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Old Jul 18, 2012, 06:25 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by NathanMuir View Post
Personally, I think that there is much more oversight in the education system than in Scouting.
Clarify something for me please because I can't quite wrap my head around basic logic of what you're saying.

What exactly are you claiming? Is it that since it would be reasonable to assume that a LGBT is more likely to sexually abuse children therefore it's a reasonable act to exclude LGBT persons from holding any office or job where they might be around children?

If that is what you're saying then that's totally FUBAR.
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Old Jul 18, 2012, 06:30 PM   #77
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Clarify something for me please because I can't wrap my head around basis logic of what you're saying.

What exactly are you claiming? Is it that since would be reasonable to assume that a LGBT is more likely to sexually abuse children therefore it's a reasonable act to exclude LGBT persons from holding any office or job where they might be around children?

If that is what you're saying then that's totally FUBAR.
Those are your words; not mine.

I'm saying that the BSA lacks the necessary or required safeguard structure that is commonly found in other organizations that educate or interact with children.
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Old Jul 18, 2012, 06:32 PM   #78
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Sorry, but this sounds like a slippery slope argument to me. Every scenario you've mentioned thus far has much more control and oversight than BSA had when I came up.



Sorry you feel that way but IMO you're a bit like Lee in these situations; tone deaf to reason. Disagree, as do I, with the ban all you want but to see anything more is just the tin foil hat talking IMO. Not everyone is out to get you. Or a bigot for the matter.
Little League or Pop Warner has more oversight and control than the BSA does? Come on.

Seriously? Tin foil hat talking? You're saying that the ban is "necessary" to avoid lawsuits. Why would there be lawsuits, other than bigots claiming a homosexual troop leader molested their children. How is that reasonable? Why wouldn't they ban Priests then? Just to be on the safe side?

It's completely offensive - and yes, I'm sensitive to things like this; because I hate the fact that I live in a world that treats me differently. And I hate that I have to raise my children in this environment as well. I also hate the fact that I may have to have a conversation with my son in a few years about why I won't let him join the Boy Scouts.
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Old Jul 18, 2012, 06:33 PM   #79
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Those are your words; not mine.

I'm saying that the BSA lacks the necessary or required safeguard structure that is commonly found in other organizations that educate or interact with children.
So these safe guards are not needed for god believing straight people that are there now but are needed for non believers and gays?
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Old Jul 18, 2012, 06:35 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by NathanMuir View Post
Those are your words; not mine.

I'm saying that the BSA lacks the necessary or required safeguard structure that is commonly found in other organizations that educate or interact with children.
Why should the "safeguard structure" be any different for a homosexual adult than it would be for a heterosexual adult?

Edit: Oops! FreeState beat me to it.
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Old Jul 18, 2012, 06:36 PM   #81
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Those are your words; not mine.

I'm saying that the BSA lacks the necessary or required safeguard structure that is commonly found in other organizations that educate or interact with children.
If that is fact then the BSA should shut its damn doors because it sounds like it's potentially dangerous for children to be involved with that organization.
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Old Jul 18, 2012, 06:42 PM   #82
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So these safe guards are not needed for god believing straight people that are there now but are needed for non believers and gays?
And you're trying to make this a religious thing because?

----------

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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
Why should the "safeguard structure" be any different for a homosexual adult than it would be for a heterosexual adult?

Edit: Oops! FreeState beat me to it.
So you think it's unnecessary for organizations that handle children to have safeguards of any sort?

Seriously, what is wrong with the idea that the BSA should have a screening and protection structure similar to any other organization that handles children on a daily basis?

I'm not the one that is trying to make this a 'homo v. hetero' argument. Where the **** did that come from?

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If that is fact then the BSA should shut its damn doors because it sounds like it's potentially dangerous for children to be involved with that organization.
Because you speak from experience, right?

Amazing the number of experts we've got in this thread.

I'm done with this thread. Tomorrow and I tried to present an even handed view of the situation as we've both been involved and can speak from experience. However, you 'experts' appear to have a better handle on the situation than us. ****ing ridiculous.
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Old Jul 18, 2012, 06:46 PM   #83
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And you're trying to make this a religious thing because?

----------



So you think it's unnecessary for organizations that handle children to have safeguards of any sort?

Seriously, what is wrong with the idea that the BSA should have a screening and protection structure similar to any other organization that handles children on a daily basis?

I'm not the one that is trying to make this a 'homo v. hetero' argument. Where the **** did that come from?

----------



Because you speak from experience, right?

Amazing the number of experts we've got in this thread.

I'm done with this thread. Tomorrow and I tried to present an even handed view of the situation as we've both been involved and can speak from experience. However, you 'experts' appear to have a better handle on the situation than us.
Because they dont allow nonbelievers? Its not me that makes that policy its the BSA.
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Old Jul 18, 2012, 06:46 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by NathanMuir View Post

So you think it's unnecessary for organizations that handle children to have safeguards of any sort?

Seriously, what is wrong with the idea that the BSA should have a screening and protection structure similar to any other organization that handles children on a daily basis?

I'm not the one that is trying to make this a 'homo v. hetero' argument. Where the **** did that come from? [COLOR="#808080"]
.
Why are you being obtuse?

Are you aware that this discussion is about the ban on gays that the BSA just affirmed?

You said, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the ban was necessary to protect all sides from lawsuits - real and frivolous. So how is it not a homo v hetero argument. Why should homosexual adults be treated any differently around children than heterosexual adults? Why should they need to "screen" and "protect" hetersexuals? This ban is on GAYS.

Geeze.
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Old Jul 18, 2012, 06:49 PM   #85
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Ex-Boy scout suggesting closing down the entire BSA rather than change policy to allow gays in. Some woolly argument about avoiding lawsuits to cover it.

Went as well as can be expected
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Old Jul 18, 2012, 06:49 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by NathanMuir View Post

I'm done with this thread. Tomorrow and I tried to present an even handed view of the situation as we've both been involved and can speak from experience. However, you 'experts' appear to have a better handle on the situation than us. ****ing ridiculous.
You should be done with this thread - because at this point I believe you have no idea what you are even arguing.


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I think that this ban is necessary until there is comprehensive national 'policy' that deals with the equal treatment for LBTQ persons.
This was your quote - and you have yet to explain why you think the policies in the BSA should be different based on one's sexual orientation.
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Old Jul 18, 2012, 07:21 PM   #87
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Because you speak from experience, right?

Amazing the number of experts we've got in this thread.

I'm done with this thread. Tomorrow and I tried to present an even handed view of the situation as we've both been involved and can speak from experience. However, you 'experts' appear to have a better handle on the situation than us. ****ing ridiculous.
When an "expert" claims that the BSA is not a religious organization when in fact the organization states that it _is_ in fact a religious organization I have to question the expertise of the so-called expert.

I asked for clarification regarding your "expert opinion" and never did get a clear response as to what you were trying to say. Since I'm left with the impression that you were implying that LGBT persons require more levels of supervision than non-LGBT persons I also question your expertise.
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Old Jul 18, 2012, 09:11 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by niuniu View Post
What is the youngest age someone can have a determined sexuality then?
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No idea
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Originally Posted by leekohler View Post
You certainly seemed pretty sure you knew earlier in this thread..
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Originally Posted by niuniu View Post
We knew that already.
As far as I am aware the 'homosexual' or 'gay' gene/chromosome is present from the child's birth. As such I have been gay from day one. I may not have been conscious of, or acted on my bias until about 10 or 11 but I most certainly was there in body and soon in mind. So I contend and agree with Lee and Niuniu that by the time an adolescent is in his or her "tweens" they know their own proclivity, sexuality and nobody can tell me otherwise.

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Old Jul 18, 2012, 09:14 PM   #89
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As far as I am aware the 'homosexual' or 'gay' gene/chromosome is present from the child's birth. As such I have been gay from day one. I may not have been conscious of, or acted on my bias until about 10 or 11 but I most certainly was there in body and soon in mind. So I contend and agree with Lee and Niuniu that by the time an adolescent is in his or her "tweens" they know their own proclivity, sexuality and nobody can tell me otherwise.

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You mean, nobody except for eric/, who seems to be an expert in 12 year olds.
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Old Jul 18, 2012, 09:24 PM   #90
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You mean, nobody except for eric/, who seems to be an expert in 12 year olds.
Ah,yes, he's a .... and should realise that he's on Queer Street.

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Old Jul 18, 2012, 09:50 PM   #91
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You can't remember anything religious? Really?

At each meeting you recited a pledge that contained the phrase about your "duty to God" and you were a member of an organization that specifically excludes atheists and agnostics because of the organization's requirement of belief in a God or comparable higher power by all members.

If some organization was receiving $2-million from taxpayer money to fund a gigantic party in the woods for only atheists and agnostics kids the nation's right-wingers would be having a hissy-fit and Rush Limbaugh's head would probably explode.
Hehe.. this is basically my issue. They should have never received public funding. They get it today due to precedence, and I still think it's a creepy organization.

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Little League or Pop Warner has more oversight and control than the BSA does? Come on.

Seriously? Tin foil hat talking? You're saying that the ban is "necessary" to avoid lawsuits. Why would there be lawsuits, other than bigots claiming a homosexual troop leader molested their children. How is that reasonable? Why wouldn't they ban Priests then? Just to be on the safe side?

It's completely offensive - and yes, I'm sensitive to things like this; because I hate the fact that I live in a world that treats me differently. And I hate that I have to raise my children in this environment as well. I also hate the fact that I may have to have a conversation with my son in a few years about why I won't let him join the Boy Scouts.
There has never been any real evidence that homosexual adults have any attraction to children. It seems like an incredibly backwards way of thinking. Would every one of those priests count as gay? Somehow I doubt it. Anyway their indoctrination is creepy anyway even if they remove the homophobic aspect.
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Old Jul 18, 2012, 09:57 PM   #92
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There has never been any real evidence that homosexual adults have any attraction to children. It seems like an incredibly backwards way of thinking. Would every one of those priests count as gay? Somehow I doubt it. Anyway their indoctrination is creepy anyway even if they remove the homophobic aspect.
Studies have shown that pedophiles are absolutely not gay - whether they are assaulting children of the same sex or not. It's a horrible assumption that many people make. And an easy way to excuse ignorance and bigotry.
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Old Jul 18, 2012, 10:14 PM   #93
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Studies have shown that pedophiles are absolutely not gay - whether they are assaulting children of the same sex or not. It's a horrible assumption that many people make. And an easy way to excuse ignorance and bigotry.
That was the point. I've never read any evidence that even insinuated that homosexuality was related to pedophilia in any way. It's actually weird that they would be associated.
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Old Jul 18, 2012, 10:45 PM   #94
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Hehe.. this is basically my issue. They should have never received public funding. They get it today due to precedence, and I still think it's a creepy organization.
Yep. It's been going on for a while. Since the 1930s the U.S. military has been supporting the Boy Scouts’ multi-day Jamboree celebration (featuring sound stages, laser light shows, and fabulous fireworks as of late) with contractors and $2 million a year in Defense Department funding in recent years. This Defense Department spending obviously is money well spent! No country has invaded the U.S. since then to this very day!

But in 2005 "tradition" did get some help, when the Republicans helped pass the Support Our Scouts Act which forbids Local, State and Federal agencies from reducing their support for the Boy Scouts of America, which in turn virtually stopped any attempts by lawsuits to limit government support of the organization due to their exclusion of gays and atheists.

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Old Jul 18, 2012, 10:50 PM   #95
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I was a Scout about thirty years ago, when the BSA was headquartered in Brunswick, NJ, and it wasn't a political organization. Ever since they moved their headquarters to Texas, they've turned into a political/religious organization, and it's a shame.
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Old Jul 19, 2012, 12:30 AM   #96
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Wasn't Sandusky married? He wasn't gay, he was exactly the kind of guy the Boy Scouts would want as a leader and role model. Their decision is based on bigotry, plain and simple.
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Old Jul 19, 2012, 04:32 AM   #97
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No, it's just that kids:

A. Don't know what gay or straight means, or what sex really is
B. Don't know anything about the world at all
C. Don't have a developed pre-frontal cortex
Do I have to spell it out to you? I masturbated over pictures of guys at that age. As far as indicators about knowing my orientation go that's pretty clear cut.
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Old Jul 19, 2012, 05:05 AM   #98
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Do I have to spell it out to you? I masturbated over pictures of guys at that age.
Ah but how did you know they were pictures of guys?
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Old Jul 19, 2012, 05:11 AM   #99
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Ah but how did you know they were pictures of guys?
Good point. Without a developed pre-frontal cortex they may have been pictures of yachts for all I knew.

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Old Jul 19, 2012, 10:37 PM   #100
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Good point. They may have been pictures of yachts for all I knew.

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Yeah, but the tell tale give away was the tall masts topped with a fluttering pennant. And don't get started on the smoking stacks of motor cruisers.

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