Mac OS X x86 uses TCPA

Omen88 · Jul 22, 2005

I've been following the progress on trying to run Mac OS X on a regular x86 by some people. It's been really interesting to see how far they have come.

Now they have stumbled on the following according to a post on their forum:
We found out that the Rosetta kernel uses TCPA/TPM DRM.
Currently their are no ways known to get the GUI working on non-Apple hardware, with this protected kernel.
Even with a SSE3 enabled cpu you will never get the GUI.
Read more about TCPA here: http://www.againsttcpa.com/tcpa-faq-en.html

Apple really made sure that it won't be easy to run OS X on non Apple hardware, not even the transition box version.

Btw, what they mean with the Rosetta kernel is the kernel that is installed on the transition boxes. It is different from the darwin kernel, as it integrates support for rosetta.

Hope this hasn't been posted before.

wrldwzrd89 · Jul 23, 2005

I figured Apple would use a solution like that to protect their hardware/software combination. Somehow, I don't think that's all Apple will do to make their Intel Macs proprietary, though.

BGil · Jul 23, 2005

So, Apple is basically using Palladium on their new Mactels. Anyone remember all the Slashdot-FUD people were speading about Microsoft and Palladium?

I bet Apple solders their procs to the mobo so you can't swap them out. If they didn't then many people who just go to NewEgg and buy a new proc instead of buying a new machine. Either Apple does that or they customize the bios for each machine os it only works with a certain proc of a certain speed.

Loke · Jul 30, 2005

It sickens me to see hundreds of posts like "Buuhuu what a crap update", while this thread - about 1000 times more important - has 3 replies.

MS has had to take all sort of **** from all over the web for its flirting with TCPA. Steve Jobs on the other hand has done something Microsoft could only dream of. By snapping his finger and moving the entire line to Intel CPUs, he also got the benefit of integrating TCPA in EVERY Mac sold. And what do you - the customers - say? "Its needed to protect OSX from running on regular x86 hardware" Talk about SJ Distortion Field!!!!

This is a joke. You should all be *very* upset and angry over this move, and while youre at it get a PowerPC Mac without TCPA while you can. The rest of you: prepare to be ass****ed - because thats what TCPA does in the end.

iindigo · Jul 30, 2005

Loke said:
It sickens me to see hundreds of posts like "Buuhuu what a crap update", while this thread - about 1000 times more important - has 3 replies.

MS has had to take all sort of **** from all over the web for its flirting with TCPA. Steve Jobs on the other hand has done something Microsoft could only dream of. By snapping his finger and moving the entire line to Intel CPUs, he also got the benefit of integrating TCPA in EVERY Mac sold. And what do you - the customers - say? "Its needed to protect OSX from running on regular x86 hardware" Talk about SJ Distortion Field!!!!

This is a joke. You should all be *very* upset and angry over this move, and while youre at it get a PowerPC Mac without TCPA while you can. The rest of you: prepare to be ass****ed - because thats what TCPA does in the end.

I might be wrong, but I think TCPA is just a temporary thing for the Dev machines - It just seems like Apple is the type to develop their own protection system instead of using someone else's. I think Apple just grabbed TCPA for the time being seeing as that's what's already available.

Remember, Apple doesn't even put a serial number into the OS X installation - why would they go and DRM the whole machine?

quidire · Jul 30, 2005

iindigo said:
I might be wrong, but I think TCPA is just a temporary thing for the Dev machines - It just seems like Apple is the type to develop their own protection system instead of using someone else's. I think Apple just grabbed TCPA for the time being seeing as that's what's already available.

Remember, Apple doesn't even put a serial number into the OS X installation - why would they go and DRM the whole machine?

I don't see the two as the same at all.

Apple has a direct interest in ensuring that the allure of its OS drives sales of its hardware. Thus "DRMing" its OS to only run on its hardware makes perfect sense.

Conversely they don't care as much if some upgrades of their OS are installed illegitimately, for if the entire Mac user base (in the main) upgrades, then ISVs will start relying more on the new OS version's features, and in turn convince the Mac users to upgrade their applications, creating demand for better performance, driving hardware sales.

So long as the TCPA is only used for OS execution rights, and probably for iTunes authorising I don't see a problem with it. The technology is only as insidious as the software that uses it ;-)

-RS

pdpfilms · Jul 30, 2005

Ok, so i may be missing something huge here, but why on earth is this TCPA going to -as Loke so eliquently said- ass**** us? Isn't it just a system to ensure that OSX stays attached to Apple hardware? Isn't that how it's always been? Isn't that how we WANT it to be?

JeffTL · Jul 30, 2005

I suspect a nonstandard firmware also on the final hardware -- possibly Open Firmware, but cosidering Intel's involvement, EFI seems more likely to me.

Loke · Jul 30, 2005

Those of you who think TCPA/TPM in your Macs are something innocent and insignificant, should really read up on what corporations can do when their userbase is installed on a TCPA-enabled plattform:

http://www.againsttcpa.com/what-is-tcpa.html
http://www.protectprivacy.org/topic--lang-en.html
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.html

We all know Apple will be selling movies soon through its iTunes framework. And we all know the recording labels and movie companies want to *control* how we use legally purchased media. And Apple wont be allowed to sell their media without this control.

I agree that Apple has been fairly light on copy-control in the past, but by now you should realize that the media labels will NEVER back down on their ridiculous claims for control. And if Apple is to continue being the dominant player in this market, they have to react and react now. Content delivery will be the next big thing, wether its digital media or applications.

Seeing as Microsoft has received alot of bad press when utilizing "Trusted computing", Apple really needed some clever scheme in order to integrate TPM in their machines in order to avoid this negative publisity. This is where the move to Intel comes into play. Sure Intel make great CPUs, but they are also the *number one* innovator in the TCPA-field. They have invested millions of dollars in R&D. By now already, your warning bells should be going of like crazy.

I know you like Apple. I know you like OSX. I even got a Mac myself. But if you are so naive and dumb - pardon me for saying so - and think a TPM in your intel-Mac is a good idea, you´ve already lost your freedom.

You need to let Apple know this is something you do not want. You need to show this by not buying their TCPA-enabled products. You need to send them emails and complain about this. Do not be ignorant fools with regards to this matter. Once Apple leads you down this path, there is no way back. And trust me - the control they gain over you and your computer will only increase by time. Little by little, corporations will take away your freedom. And freedom isnt something which comes for free - its something you have to fight for, every day.

pdpfilms · Jul 30, 2005

Those of you who think TCPA/TPM in your Macs are something innocent and insignificant, should really read up on what corporations can do when their userbase is installed on a TCPA-enabled plattform:

http://www.againsttcpa.com/what-is-tcpa.html
http://www.protectprivacy.org/topic--lang-en.html
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.html

We all know Apple will be selling movies soon through its iTunes framework. And we all know the recording labels and movie companies want to *control* how we use legally purchased media. And Apple wont be allowed to sell their media without this control.

I agree that Apple has been fairly light on copy-control in the past, but by now you should realize that the media labels will NEVER back down on their ridiculous claims for control. And if Apple is to continue being the dominant player in this market, they have to react and react now. Content delivery will be the next big thing, wether its digital media or applications.

Seeing as Microsoft has received alot of bad press when utilizing "Trusted computing", Apple really needed some clever scheme in order to integrate TPM in their machines in order to avoid this negative publisity. This is where the move to Intel comes into play. Sure Intel make great CPUs, but they are also the *number one* innovator in the TCPA-field. They have invested millions of dollars in R&D. By now already, your warning bells should be going of like crazy.

I know you like Apple. I know you like OSX. I even got a Mac myself. But if you are so naive and dumb - pardon me for saying so - and think a TPM in your intel-Mac is a good idea, you´ve already lost your freedom.

You need to let Apple know this is something you do not want. You need to show this by not buying their TCPA-enabled products. You need to send them emails and complain about this. Do not be ignorant fools with regards to this matter. Once Apple leads you down this path, there is no way back. And trust me - the control they gain over you and your computer will only increase by time. Little by little, corporations will take away your freedom. And freedom isnt something which comes for free - its something you have to fight for, every day.

Wooooaaaaa Nelly! Sounds like we got a budding rioter on our hands!!

Honestly though... i know you are VERY adament about your stance, but don't you think these sources are just a liiiiitle bit biased?

Quote #1-
The informational self-determination isn't existing anymore, it's not possible to save, copy, create, program, ..., the data like you want. This applies for privates as for companies

No more copying? no more creating? no more SAVING? Excuse me.... but doesn't that COMPLETELY null the use of a computer altogether?

Quote #2- The liberty of opinion and the free speech on the internet would finally be eliminated

You have to be PSYCHO to think this could actually be accomplished.

Quote #3- Probably the world would break into two digital parts (Countries that express against TCPA)

Probably, like, yeah right. Nice english, and nice prediction there buddy.

Honestly I see no problem with Mac Intel computers employing a solution to allow only approved hardware. That's basically what's going on today, though it's not tagged with the TCPA name or has nuts chainsawing it to pieces. What if OSX was opened up to ALL hardware? Then it would follow the same fate as windows. If this is the only thing TCPA does, then i approve. If it is able to prevent us from saving or creating, will fully censor the internet, and cause a worldwide digital diploidation, please enlighten me on how it will do so.

Loke · Jul 30, 2005

pdpfilms said:
Honestly I see no problem with Mac Intel computers employing a solution to allow only approved hardware. That's basically what's going on today, though it's not tagged with the TCPA name or has nuts chainsawing it to pieces.

There is no form of content control regarding installing OSX on non-approved Apple hardware today. Its only stated in the EULA that you are not allowed to install OSX on non-apple hardware. You can build yourself a PowerPC today, and install OSX on it you know.

What if OSX was opened up to ALL hardware? Then it would follow the same fate as windows. If this is the only thing TCPA does, then i approve. If it is able to prevent us from saving or creating, will fully censor the internet, and cause a worldwide digital diploidation, please enlighten me on how it will do so.

How do you know what the TPM chip on an Intel Mac do? Just because Apple say its there for 1 specific purpose, doesnt make it true. At very least, the mere presence of the chip enables any trusted company of Apple to dictate your computers behaviour. You have to stop being so naive, because this is the reality. Not in 15 years. Not in 5, but TODAY!

It sounds to me like you need to read more about "Trusted Computing" before accepting this move so easily.

SeaFox · Jul 30, 2005

Loke said:
It sickens me to see hundreds of posts like "Buuhuu what a crap update", while this thread - about 1000 times more important - has 3 replies.

MS has had to take all sort of **** from all over the web for its flirting with TCPA. Steve Jobs on the other hand has done something Microsoft could only dream of. By snapping his finger and moving the entire line to Intel CPUs, he also got the benefit of integrating TCPA in EVERY Mac sold. And what do you - the customers - say? "Its needed to protect OSX from running on regular x86 hardware" Talk about SJ Distortion Field!!!!

This is a joke. You should all be *very* upset and angry over this move, and while youre at it get a PowerPC Mac without TCPA while you can. The rest of you: prepare to be ass****ed - because thats what TCPA does in the end.

All I have to say to the above is... DUH.

I was talking about this turn of events when the changeover was first announced. But everyone was all "oooooo, now we can get 3.2GHz", "no more megahertz myths!", and "Oh, no! The dual 2.7 Ghz G5 I just bought is now obsolete!" that they didn't pay any attention to it. The iPod/iTunes part of Apple truly has become the more important and this is evidence of it. One of the reasons I like Macs is because there isn't all this DRM crap going on. I'm positive one of the reasons for the switch is Apple wants to sell movies and the MPAA said they wouldn't play ball unless Apple agreed to take on a TCPA processor. You watch. When Apple makes it's intro to selling movies the system requirements will in some way exclude any Mac that doesn't have an Intel processor.

alex_ant · Jul 30, 2005

What's more is that if TCPA detects you trying to do something criminal, like for example, saving a file, it sends your home address to a secret government enforcement agency that immediately dispatches a squad of agents brandishing submachine guns to bust down your door, steal your computers and lock you up in prison like Kevin Mitnick. TCPA, in effect, turns the entire world into an Orwellian fascist police state under the domination of a Big Brother-like figure (who happens to be Bill Gates).

All of this is true, I read it on slashdot.

Applespider · Jul 30, 2005

OK - I don't want any major corporation able to track *what* I'm doing on my computer, what sites I've visiting etc and my only concerns about letting a mild form of control over my computer is what it might lead to in the future and purely on the civil liberties aspects.

On the other hand, I don't pirate music/movies/software so as it currently stands, it's very unlikely to hamper anything I do on my Mac or the vast majority of consumers so I doubt you'll see a massive uprising unless you tell people it's going to spy on what they're buying/doing. Even then, if people are told it will make stuff cheaper, they won't care. Look at all the people happy to share their shopping habits using loyalty cards just to get a £1 off their bananas. It's the geeks it will hamper who won't be able to tweak systems or install other OSs.

cubist · Jul 30, 2005

I expect that people with a motivation will be able to bypass the rosetta check. But Loke is right, TCPA is a very bad thing. You can be as paranoid as you want to be on this issue, because "Trusted Computing" is a big corporate power grab. The "trusted" in the phrase means do the corporations trust YOU, not whether you trust them - you, the owner of the computer, have no say in that.

Applespider's comment is basically that people who have nothing to hide should have no problem with it. It's thinking like that that leads a sheeplike people to allow the FBI to tap their phones without a court order, to allow the police to search their homes at will...

But Applespider is right, most people will not care, until it is too late. Back to sleep, Mac users. Dream of your shiny new computers, and the deal with the devil that got you past 3GHz.

pubwvj · Jul 30, 2005

pdpfilms said:
Ok, so i may be missing something huge here, but why on earth is this TCPA going to -as Loke so eliquently said- ass**** us? Isn't it just a system to ensure that OSX stays attached to Apple hardware? Isn't that how it's always been? Isn't that how we WANT it to be?

It's a baahhhddd idea as my sheep would say.
It isn't the binding of the OS to the hardware
that scares me so much as the corporate control
over what I can do in my home with my computer.
I don't pirate software or contentent. That is not the
issue. The issue is the corporations what to take away
our rights to use things. If they have their way we will
have to pay again and again every time we want to watch
a movie, play a song, read a book or use a program.
Baahhhddd, baahhhddd!

Loke · Jul 30, 2005

Apart from the obvious ironic - although completely clueless - comments by some, Im glad to see at least a few of you realize just how bad this situation is.

You might think you can find out what nasty things a treacherous computing application does, study how painful they are, and decide whether to accept them. It would be short-sighted and foolish to accept, but the point is that the deal you think you are making won't stand still. Once you come to depend on using the program, you are hooked and they know it; then they can change the deal. -Richard Stallman

alex_ant · Jul 30, 2005

Ah yes...

Loke said:
You might think you can find out what nasty things a treacherous computing application does, study how painful they are, and decide whether to accept them. It would be short-sighted and foolish to accept, but the point is that the deal you think you are making won't stand still. Once you come to depend on using the program, you are hooked and they know it; then they can change the deal. -Richard Stallman

All hail the great Richard Stallman!

iMeowbot · Jul 30, 2005

Come on everybody, sing along! Join us now and share the software, you'll be free hackers, you'll be freeyeeyeeyee!

SeaFox · Jul 30, 2005

alex_ant said:
What's more is that if TCPA detects you trying to do something criminal, like for example, saving a file, it sends your home address to a secret government enforcement agency that immediately dispatches a squad of agents brandishing submachine guns to bust down your door, steal your computers and lock you up in prison like Kevin Mitnick. TCPA, in effect, turns the entire world into an Orwellian fascist police state under the domination of a Big Brother-like figure (who happens to be Bill Gates).

All of this is true, I read it on slashdot.

Make jokes all you want. With the Patriot Act and stupid legislation the MPAA/RIAA gets pushed through Congress I can see things becoming just that silly one day.

Hey, everyone, if you're looking for something fun to do, search through the forums for "Palladium" or "TCPA" and read some of the past discussions we've had on this. I like the threads where people express their happiness they are safe from it all because they are using a Mac, little did they know.

I also came across this little post I wrote some time ago. While alex_ant's mock above may look like an exaggeration of the issue, what he discribes is technically possible.

iMeowbot · Jul 30, 2005

If computer or software producers ever become that onerous with their cryptotoys, people do still have the option of not using those computers. There are still non-digital ways to exchange information! That's what will limit the really silly uses, they're ultimately pointless.

Chaszmyr · Jul 30, 2005

I think you all need to stop worrying about what TCPA can do, and think more about what it actually will do. Apple isn't in a position that it can afford to piss very many people off, so I consider it pretty unlikely that Apple will abuse the technology.

alex_ant · Jul 30, 2005

Chaszmyr said:
I think you all need to stop worrying about what TCPA can do, and think more about what it actually will do.

Well said. The Queen of England still technically rules over England. She could override Parliament... she could declare martial law... she could raise income tax to 90%... she could a-bomb London in a massive homicide/suicide strike! But then we have to remember that she only WOULD do this in a few total nutjobs' conspiratorial fantasies. The Queen of England is not gonna a-bomb her own country because she's too busy sitting on the crapper and having a royal bowel movement, OK?

People get so caught up in how their "rights" will be affected and how DRM screws the consumer. Well, as it is at the moment, the consumer is the one doing the screwing, with mass unstoppable filesharing the likes of which society has never seen threatening to seriously undermine a large percentage of quality product, such as for example, the very operating system I'm typing this in (Mac OS X), or for example, the excellent movie I watched earlier that cost $40 million to make. How about, instead of painting the media and computer megacorporations as satan incarnate, we step back and think about innovative and practical ways in which we can find a balace between everyone's rights - instead of pulling this 1984, Braveheart **** and crying tyranny and declaring war on whatever.

Rocksaurus · Jul 30, 2005

alex_ant said:
Well said. The Queen of England still technically rules over England. She could override Parliament... she could declare martial law... she could raise income tax to 90%... she could a-bomb London in a massive homicide/suicide strike! But then we have to remember that she only WOULD do this in a few total nutjobs' conspiratorial fantasies. The Queen of England is not gonna a-bomb her own country because she's too busy sitting on the crapper and having a royal bowel movement, OK?

People get so caught up in how their "rights" will be affected and how DRM screws the consumer. Well, as it is at the moment, the consumer is the one doing the screwing, with mass unstoppable filesharing the likes of which society has never seen threatening to seriously undermine a large percentage of quality product, such as for example, the very operating system I'm typing this in (Mac OS X), or for example, the excellent movie I watched earlier that cost $40 million to make. How about, instead of painting the media and computer megacorporations as satan incarnate, we step back and think about innovative and practical ways in which we can find a balace between everyone's rights - instead of pulling this 1984, Braveheart **** and crying tyranny and declaring war on whatever.

You make a few good points, but people worrying about losing their rights is what keeps the rights around. Since only the future can answer our questions arguing about this stuff is kind of pointless, but the conspiracy theorists do make a valid point regardless of how all this pans out - what this technology is capable of doing and the fact that it requires a certain level of trust in large corporations provides a legitimate reason to be wary. Denying that is just silly.

me_94501 · Jul 30, 2005

Chaszmyr said:
I think you all need to stop worrying about what TCPA can do, and think more about what it actually will do. Apple isn't in a position that it can afford to piss very many people off, so I consider it pretty unlikely that Apple will abuse the technology.

Exactly.

This is something worth monitoring, but IMHO isn't worth getting tied up in knots over yet.

And do any of us actually know Apple is going to get into movies? We all "knew" three months ago that a switch to Intel was never going to happen.

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