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Old Jun 25, 2012, 08:44 PM   #26
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I would like to start drafting the rules since it seems no one objects to my being GG next. Can someone link me to a good set of rules to start from? Preferably from a recent - successful - complex game. I want to get a good idea of some of the new rules that have been introduced recently.
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Old Jun 25, 2012, 08:48 PM   #27
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I would like to start drafting the rules since it seems no one objects to my being GG next. Can someone link me to a good set of rules to start from? Preferably from a recent - successful - complex game. I want to get a good idea of some of the new rules that have been introduced recently.
There hasn't been a complex game per say... all of them have been simple with wolf only enemies.
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Old Jun 25, 2012, 09:09 PM   #28
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There hasn't been a complex game per say... all of them have been simple with wolf only enemies.
Mscrivs game was complicated to say the least.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1329037
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Old Jun 25, 2012, 09:09 PM   #29
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I'd like to propose a new villager role...

Master of Whispers: The Master of Whispers can PM the GG each night to request to know the target of a special or the wolves. For example, the MoW might request to see who the seer scanned. The GG would then respond only with the name of the player that was scanned by the seer that night. If the seer is dead or did not scan the GG would say only that there was no scan that night. Only regular night actions would be eligible for reveal (e.g. seer scans, hunter protection, ww dinner, etc) NOT one-time use items (e.g. infections, resurrections, insta-kills, etc).

Thoughts?

-EDIT-

I've also been trying to come up with a way to make the werewolves more interesting...

The Carrier: The Carrier starts out the game as a normal villager but turns into a wolf if the pack tries to eat him/her. Only the game god knows who the carrier is. The carrier is still vulnerable to infection and, if targeted, will be infected as normal and will count as a used infection. The seer can scan the carrier and the hunter can protect the carrier just like any other player.

I'm drafting the rules for the next game and planning to include these two new roles unless there is strong objection or major flaws revealed.
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Old Jun 25, 2012, 09:47 PM   #30
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For what it's worth, abijnk and I hashed these roles out together so hopefully they are vetted for potential flaws. The MoW seems to be a great role for a villager who likes to theorize and play with what-ifs. The carrier is a great way to give the wolves another infection, but not really (I like to think it of it as a half infection because lynch/eaten death odds are 50/50).. It also offers an interesting dynamic for the seer should they scan him/her.
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Old Jun 25, 2012, 10:19 PM   #31
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How will they scan? Ie, as a wolf/villager and when?
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Old Jun 25, 2012, 10:21 PM   #32
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In reading through people's post, including the new roles mentioned, I'd like to say that I really think the complex version of the game that I ran covers all of these bases. People get so down on "normal" villagers and say it's boring without having a special ability. The version of the game I ran gave everyone a chance at better figuring out things. I thought the beta run was pretty good, but honestly people didn't seem to fully grasp the power of the tweaks I made.

The new whisper character that Abi and Chris are proposing is similar, but in my version everyone knows what happens to their character. If a player is scanned by the seer, they know it and can reveal that if they want. If a player is protected by the hunter, they know it and can reveal it if they want. If an attack fails because of protection the Guard and wolves both know it and it sets up a tense situation. The Guard can tell the village he/she was successful and the resulting information helps with strategy and deduction. If you don't get it from my brief explanation here then go back and read through the game thread of the complex game I ran.

In my opinion the key flaw in these games is that not everyone talks or participates enough. Because of this people think we need more special abilities or more stuff be it items, dead players, etc. etc.. When we just keep adding things it makes the game more and more random and less and less strategic. What's the point in playing an excellent game just to have it jacked up by some random item or action. Additionally, more specials doesn't translate into more vocal players or mean there will be more information out there. It just makes things more complicated and calls for more rules to straighten it all out. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think random is fun at all. I think strategy, teamwork, and skill are fun and they can be extremely fun when players work together to pull it off.

Take Jav's game just played as an example. Sythas and Moyank executed an incredible strategy with brilliant maneuvers. They should be applauded for that and in my opinion take some pride in how well they did. This game is about who you trust and the moves you make. I would be disappointed to see us move in a direction that takes us away from that.

The point is to set up a scenario where increasing amounts of information are out there and the real possibility of putting all the pieces together exists. As we play it now there is no sense of urgency on the wolves because all they have to fear is the hunter and seer. When increasing amounts of information are out there it makes the game more balanced and more strategic on both sides. Your moves have actual consequences and you need to plan for that appropriately.

I've got plenty more to say, but this post is long enough as it is now. I'll get to the other stuff after some of you respond to this.
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Old Jun 25, 2012, 10:52 PM   #33
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In reading through people's post, including the new roles mentioned, I'd like to say that I really think the complex version of the game that I ran covers all of these bases. People get so down on "normal" villagers and say it's boring without having a special ability. The version of the game I ran gave everyone a chance at better figuring out things. I thought the beta run was pretty good, but honestly people didn't seem to fully grasp the power of the tweaks I made.

The new whisper character that Abi and Chris are proposing is similar, but in my version everyone knows what happens to their character. If a player is scanned by the seer, they know it and can reveal that if they want. If a player is protected by the hunter, they know it and can reveal it if they want. If an attack fails because of protection the Guard and wolves both know it and it sets up a tense situation. The Guard can tell the village he/she was successful and the resulting information helps with strategy and deduction. If you don't get it from my brief explanation here then go back and read through the game thread of the complex game I ran.

In my opinion the key flaw in these games is that not everyone talks or participates enough. Because of this people think we need more special abilities or more stuff be it items, dead players, etc. etc.. When we just keep adding things it makes the game more and more random and less and less strategic. What's the point in playing an excellent game just to have it jacked up by some random item or action. Additionally, more specials doesn't translate into more vocal players or mean there will be more information out there. It just makes things more complicated and calls for more rules to straighten it all out. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think random is fun at all. I think strategy, teamwork, and skill are fun and they can be extremely fun when players work together to pull it off.

Take Jav's game just played as an example. Sythas and Moyank executed an incredible strategy with brilliant maneuvers. They should be applauded for that and in my opinion take some pride in how well they did. This game is about who you trust and the moves you make. I would be disappointed to see us move in a direction that takes us away from that.

The point is to set up a scenario where increasing amounts of information are out there and the real possibility of putting all the pieces together exists. As we play it now there is no sense of urgency on the wolves because all they have to fear is the hunter and seer. When increasing amounts of information are out there it makes the game more balanced and more strategic on both sides. You moves have actual consequences and you need to plan for that appropriately.

I've got plenty more to say, but this post is long enough as it is now. I'll get to the other stuff after some of you respond to this.
I really like your approach, but to be completely honest I think it would be too time consuming for me, that's why I suggested a couple tweaks to try and change things up a little without getting really complicated. In reality I have a job with extremely limited internet access and a 3 month old baby, so I have to be fair to myself and the players in finding a balance of intrigue and time consumption.
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Old Jun 25, 2012, 11:03 PM   #34
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A true complex game is only recommended when we can have many players and the game god can keep up. I barely could keep up.

Adding more roles just complicates things even more as mscriv stated. True, more people get to have roles rather than just being boring villagers. However, being a villager can be a great thing.

My finest games participations have been when I have been a regular villager. Knowing that the village has a timer and that your life may be on the line is a high enough motivation to find the wolves. Wolves? They have not much to worry but being scanned. That however, can be an either quick or painfully slow thing as witnessed by my game.

Bare in mind, my game was not complex. I consider it simple as the basic roles were there. I just added the Mystic, Agency and Alpha/Kami roles because having 20 players for a simple game would have been brutally boring. No Moyank24 combination.

Yet as many of you can see, a simple role combination Agency/Hunter/Infected yielded such great game. Strategy is always key and I feel people have lost focus on that. I know many people hate it, but it still happens. That bandwagon of votes... it happens and the village always gets screwed because of it.
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Old Jun 25, 2012, 11:05 PM   #35
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I really like your approach, but to be completely honest I think it would be too time consuming for me, that's why I suggested a couple tweaks to try and change things up a little without getting really complicated. In reality I have a job with extremely limited internet access and a 3 month old baby, so I have to be fair to myself and the players in finding a balance of intrigue and time consumption.
The biggest time requirement of my game was doing all the narratives. Some were done in advance and that made it easier, I had a solid concept/theme and that also made it easier. However, it's entirely possible to use the "revelation" concept of people knowing what happens to them without having to do the behind the scenes narratives. It would work basically the way current games run now. Players would get a PM simply stating "X happened to you during the night." or "nothing of note happened to you during the night."

I totally don't expect anyone to put in all the effort I made, heck I ended up with a 50 page word file at the end of the game. I did not know going in it would require that much, but as things progressed it took on a life of its own. Plus, I'm a perfectionist and once I start something I like to finish it. I will eventually do another full narrative game again, but at present I'm busy and don't have the time to do that much writing. Additionally, I want to nail down another solid story concept. But, as I said above, even without the extensive storytelling, I do think it would be possible to incorporate the "know what happens to your character" style without too much extra effort.
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Old Jun 25, 2012, 11:13 PM   #36
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The biggest time requirement of my game was doing all the narratives. Some were done in advance and that made it easier, I had a solid concept/theme and that also made it easier. However, it's entirely possible to use the "revelation" concept of people knowing what happens to them without having to do the behind the scenes narratives. It would work basically the way current games run now. Players would get a PM simply stating "X happened to you during the night." or "nothing of note happened to you during the night."

I totally don't expect anyone to put in all the effort I made, heck I ended up with a 50 page word file at the end of the game. I did not know going in it would require that much, but as things progressed it took on a life of its own. Plus, I'm a perfectionist and once I start something I like to finish it. I will eventually do another full narrative game again, but at present I'm busy and don't have the time to do that much writing. Additionally, I want to nail down another solid story concept. But, as I said above, even without the extensive storytelling, I do think it would be possible to incorporate the "know what happens to your character" style without too much extra effort.

I could never do the pre-write everything. I am always writing from scratch or using from another place when I can't make it on time.

Narratives are the biggest time consumption as a GG. I do tend to have some pre-written and just fill out names. But I learned the hard way, it is not good if the Kami wolf is still alive as everything will change. Twice has it happened to me that the Kami wolf changed what I had prewritten.
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Old Jun 25, 2012, 11:35 PM   #37
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whichever direction you go, make sure you have 1/3 to 1/2 of the players as plain villagers
that's why i was proposing items. i think they add a level of strategy and allow more involvement without multiplying the roles.
then of course the number of special must be connected to that of players
as far other roles, i think separate guard and hunter works much better ( also tematically) then a uber-hunter.
the bartender was a fun and nuanced role, i recommend it.
the detection agency is a bit too much in favour of the villas
double infection is way too much for the WW
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Old Jun 25, 2012, 11:41 PM   #38
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I can handle who is doing what, even when we had the new roles, and could do that well. I can't write. Maybe I'll take QoS up on her offer to "ghost write" sometime.
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 12:30 AM   #39
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I could never do the pre-write everything. I am always writing from scratch or using from another place when I can't make it on time.

Narratives are the biggest time consumption as a GG. I do tend to have some pre-written and just fill out names. But I learned the hard way, it is not good if the Kami wolf is still alive as everything will change. Twice has it happened to me that the Kami wolf changed what I had prewritten.
The key to pre-writing is having a solid unifying theme for your game. My theme was obviously a return to gothic horror werewolves and vampires centered around a brother and sister caught in the middle of it all. When you play with night time narratives it's easier to pre-write some of those events. For example, you know there has to be a simple narrative for each night involving those characters who don't have anything happen to them. The entire prelude to my story was pre-written. It's easy to pre-write the hunter tracking a villager, the guard protecting a villager, or the WW's or vamps killing a villager. Basically, the simple stories that don't involve twists can be written ahead of time.

I grew up playing role playing games like AD&D, Vampire the Masquerade, Magic the Gathering, etc. etc.. So, to me the most crucial aspect of gaming is creating an atmosphere that is unified and that players can get lost in. I want the experience to be believable and feel authentic.
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 08:57 AM   #40
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Master of Whispers
Intriguing.

Quote:
The Carrier
Interesting.

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Originally Posted by mscriv View Post
I'd like to say that I really think the complex version of the game that I ran covers all of these bases.
It does, but in a different way. Your revelation-based game (which was AWESOME, btw) gave out that information, but in the form of one little tidbit to each player. Abbie's proposal, as I see it, gives all that information to one player. I don't know that one is better than the other, but they are a little different.

I'm sure it's quite a bit of work on the GG to write narratives (one of the reasons I haven't offered to host), but it sure makes the game much more fun and interesting than simply logging into MR and seeing, "So-and-so is dead. Deadline is tomorrow. Narrative forthcoming." Yes, I know I'm a moocher.
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 09:02 AM   #41
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I like Don't Panics idea of items. What about an item that grants immunity that gets passed form villager to villager? Like a Magic Wand type of thing.... And then it's up to the villager to send a Pm as to who to pass it on to.

Maybe that's a dumb idea...


I think post-death posting adds to the fun of the games. In games where this is enforced I don't check back in once I'm dead.
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 09:12 AM   #42
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 10:07 AM   #43
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It does, but in a different way. Your revelation-based game (which was AWESOME, btw) gave out that information, but in the form of one little tidbit to each player. Abbie's proposal, as I see it, gives all that information to one player. I don't know that one is better than the other, but they are a little different.
I agree completely. The only advantage I see to the "revelation" style is that information is constant regardless of whether that special is alive or dead. With the Whisperer role, once that character dies the information dies too.


Just curious, as far as the after death posting goes, it seems that those in favor of continuing to allow it are people who have never been a storyteller for a game. I wonder if that plays into people's perspective? For those saying they lose interest and don't check in after death (unless dead posts are allowed) are you for real? You aren't curious at all about how the game is progressing or following along to see who makes what moves? Seriously, the only reason you might check up on things is to see what the players that are already out of the game might be saying? Honestly, that befuddles me somewhat.
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 10:16 AM   #44
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Speaking from storyteller perspective it can get to you because some drama occurs. I feel it eventually will disrupt the game flow. Also, as a player, I don't want my fellow players who are alive to be distracted.
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 10:25 AM   #45
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I agree completely. The only advantage I see to the "revelation" style is that information is constant regardless of whether that special is alive or dead. With the Whisperer role, once that character dies the information dies too.


Just curious, as far as the after death posting goes, it seems that those in favor of continuing to allow it are people who have never been a storyteller for a game. I wonder if that plays into people's perspective? For those saying they lose interest and don't check in after death (unless dead posts are allowed) are you for real? You aren't curious at all about how the game is progressing or following along to see who makes what moves? Seriously, the only reason you might check up on things is to see what the players that are already out of the game might be saying? Honestly, that befuddles me somewhat.
I've run a game, granted only one, and I'm still in favor of it. This is probably because I'm a prolific poster - both alive and dead. Honestly how many times before MBP started playing was this really a problem? I know the reasons for putting the "Jav" rule into effect, but I've been playing a long time and I can only remember a few - and one of those was a special revealing a scan before the night ended - only to find out he had been killed during the same night.

We are all pretty good with regulating ourselves, and I don't think we should be punished for the bad judgement of 1 player who isn't even with us anymore.

If some sort of ban was put into effect, I probably wouldn't check back with the game as often as I do now post-death.
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 11:13 AM   #46
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I would like to start drafting the rules since it seems no one objects to my being GG next. Can someone link me to a good set of rules to start from? Preferably from a recent - successful - complex game. I want to get a good idea of some of the new rules that have been introduced recently.
Since you are running one for the first time (?), my recommendation is that you do a simple game using existing rules. In any case, you should probably start a new game signup thread so you can gauge the interest and see how many roles you need filled.
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 11:19 AM   #47
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For those saying they lose interest and don't check in after death (unless dead posts are allowed) are you for real? You aren't curious at all about how the game is progressing or following along to see who makes what moves? Seriously, the only reason you might check up on things is to see what the players that are already out of the game might be saying? Honestly, that befuddles me somewhat.
I won't speak for others, but yes, I'm for real. My curiosity would hover around that level where I might check in from time to time and read the most recent post, but not follow along with all the posts that were made in the meantime.

And you're missing my point - it's not only about reading what other dead characters have to say, it's also being able to interact when your character is dead.

Think about it - even in a sport, a player who comes out of the game can still sit on the bench and cheer for his team. Banning "after death" posts sends us to the locker room. There's nothing interesting in that.
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 11:31 AM   #48
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I've run two games and I'm in favor of the dead being allowed to post. I think as long as they aren't posting so much (which can be determined by the GG) then they should be allowed.
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 11:57 AM   #49
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I've run one game and yes, exactly what Tomorrow said, silencing dead players essentially removes them from the game completely. I certainly still read the thread (at least the ending), but I am less likely to follow it as thoroughly.

It's also lame since the same players seem to die early repeatedly.

Is there any way we can concurrently have a discussion/brainstorm about participation? Almost every game, people sign up that don't really participate, and it just less fun.
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 12:02 PM   #50
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I've run a game, granted only one, and I'm still in favor of it. This is probably because I'm a prolific poster - both alive and dead. Honestly how many times before MBP started playing was this really a problem? I know the reasons for putting the "Jav" rule into effect, but I've been playing a long time and I can only remember a few - and one of those was a special revealing a scan before the night ended - only to find out he had been killed during the same night.

We are all pretty good with regulating ourselves, and I don't think we should be punished for the bad judgement of 1 player who isn't even with us anymore.

If some sort of ban was put into effect, I probably wouldn't check back with the game as often as I do now post-death.
Yes, "we" are. However, I made a comment about MBPi5's posting, and I have to admit some people probably thought I was being an a$$ (maybe even you).

BTW, I only made that comment after he had 25 posts out of the latest 40-50 posts. I simply got tired of having all of his dead posts that had absolutely nothing to do with the game (it seems these have since been deleted, so there's no way to see what I mean). Many times, if he didn't get a response he would make another post several minutes later, and double and even triple post. He seemed to do this every game, as well, and I had tried to ignore it, but it wasn't seeming to get any better. So, as long as if we have another MBPi5-type poster in a future game and something is done about it, I have no problem with after dead posts.

Sorry for harping on this, but I really felt he made the game annoying. So much so that I wasn't going to play any more with him in a game, since I found myself tempted to do something that might get me a TO. If I'm in the minority about this, just let me know, and in the future I'll keep my mouth shut.
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