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Old Jul 30, 2012, 07:34 PM   #151
Sythas
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I'm with Mscriv on that, the night order can be use at the advantage of the werewolf, and it's normal the special can't share the information with the villagers before the sun is up, because he don't know if he'll be dead or not and everyone is suppose to be asleep. The werewolf stay up during the night.

So in my opinion the WW can way to have the result of an infected special that's happening before them in the night order... but the nights will be longer and they could miss the deadline...
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 07:40 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by mscriv View Post
Chris's game just finished up and there is some debate about how infected specials should be handled with regards to revealing the results of their special abilities.

It's just my opinion, but I would agree with how Chris handled the Seer infection. If a special is infected then his/her special ability is now used in the pursuit of being one of the baddies. It was always my understanding that turn order was established to avoid confusion regarding things like protections and other special abilities that could get confusing. For example, does protection take effect before someone can be killed or does the Seer get the results if he and the wolves target the same player during the night?

Specials not being able to reveal the results of their evening activities to the village at large during the night was established to prevent players from giving away information even though they were technically dead (that night's kill). An infected special is not in danger of being killed by the wolfpack and thus there is no reason he/she shouldn't be able to share the findings with the other baddies. That's one of the biggest advantages of infecting a special player.
Theoretically, though, a special would be able to reveal his scan before he "technically" dies - if that is the order. It's a slippery slope, I think.

What would happen if the seer gets his/her instructions in right away and the wolves wait until the last minute to decide a kill? What would stop a Game God from handing the results right away and the Seer sharing with the village before the night ended?

Of course, I'm just thinking out loud here.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 07:46 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
Theoretically, though, a special would be able to reveal his scan before he "technically" dies - if that is the order. It's a slippery slope, I think.

What would happen if the seer gets his/her instructions in right away and the wolves wait until the last minute to decide a kill? What would stop a Game God from handing the results right away and the Seer sharing with the village before the night ended?

Of course, I'm just thinking out loud here.
You're thinking out loud actually happened in the past and it caused a lot of controversy when a special outed their findings when they should have been dead. It was after this occurred that we started playing with the rule that no special can reveal their findings to the players at large until the morning narration. That way it was ensured that dead players could "tell no tales".

The night time order has nothing to do with players revealing information during the night. It's intended purpose is to clarify the order of special actions that could get confusing during the night. For example the Seer's scan can't miss because the player is killed by the wolves first. The scan will still happen and the results will be available even though the player was killed that night.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 08:02 PM   #154
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You're thinking out loud actually happened in the past and it caused a lot of controversy when a special outed their findings when they should have been dead. It was after this occurred that we started playing with the rule that no special can reveal their findings to the players at large until the morning narration. That way it was ensured that dead players could "tell no tales".

The night time order has nothing to do with players revealing information during the night. It's intended purpose is to clarify the order of special actions that could get confusing during the night. For example the Seer's scan can't miss because the player is killed by the wolves first. The scan will still happen and the results will be available even though the player was killed that night.
I remember. I was the one outed as a wolf....That was a wee bit painful.
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Old Jul 31, 2012, 05:12 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by mscriv View Post
Chris's game just finished up and there is some debate about how infected specials should be handled with regards to revealing the results of their special abilities.

It's just my opinion, but I would agree with how Chris handled the Seer infection. If a special is infected then his/her special ability is now used in the pursuit of being one of the baddies. It was always my understanding that turn order was established to avoid confusion regarding things like protections and other special abilities that could get confusing. For example, does protection take effect before someone can be killed or does the Seer get the results if he and the wolves target the same player during the night?

Specials not being able to reveal the results of their evening activities to the village at large during the night was established to prevent players from giving away information even though they were technically dead (that night's kill). An infected special is not in danger of being killed by the wolfpack and thus there is no reason he/she shouldn't be able to share the findings with the other baddies. That's one of the biggest advantages of infecting a special player.
As a newbie, this is the way I interpreted the rules. Then my only prior experience of this sort of game was from the board game where everyone closes their eyes at night and the specials are asked to open them one by one and indicate their targets. So with Seer scans happening before wolf kills and an infected Seer its pretty obvious the wolves would have that knowledge when deciding their kill. Whereas the Seer couldn't reveal that information until morning because everyone else is asleep (eyes closed)

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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
Theoretically, though, a special would be able to reveal his scan before he "technically" dies - if that is the order. It's a slippery slope, I think.

What would happen if the seer gets his/her instructions in right away and the wolves wait until the last minute to decide a kill? What would stop a Game God from handing the results right away and the Seer sharing with the village before the night ended?

Of course, I'm just thinking out loud here.
This gets tricky as its possible for players (especially the Seer) to influence the game if he has the scan results without revealing them. i.e. what if the Seer says I'm going to vote to lynch Moyank tomorrow during nighttime (like I've seen a number of players do) and then dies. Technically he hasn't revealed the scan but he's still influenced the following days votes even though he died.
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Old Jul 31, 2012, 06:30 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by mscriv View Post
Chris's game just finished up and there is some debate about how infected specials should be handled with regards to revealing the results of their special abilities.

It's just my opinion, but I would agree with how Chris handled the Seer infection. If a special is infected then his/her special ability is now used in the pursuit of being one of the baddies. It was always my understanding that turn order was established to avoid confusion regarding things like protections and other special abilities that could get confusing. For example, does protection take effect before someone can be killed or does the Seer get the results if he and the wolves target the same player during the night?

Specials not being able to reveal the results of their evening activities to the village at large during the night was established to prevent players from giving away information even though they were technically dead (that night's kill). An infected special is not in danger of being killed by the wolfpack and thus there is no reason he/she shouldn't be able to share the findings with the other baddies. That's one of the biggest advantages of infecting a special player.
Actually, I'm in agreement with mscriv on this interpretation, and thus, with chris's take on this. Once a special is recruited by the WWs, his or her skills and talents are at the disposal of the WW team; hence, for a WW team to be able to use the advantage an infected Seer gives them, it makes sense for them to be able to use the information gleaned from a scan.

It is not as though the information is announced to the rest of the MRville world, (until the following day, if ever), rather, it is simply shared with one's own 'team', whether DA or WW. Indeed, given time differences - and the occasional time delays in posting narratives, it can take a very long time to be able to act upon information which one has learned.
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Old Jul 31, 2012, 11:39 AM   #157
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Actually, I'm in agreement with mscriv on this interpretation, and thus, with chris's take on this. Once a special is recruited by the WWs, his or her skills and talents are at the disposal of the WW team; hence, for a WW team to be able to use the advantage an infected Seer gives them, it makes sense for them to be able to use the information gleaned from a scan.

It is not as though the information is announced to the rest of the MRville world, (until the following day, if ever), rather, it is simply shared with one's own 'team', whether DA or WW. Indeed, given time differences - and the occasional time delays in posting narratives, it can take a very long time to be able to act upon information which one has learned.
we all agree on the fact that an infected special can share the info with the wolves, nobody is questioning that.

the question was rather 'when', and in fact is not even precisely that (it's kind of impossible to ignore informations once you have them) the main question here is:

- When should be specials informed of the result of their scans?

there are multiple ways to deal with it as a GG:

- at the discretion of the GG
- in the order the PM are sent
- following the turn order
- at morning

i would argue the simplest and fairest way is to have all of them in the morning.

the PMs are sent in various order during the 'night' depending on when the people are on line, where they live, what happened in the thread and so on.
but for the purpose of the game, the order the PMs are sent in at night doesn't count. it is like they come in all at the same time at the last second of the night. The turn order is then used to sort them out.
when all the PM are in, and the order of event is sorted, the GG posts the morning narration and at the same times informs each special, including the wolves, of the results of their night activities.


this way there is no discrepancy in treatment, no double-standards, no ambiguity in the rules, and no risk of someone to talk about things they are not supposed to be talking about. It is also potentially faster, because there are no delays in the wolves for example waiting on the result of the scan of who they infected to then discuss and decide who to target.
Finally, it is simpler for the GG and it minimizes their influencing the game.


I don't like the fact that results are given out at night before the morning deadline, because it can put whoever received the info in an awkward position as it is unclear how they have to deal with the acquired info. Anything they post is in some way affected by the newly acquired info, so the 'right' move would be not post at all, but that also is not fair.

In my opinion, if the special who is infected can share the info with the other wolves, than all specials should be able to use the information they have as they see fit.
Only when the narration comes out that they have been killed, they are in fact dead. Basically it is the same standard we use for the lynching: you can say whatever you want until you are dead. If you have a non-lock majority, you can still post until the deadline, even if you are basically a dead-man walking. and it's fair because there could be last minute changes. Similarly, the wolves could change their mind at the last minute
Thematically, it just means that the actual killing occurs at the deadline, so there are in fact no contradictions of sorts.

i understand the parallel with the board game, but I don't think they apply, as the mechanics are quite different. there they are constrained by the players being physically around one table where they could see each other, here we aren't. there there is no speaking in the night phase (sleeping), here we allow posting during the night, so the players are in fact awake.


It is also not true that the difference is the possibility of being killed, firestar could have been killed by melrose at night, but if he already had shared the info with the wolves than the situation would be identical than a good special telling everyone the result the night they are being killed.

the solution seems simple to me: give the results out in the morning, when the narration is posted.
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Old Jul 31, 2012, 11:42 AM   #158
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If a seer is invited into the NW / Detective Agency - can they share the results of the scan before the night is over? And they are possibly killed? I'm not sure what the rule is on that.
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Old Jul 31, 2012, 11:48 AM   #159
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If a seer is invited into the NW / Detective Agency - can they share the results of the scan before the night is over? And they are possibly killed? I'm not sure what the rule is on that.
it is the same as putting it on the thread.

my position is that the rule should be the same in any situation: if the seer can share the info, they can do it always, if they cannot, they can never do it (during the night).

of course if they only get the info at the end of the night, then the point is completely moot.
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Old Jul 31, 2012, 11:59 AM   #160
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I think we should run a game were all the scan results are sent right before the morning naration, and see which we prefer. If I remember correctly its been a while since its been done that way, probably not since Ravenvii ran a game?
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Old Jul 31, 2012, 12:03 PM   #161
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it is the same as putting it on the thread.

my position is that the rule should be the same in any situation: if the seer can share the info, they can do it always, if they cannot, they can never do it (during the night).

of course if they only get the info at the end of the night, then the point is completely moot.
I kind of agree. Why should the wolves get that advantage - unless the scenario I stated above is allowed as well. Even if the seer dies at night, they should be able share the results of the scan with their teammates in the DA/NW (I know this is just one scenario), at the very least.
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Old Jul 31, 2012, 12:25 PM   #162
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My vision of the WW game is to try and make it as reaslistic as possible. That is why I enjoy using the "revelation" style when I assume the role of storyteller.

First, player knowledge and the sharing of player knowledge with everyone else in the game are two different things. This becomes especially important when it comes to players who have the ability to PM each other throughout the game (WW's, Vamp's, NW). From my perspective, it is not outside of the bounds of the rules, nor realistically if you think of the game in real life, to believe that these groups will share knowledge amongst themselves and use that knowledge to make decisions, even at night.

That being said, we must allow for the possibility of deception. Take for instance the example that Moyank brings up (a Seer recruited by the NW). The results of the scan will be revealed to Seer only and it is left up to the Seer to decide when to disclose that information to his/her NW partners (during the current night or in the morning). Thus, deception is still possible.

I disagree with DP that the central issue involved here is:

Quote:
When should be specials informed of the result of their scans?
The entire motivation for holding the results of the scans until morning is predicated on the fear that someone will violate the standard of revealing information before they are allowed. I've been playing these games for a long time and, generally, there is much less game chatter during the evening portion of the game. There is often non-game related discourse or the occasional "I'm afraid I might not survive the night so I'm gonna post X theory in case I die" statement. However, there is always the ethical expectation that players will not reveal "behind the scenes" information until they are allowed to do so. I think if we are afraid that this ethical expectation will be violated then we should just outlaw game related posts for everyone during the night time. In the beginning the game sort of functioned this way. Ravenvii would announce that it was night and pretty much all was quiet until the morning narrative. I guess I'm just willing to trust that people will obey the rules.

Another point on this issue is the perceived need to "hurry the game along" by making night time as quick as possible. As a storyteller I think we have deadlines for a reason. The night time deadlines are just as important as the day time deadlines. The players that are active at night need to be allowed time to communicate, strategize, and send in orders. And guess what, they might change their mind about what to do and thus having a deadline gives them a chance to do that. This is especially important when you run a game with the "revelation" style because something that happens to your character during the night might change your mind about what you should do. Again, to me, this is a more realistic playing style.
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Old Jul 31, 2012, 08:39 PM   #163
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if you go after a more realistic game style, then there is no reason to differentiate the seer behavior (for example) from when s/he is a wolf or when s/he is not: Until s/he dies, s/he can talk.
there is no 'spilling the beans', because the characters are not dead until they are.
how is it realistic that the seer receives the result of a scan, and know who the bad guys are, but cannot tell anyone because they might or might not be dead in a few hours.

therefore -if this is the angle- there should be no limit whatsoever in what is allowed to be said during the night phase, including any 'revelation' any character might get from the GG.
if the GG means some information to be withheld until morning, than the safest, simples and most effective way is to in fact withhold the info until morning. the 'realistic' take is that the seer receives the results of the scan (their vision) in the morning. if they got killed, this happened unfortunately before they could share such information.

but i don't understand the double standard. no one ever claimed that the wolves cannot share the info they have, but if they can so can the villagers. the wolves share info through PMs, the villager by posting in the thread.
it is inconsistent to allow one but not the other.

why to unnecessary complicate one's life? you can -as a GG- give the info early and then put up all sorts of complicated and uneven rules of who and when can share said info, or put one simple rule (you can say whatever you want as long as you are alive) and prevent complications by providing the scan result late.

it is actually more realistic, it's consistent and it's simpler. what's not to like?
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Old Jul 31, 2012, 08:55 PM   #164
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I think we should run a game were all the scan results are sent right before the morning naration, and see which we prefer. If I remember correctly its been a while since its been done that way, probably not since Ravenvii ran a game?
my games were run that way. i actually sort of assumed that it was the common approach until i got the ME scan result early in the last game.
and it put me in the weird position of not being able to post normally, which is one of the reasons i don't like it that way (apart from the infection situation), because it unnecessarily influence the game.

but for the most part is going to make no difference on the game.
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Old Jul 31, 2012, 09:48 PM   #165
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how is it realistic that the seer receives the result of a scan, and know who the bad guys are, but cannot tell anyone because they might or might not be dead in a few hours.

therefore -if this is the angle- there should be no limit whatsoever in what is allowed to be said during the night phase, including any 'revelation' any character might get from the GG.
if the GG means some information to be withheld until morning, than the safest, simples and most effective way is to in fact withhold the info until morning. the 'realistic' take is that the seer receives the results of the scan (their vision) in the morning. if they got killed, this happened unfortunately before they could share such information.

but i don't understand the double standard. no one ever claimed that the wolves cannot share the info they have, but if they can so can the villagers. the wolves share info through PMs, the villager by posting in the thread.
it is inconsistent to allow one but not the other.

why to unnecessary complicate one's life? you can -as a GG- give the info early and then put up all sorts of complicated and uneven rules of who and when can share said info, or put one simple rule (you can say whatever you want as long as you are alive) and prevent complications by providing the scan result late.

it is actually more realistic, it's consistent and it's simpler. what's not to like?
Sorry friend, but I disagree entirely. The game is divided into two specific categories of players:

1. those who are active during the day
2. those who are active during the night.

This is the basic essence of the game. Villagers are active during the day and are "asleep" or "hiding at home" during the night. Baddies are active during the day as wolves in sheep's clothing, but active in their true nature at night roaming the village as a pack seeking whom to devour. There is no double standard. The wolves (and vamps) are supposed to be able to PM each other and be active at night. That is why once a special is infected his special power becomes secondary to his new role as a member of the pack.

Now, there are some specials whose powers may grant them the ability to be active during the night, but they are only active in the sense that their special ability allows them to be. The Undertaker can scan the dead, the Seer can scan the living, the Hunter can hunt/instakill, or the Guard can protect a player. These special abilities don't require public or private interaction with other players, just the storyteller via PM. The only exception to this rule would be the NW; they are allowed to "secretly meet during the night" if they wish as they are allowed to PM each other at their discretion.

You asked how it was realistic that a Seer couldn't reveal his scan to the rest of the players in the game just because he dies that night. The answer is in the questions itself. He can't share the info because his fellow villagers are asleep in their beds and he is killed by the wolves before he can get to them to "spill the beans". Baddies are active at night as a group, individual specials like the Seer, Hunter, or Guard are not an active group at night and thus have no one to share the information with. Again, when a special starts playing for the bad guys team he/she plays by their rules because the nature of his character has changed.

I find it hard to believe that this concept is so difficult for you. Sure we are playing the game in a forum context across multiple timezones and people can actively post 24 hours a day regardless of whether it is technically "night time" in the game, but that doesn't mean we deny the suspension of disbelief required nor the inherent role playing nature that the game requires.

If we play with the method that you are presenting (all night time information gets presented simultaneously with the morning narrative) then you greatly handicap any advantage gained by infecting a special. Doing so would also pretty much destroy the "revelation" style of play because it would deny the baddies any opportunity to respond or change their mind about night time actions based on what happened to their characters during the evening.
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Old Aug 1, 2012, 02:24 PM   #166
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Sorry friend, but I disagree entirely. The game is divided into two specific categories of players:

...

If we play with the method that you are presenting (all night time information gets presented simultaneously with the morning narrative) then you greatly handicap any advantage gained by infecting a special. Doing so would also pretty much destroy the "revelation" style of play because it would deny the baddies any opportunity to respond or change their mind about night time actions based on what happened to their characters during the evening.
i guess we disagree entirely on this matter.

the only way what you are saying makes any sense is if the the wolves wouldn't post at day (which is a complete non-starter), and if posting at night was completely blocked for everyone (so people are in fact 'asleep'). This would be more like the board game and more 'realistic' (if you think it's realistic that nobody other than wolves are awake at night). But it is not how we have played so far.

the strict division of night player and day players that you are describing is non-existent in the way we have been playing the games.
wolves are as active as every other players during the day both in the thread and behind the scenes, while villagers have been playing at night (by posting during the night) and the special roles can also have activity during the night in many different ways. to argue that in the case of the villagers these are only exceptions is not convincing at all to me: they are still playing at night, just their mechanics are different from the wolves'.
fact is, villagers do play at night, and wolves do play during the day.

i don't find 'hard to believe' the model you propose. I just disagree with it.
I find it unnecessary, unjustified and unbalanced. Then if people want to play that way, fine, as long as it is clear that it is being done and that it is taking into account into the balancing.
and as far as the doomsday scenarios that you present with 'my method', I don't think they are particularly justified either, considering we have already played many, many games where this is how it worked, and in many others (probably the majority), it doesn't make a difference because the scenario doesn't play.
for what I am aware of, this was the first time that the wolves used a pre-scan by the infected seer to decide their kill on the same night. It might have happened before, but certainly not very often.

and the advantage of infecting the special is still there, intact: a special is now playing for team wolves. whatever they do, they now do it for the other team.
I don't see why we have to change the way the role operates just because they got infected.
The infected still plays by the wolves rules, but it doesn't mean he need access to the information before he had access to it when he was not infected, which is what you propose: that an infected special becomes 'enhanced' by the infection, and now has 'powers' that he didn't have before.
you can play that way, but there is no reason for it other than you like it that way.

again, if the infected can talk at night with the wolves, then there is no reason, technical, tactical or thematic that it should not be the same among villagers.
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 03:26 PM   #167
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Are we good for a new game ?

<---- not very good at starting new thread...
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 08:31 PM   #168
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What can we do to attract new players? We need to get these games going again, and we can't seem to get enough people to want to play.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 10:23 AM   #169
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 01:21 PM   #170
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I can't speak for everyone, but I've just been extremely busy this fall and winter.
Same here.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 02:49 PM   #171
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Ah yes. A resurrected WW rules discussion thread. A very welcome sight on a cold, dismal, miserable, November night with rain-lashed windows shuddering and the piercing shriek of howling gales reminding us why the word 'cosy' comes into its own around now.

Well, I, too, have been rather preoccupied this autumn, but having just re-read this thread in its entirety, a WW outing before the Yuletide break would be a welcome diversion.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 10:22 PM   #172
rick snagwell
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: oceanside, ca
we have had a nice break, i too have been super busy and will be for a while, but will always make time to visit the land of Mrville.
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