understand that Arn/macrumors banning a member is not the equivalent of the United States government denying a citizen his/her right to free speech, then you are indeed being needlessly obtuse, still.

Either way, I question why I bother.
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Old Jun 11, 2012, 12:49 PM   #89
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Either way, I question why I bother.
I do too.
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Old Jun 11, 2012, 01:55 PM   #90
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Your location says nothing.
UK-istan. Still not clear enough?

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Originally Posted by VulchR View Post
That was tried and it failed. Bin Laden was being pursued well before 9/11 (the embassy bombings, bombing of the USS Cole), even more so thereafter. Repeated attempts through intermediaries failed to get the Taliban to turn over Bin Laden and other Al-Qaeda members.

You are correct that the Taliban are not AlQaeda, but but both before and after 9/11, the Taliban protected them and would not extradite them (even to countries other than the US).
More sustained pressure might have worked, and it would certainly have been preferable to carpet bombing.
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Old Jun 11, 2012, 02:05 PM   #91
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UK-istan. Still not clear enough?
Doh... Ah-Hah!
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Old Jun 11, 2012, 02:05 PM   #92
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courtesy of urbandictionary.com


1. UKistan

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. UKistan is a perjorative, used in the context of the increasing influence of Islam in the UK, as a result of high levels of muslim immigration.
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Old Jun 11, 2012, 02:08 PM   #93
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courtesy of urbandictionary.com


1. UKistan

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. UKistan is a perjorative, used in the context of the increasing influence of Islam in the UK, as a result of high levels of muslim immigration.
I googled this and the urbandictionary did not come to my rescue.
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Old Jun 11, 2012, 09:26 PM   #94
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And it certainly does matter. The attack was completely disproportionate and thousands of people unconnected in any way with the perpetrators died.
Many thousands, actually.

The figures you normally hear are:
2000 Americans
500 Brits
150 Canadians
100 French
and a few hundred from other NATO countries


And then you have Afghan casualties...
10,000 + Afghan Security Forces

And then you have civilians...
14,000 Afghan civilians (conservative estimate)


So as many civilians have died in this war soldiers. Even if Afghanistan hosted the Taliban and allowed them to operate within their country (which I believe is true based on what I have read), that doesn't justify the deaths of 14,000 innocent people who had absolutely nothing to do with any armed conflict whatsoever. No way. Fourteen-thousand civilians.
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Old Jun 12, 2012, 02:47 AM   #95
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Many thousands, actually.

The figures you normally hear are:
2000 Americans
500 Brits
150 Canadians
100 French
and a few hundred from other NATO countries


And then you have Afghan casualties...
10,000 + Afghan Security Forces

And then you have civilians...
14,000 Afghan civilians (conservative estimate)


So as many civilians have died in this war soldiers. Even if Afghanistan hosted the Taliban and allowed them to operate within their country (which I believe is true based on what I have read), that doesn't justify the deaths of 14,000 innocent people who had absolutely nothing to do with any armed conflict whatsoever. No way. Fourteen-thousand civilians.
Some of this can be explained because to the 'Neocons' who ran the White House and the Pentagon, Afghans didn't count as people.

The death toll in Afghanistan pales into insignificance when compared with Iraq.
http://www.civicworldwide.org/index....FQwjfAodBi0lZA
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Old Jun 12, 2012, 09:37 AM   #96
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More sustained pressure might have worked, and it would certainly have been preferable to carpet bombing.
'Carpet bombing'? Certainly not in cities, and certainly not with the intention of killing civilians. In contrast, in 2011 80% of Afghanistan civilian deaths were due to the Taliban and other anti-government forces (Source: UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan).
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Old Jun 12, 2012, 11:50 AM   #97
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Some of this can be explained because to the 'Neocons' who ran the White House and the Pentagon, Afghans didn't count as people.

The death toll in Afghanistan pales into insignificance when compared with Iraq.
http://www.civicworldwide.org/index....FQwjfAodBi0lZA
The death toll in Iraq is just unspeakable (and unfortunately in at least the US, it never is spoken of). OVER 100,000 CIVILIANS. (and some estimates are over 150,000)...can you imagine that? Relative to the US, that would be like having 1.5 million American civilians die. I agree that it sometimes at least seems as if we have forgotten that Afghans and Iraqis are people...both political sides have been guilty of this..perhaps one more so than the other though... The American media has overlooked this. And then Iraqi Security that was fighting with NATO Coalition Forces have lost another near 20,000 Iraqis, which is more than all Coalition Forces deaths combined and multiplied by 3. If any good can come out of these wars, it will be knowledge that will result in future leaders doing a hell of a lot more to avoid having a recurrence of what has happened.
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Old Jun 12, 2012, 01:37 PM   #98
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'Carpet bombing'? Certainly not in cities, and certainly not with the intention of killing civilians. In contrast, in 2011 80% of Afghanistan civilian deaths were due to the Taliban and other anti-government forces (Source: UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan).
Regular Afghan soldiers were carpet-bombed in their tens of thousands to "soften them up" (translation: "obliterate"), just as tens of thousands of Iraqi soldiers were obliterated in GW1. As for civilians, 20% is a not insignificant percentage, especially since overall civilian deaths were 15% up on the previous year. Perhaps if Western powers were not propping up a puppet government, the Afghans themselves would be a lot nearer to a political solution.

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courtesy of urbandictionary.com


1. UKistan

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. UKistan is a perjorative, used in the context of the increasing influence of Islam in the UK, as a result of high levels of muslim immigration.
Incorrect. My invented term has nothing to do with the influence of Islam, and everything to do with levelling perceptions and countering WASP exceptionalism.
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Old Jun 12, 2012, 02:17 PM   #99
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countering WASP exceptionalism.
Too many neo-nazi's in your neighborhood?
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Old Jun 12, 2012, 03:11 PM   #100
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.... Perhaps if Western powers were not propping up a puppet government, the Afghans themselves would be a lot nearer to a political solution.
More than three million Afghans cast valid votes in the last elections, which hardly sounds like a puppet government. And of course, we all know that once the coalition leaves, Iran, Pakistan, India, and the other neighboring countries will allow the people of Afghanistan govern themselves in peace without outside interference. Just like when the Taliban last in power.
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