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Old Aug 8, 2012, 09:41 AM   #301
throttlemeister
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While Googling I found a tip regarding lagginess in Lion (not retina related) that suggested disabling System/Library/Extensions/AppleGraphicsPowerManagement.kext. Tried that, and it does make a noticeable different, albeit at the expense of additional heat and noise. It appears Apple very aggressively throttles the GPU to keep heat and fan noise down on the desktop. When I run xbench UI test (yeah, I know, xbench sucks) the numbers go from ~90 (with AGPM) to ~180 (without AGPM), so about double the performance.

It seems we only get full graphics performance with games that directly address hardware.

Note: I am running the GT650, not internal.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 10:17 AM   #302
nontroppo
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Cool This is at best a visual glitch, not UI lag...

The lag on my rMBP is irrelevant, it is not lag in the sense that the UI is just as responsive, even in the very few times there is a visual jump. Lag for me is what I get on my Android, where jumpy UI animations delay subsequent user input.

Therefore for my needs, there is no significant issue with UI performance, and certainly no "real" lag[1]. The density of the display, especially the rendering of text and how wonderfully opentype glyphs are represented[2], is nothing short of spectacular. My 27" cinema display is looking so fuzzy now...

----
[1] wish I could say the same about the retina MBP's wifi -- which with bluetooth enabled is slow and highly variable, and introduces genuine lag as transactions just hang waiting for a response. Terrible!
[2] Apple's font renderer was often criticised by Windows users as "soft" as hinting to pixel boundaries was not as rigid as Windows Cleartype; I always preferred Apple's more faithful glyph representation, and now this is even more advantageous on high density displays!!!
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 11:06 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Roman2K~ View Post
I'm no rMBP owner yet, but I have experienced the infamous scrolling lag at an Apple Store yesterday. Honestly I don't know what you all are on about.

It definitely did happen on the three 2.3/8/256/ML that I tested, but it wasn't particularly annoying as the OS remained responsive at all times. Only the area being scrolled was laggy. Meanwhile, no freeze or even the slightest peep of slow down anywhere else. Everything else kept running and moving like normal in parallel.

Out of Safari (bunch of content-heavy sites), Mail, Notes, Reminders, Finder, iTunes, a few others, gesture- and Dock-triggered animations, the only places where I noticed lags (granted, they were significant):
  1. Scrolling down a long, heavy Facebook page.
  2. Scrolling down a mail thread (right pane) in Mail, even a short single-mail one.
Worth mentioning, those two places were not perfect on a 13" MBA, meaning way better but not perfectly smooth either.

Switching spaces did stutter once or twice very briefly (noticed it because I was focusing on the smoothness, or lack thereof).

Aside from that, I hammered the poor rMBPs with gestures in plenty of apps, including long pages and relatively long and rich pages (not Facebook), expecting stutters like mentioned here, but nothing except the occasional micro-stutter while switching spaces. More importantly, stutter or not, all gestures registered instantly and animations lasted the same time (their end time wasn't offset by the stutter-induced delays).

Really, I was going to the store expecting productivity-hindering lags after having read these forums lately. In the end, the rMBPs are nothing short of mind-blowing in every way. These scrolling lags are the exception, not the rule, and even when they happen, can be looked past comfortably. Not to mention, this is all software. Given the improvements some have noticed going from Lion to Mountain Lion, one can expect further improvements in the future.
It's likely that those RMBP were using the integrated graphics vs. discrete GPU. That makes a big difference in graphics performance.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 11:08 AM   #304
Wingzero
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Quote:
Originally Posted by throttlemeister View Post
While Googling I found a tip regarding lagginess in Lion (not retina related) that suggested disabling System/Library/Extensions/AppleGraphicsPowerManagement.kext. Tried that, and it does make a noticeable different, albeit at the expense of additional heat and noise. It appears Apple very aggressively throttles the GPU to keep heat and fan noise down on the desktop. When I run xbench UI test (yeah, I know, xbench sucks) the numbers go from ~90 (with AGPM) to ~180 (without AGPM), so about double the performance.

It seems we only get full graphics performance with games that directly address hardware.

Note: I am running the GT650, not internal.
How much heat and noise are talking about ?
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 11:15 AM   #305
AZREOSpecialist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by throttlemeister View Post
While Googling I found a tip regarding lagginess in Lion (not retina related) that suggested disabling System/Library/Extensions/AppleGraphicsPowerManagement.kext. Tried that, and it does make a noticeable different, albeit at the expense of additional heat and noise. It appears Apple very aggressively throttles the GPU to keep heat and fan noise down on the desktop. When I run xbench UI test (yeah, I know, xbench sucks) the numbers go from ~90 (with AGPM) to ~180 (without AGPM), so about double the performance.

It seems we only get full graphics performance with games that directly address hardware.

Note: I am running the GT650, not internal.
All that does is remove the "Automatic Graphics Switching" option from the Energy Saver preference pane. It simply forces use of the discrete GPU vs integrated graphics. You can accomplish the same thing by simply unchecking the automatic graphics switching box in Energy Saver.

What am I missing?
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 11:25 AM   #306
Wingzero
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Originally Posted by AZREOSpecialist View Post
All that does is remove the "Automatic Graphics Switching" option from the Energy Saver preference pane. It simply forces use of the discrete GPU vs integrated graphics. You can accomplish the same thing by simply unchecking the automatic graphics switching box in Energy Saver.

What am I missing?
You are missing the fact that Mac OS X and indeed Windows 7 have GPU power states.

When gaming you get a full power state which will be the stock GPU clocks (I think 850Mhz for the 650M).

But on the desktop Mac OS X will be down clocking this to probably around 0-100/200Mhz for power consumption reasons and heat. Unfortunately Apple have been far too aggressive with this which is what is causing the lag we are getting I believe.

For the 2011 MBP's this is no issue because at 1680x1050 a lower power state AMD 6750M will easily handle that amount of pixel pushing.

But with 2880x1800 pixels to push and in turn scaling and downscaling in the 1920x1200 mode, the GT650M at a lower power state just cannot deliver the performance needed.

Removing this kext will be enabling full power state for the GT650 upping the clock speed and allowed the card to deliver the performance we require.


I am going to do some testing on this later and report back my findings, I'm also going to take a deeper look at this particular kext and confirm if it is doing the power state management I have been referring to.

Oh and for those that are skeptical, I did testing once for an osx86 project (Hackintosh) on unsupported Nvidia cards (GTX480);

http://www.insanelymac.com/forum/ind...owtopic=266036
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 11:34 AM   #307
AZREOSpecialist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingzero View Post
You are missing the fact that Mac OS X and indeed Windows 7 have GPU power states.

When gaming you get a full power state which will be the stock GPU clocks (I think 850Mhz for the 650M).

But on the desktop Mac OS X will be down clocking this to probably around 0-100/200Mhz for power consumption reasons and heat. Unfortunately Apple have been far too aggressive with this which is what is causing the lag we are getting I believe.

For the 2011 MBP's this is no issue because at 1680x1050 a lower power state AMD 6750M will easily handle that amount of pixel pushing.

But with 2880x1800 pixels to push and in turn scaling and downscaling in the 1920x1200 mode, the GT650M at a lower power state just cannot deliver the performance needed.

Removing this kext will be enabling full power state for the GT650 upping the clock speed and allowed the card to deliver the performance we require.


I am going to do some testing on this later and report back my findings, I'm also going to take a deeper look at this particular kext and confirm if it is doing the power state management I have been referring to.

Oh and for those that are skeptical, I did testing once for an osx86 project (Hackintosh) on unsupported Nvidia cards (GTX480);

http://www.insanelymac.com/forum/ind...owtopic=266036
Please let us know your findings. I've watched videos about removing the kext in question, and while it may speed up the graphics, it also removes the automatic switching option in the energy saver panel. While it may do other things, everyone is going to get a big performance boost simply by turning off the integrated graphics. Uncheck the box.

If removing this kext is giving us other benefits, I would love to know.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 01:22 PM   #308
throttlemeister
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Originally Posted by Wingzero View Post
How much heat and noise are talking about ?
GPU temperatures while doing light office work ~65-70C, fan speeds ~3000rpm versus temps of ~45-50C and fan speeds ~2000rpm with the kext installed as it comes from the factory.

EDIT: both using nvidia graphics, just to make clear.

Speed difference is quite noticeable. Virtually no jerky motion anywhere anymore and even a site like theverge in safari only lightly stutters once or twice while scrolling. Not sure I am comfortable running those temperatures constantly though.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 01:31 PM   #309
Wingzero
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Originally Posted by throttlemeister View Post
GPU temperatures while doing light office work ~65-70C, fan speeds ~3000rpm versus temps of ~45-50C and fan speeds ~2000rpm with the kext installed as it comes from the factory.

EDIT: both using nvidia graphics, just to make clear.

Speed difference is quite noticeable. Virtually no jerky motion anywhere anymore and even a site like theverge in safari only lightly stutters once or twice while scrolling. Not sure I am comfortable running those temperatures constantly though.
How did you disable this just delete it ?
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 01:39 PM   #310
throttlemeister
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Originally Posted by Wingzero View Post
How did you disable this just delete it ?
I renamed it to .disable (instead of .kext) and rebuild the kext cache. Undoing is the reverse, i.e. rename from .disable to .kext and rebuild cache.

I tried looking for the necessary keys to edit it, as some (you) have done for hackintoshes, but it appears that at least on ML the necessary keys are missing. Or I am missing something. If we can somehow edit the power states we can maybe bump the speed a bit without it going nuts with heat and fans to the point we get a good compromise.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 01:40 PM   #311
Wingzero
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Originally Posted by throttlemeister View Post
I renamed it to .disable (instead of .kext) and rebuild the kext cache. Undoing is the reverse, i.e. rename from .disable to .kext and rebuild cache.

I tried looking for the necessary keys to edit it, as some (you) have done for hackintoshes, but it appears that at least on ML the necessary keys are missing. Or I am missing something.
yeah just erased it by accident oops lol.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 01:52 PM   #312
throttlemeister
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email me if you need a copy.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 02:12 PM   #313
Wingzero
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Originally Posted by throttlemeister View Post
email me if you need a copy.
Yeah send me it please.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 03:57 PM   #314
Wingzero
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I can confirm, disabling the kext, then turning off automatic switching.


Fixes the lag.


- Swiping between spaces
- Scrolling
- In and out of mission control
- Window animations
- Sending applications to full screen
- Using scaled resolutions (1920x1200)


All of the above are lag free when doing what I did.

It seems it is a power state issue then.


However the Retina Macbook is much warmer to touch whilst doing this option.

Leaving it up to everyone to decide whether it is worth the trade off.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 05:47 PM   #315
tau101
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Originally Posted by Wingzero View Post
I can confirm, disabling the kext, then turning off automatic switching.


Fixes the lag.


- Swiping between spaces
- Scrolling
- In and out of mission control
- Window animations
- Sending applications to full screen
- Using scaled resolutions (1920x1200)


All of the above are lag free when doing what I did.

It seems it is a power state issue then.


However the Retina Macbook is much warmer to touch whilst doing this option.

Leaving it up to everyone to decide whether it is worth the trade off.
This is huge news. I will unpack my one before I return it to test this. Thanks for this tip. I use a good cooler at all times so this is a very viable option for me.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 06:02 PM   #316
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I can confirm that works.It gets a little smoother, but gpu gets a little warmer too.About 65c-70c
But if you install gfxCardStatus,you can switch to intel gpu,then temperature drops down to 45c-49c

Last edited by Pakistani; Aug 8, 2012 at 06:10 PM.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 06:11 PM   #317
Wingzero
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Without delving deeper into the kext and working a few things out it's a little difficult to say what the exact clocks are that the power state by default is for the GT650M.

This also explains why some people have reported if a lot of applications are running it gets a bit smoother, as the more apps needing rendering, GPU drawing etc will eventually push it into the full clock state.


If Apple decide to add a new state for the 650M say 400Mhz, which would give better performance and a smoother UI, but also be a bit more conservative on power consumption and heat then that would be perfect.


However I doubt they will do this straight off the bat.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 06:18 PM   #318
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This is huge news. I will unpack my one before I return it to test this. Thanks for this tip. I use a good cooler at all times so this is a very viable option for me.
LOL surely this cannot be true! According to Chrome now it is running through theverge.com on the 1920 equivalent setting with other things running at 47fps, at the 1680 at 54fps, and at 1440 at 58fps.

Further, it has just dawned on me that this is under Lion since I did a fresh installation after wiping my data, not even Mountain Lion. GPU running at 58C.

Surely there must be a good reason for having the cap in place? Will this not fry the battery, maybe? Isn't the battery supposed to keep cool for optimum life? Mine is now running at 33C, when it is normally at 30C.

Hmm, I'll make the sacrifice... Everything runs perfectly smooth now.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 06:26 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by jlblodgett View Post
That is interesting.

I didn't notice any such lag on the machine I played with today. Of course, I kept the display settings on the default retina setting.

It seems like the scaling is what really screws things up.
...can I ask is yout rMBP has 8 or 16Gb memory ram.?
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 06:31 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by tau101 View Post
LOL surely this cannot be true! According to Chrome now it is running through theverge.com on the 1920 equivalent setting with other things running at 47fps, at the 1680 at 54fps, and at 1440 at 58fps.

Further, it has just dawned on me that this is under Lion since I did a fresh installation after wiping my data, not even Mountain Lion. GPU running at 58C.

Surely there must be a good reason for having the cap in place? Will this not fry the battery, maybe? Isn't the battery supposed to keep cool for optimum life? Mine is now running at 33C, when it is normally at 30C.

Hmm, I'll make the sacrifice... Everything runs perfectly smooth now.
Heat and power consumption are the main reasons they have gpu states.


Windows is exactly the same, however no current Windows PC is rendering at 2880x1800 or even higher.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 06:33 PM   #321
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Originally Posted by Wingzero View Post
Heat and power consumption are the main reasons they have gpu states.


Windows is exactly the same, however no current Windows PC is rendering at 2880x1800 or even higher.
I couldn't resist installing Mountain Lion. Soon.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 06:34 PM   #322
Wingzero
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I couldn't resist installing Mountain Lion. Soon.
No worries, I'm under ML and the fix worked on mine no reason why it shouldn't for you.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 06:50 PM   #323
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I couldn't resist installing Mountain Lion. Soon.
Everything working at 50-60fps.

Last edited by tau101; Aug 8, 2012 at 06:58 PM.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 07:11 PM   #324
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Image Everything working at 50-60fps.
What temps are you getting after an hour or so of usage? Is it still comfortable enough (cool enough) to use?
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 07:27 PM   #325
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Guys, I just tried this on my end. Without doing anything, just browsing a web page, things are starting to get pretty warm in the metal area between the keyboard and the screen. The heat was bordering on hot and uncomfortable to touch. Keyboard started feeling warm, too.

I've changed things back to the way they were. Temps are back to normal and metal surfaces are back to room temperature. Until we have more data, I'm not going to risk the health of my laptop.
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