Boy Scouts reaffirm ban on gays

[Mord]

It's a shame that scouts are so messed up in the states, here in the UK they're pretty inclusive. My girlfriend and several other lesbian/gay/trans friends of mine were scouts and all had good experiences.

Originally Posted by eric/

No, it's just that kids:

A. Don't know what gay or straight means, or what sex really is
B. Don't know anything about the world at all
C. Don't have a developed pre-frontal cortex[COLOR="#808080"]

Maybe your kids, but most of the twelve year olds I know are articulate, have a good sense of who they are and have had a good standard of sex education.

You're absolutely projecting here based on your really quite ****** perception of the intelligence of children, you may see them as clueless idiots, and for that I feel sorry for any child you come into contact with. I recall people like you when I was that age, and the perception that they were merely playing at interacting with me rather than actually engaging.

Anyway, on subject: I for one was a pretty confused 12 year old, I understood sex and sexuality perfectly well, and found myself only very mildly and occasionally attracted to both genders so my identity shifted from asexual, which I knew the definition of then, gradually to floating between straight/lesbian/bisexual through my latter teens.

I can see how if you were growing up straight you wouldn't give it a second thought as everything would feel "normal" or if you were like me but deeply repressed you'd project your confusion onto others as normal.

[Andeavor]

All I remember back when I was 12 was watching the Emmanuelle films and I couldn't care less for Emmanuelle...

[eric/]

Originally Posted by Mord

Maybe your kids, but most of the twelve year olds I know are articulate, have a good sense of who they are and have had a good standard of sex education.

You're absolutely projecting here based on your really quite ****** perception of the intelligence of children, you may see them as clueless idiots, and for that I feel sorry for any child you come into contact with. I recall people like you when I was that age, and the perception that they were merely playing at interacting with me rather than actually engaging.

Anyway, on subject: I for one was a pretty confused 12 year old, I understood sex and sexuality perfectly well, and found myself only very mildly and occasionally attracted to both genders so my identity shifted from asexual, which I knew the definition of then, gradually to floating between straight/lesbian/bisexual through my latter teens.

I can see how if you were growing up straight you wouldn't give it a second thought as everything would feel "normal" or if you were like me but deeply repressed you'd project your confusion onto others as normal.

Originally Posted by Queso

Do I have to spell it out to you? I masturbated over pictures of guys at that age. As far as indicators about knowing my orientation go that's pretty clear cut.

Nope not projecting. I guess we're just stuck here at a disagreement.

[Queso]

Originally Posted by eric/

Nope not projecting. I guess we're just stuck here at a disagreement.

The only thing that's stuck is your refusal just to admit you're wrong.

Once again, I KNOW what I felt at age 12. You THINK I didn't. Those positions are not equivalent.

It's OK to back down. In the grown up world you can admit you're wrong. Why don't you just do so? People will think better of you for it I can guarantee.

[eric/]

Originally Posted by Queso

The only thing that's stuck is your refusal just to admit you're wrong.

I always admit when I'm wrong. I have 0 qualms with doing so.

Originally Posted by Queso

Once again, I KNOW what I felt at age 12. You THINK I didn't. Those positions are not equivalent.

It's OK to back down. In the grown up world you can admit you're wrong. Why don't you just do so? People will think better of you for it I can guarantee.

I knew that I wanted to be a doctor when I was 12. By 14 I wanted to join the Army.

You don't know anything for sure at 12, because you don't have a logical brain and you're going through hormonal changes. You can be homosexual at 12 and straight at 13 and vice versa. At 12 you're only living in the moment. I suppose you may be the exception, but in general, 12 year old kids don't know crap about anything, much less about sex or what sexual orientation really means.

[Alameda]

I didn't learn to be straight from the Boy Scouts, I learned from Farrah Fawcett and Cheryl Tiegs. It never crossed my mind to want sex with a man. Yech! So I just don't get it at all -- people who are anti-gay must feel threatened by gays because they themselves are gay.

Because, to be clear, gay-haters, real straight men don't feel threatened by gays, because we have zero attraction to other men. We appreciate gays because they leave more women available for us!

[Queso]

Originally Posted by eric/

I knew that I wanted to be a doctor when I was 12. By 14 I wanted to join the Army.

You don't know anything for sure at 12, because you don't have a logical brain and you're going through hormonal changes. You can be homosexual at 12 and straight at 13 and vice versa. At 12 you're only living in the moment. I suppose you may be the exception, but in general, 12 year old kids don't know crap about anything, much less about sex or what sexual orientation really means.

From this I can only conclude you were quite a backwards and undeveloped 12 year old.

Evaluating career choices at that age is not the same as becoming aware of sexuality. You're making a mistake by assuming that sexuality is something logical, rather than something driven by what's going on in your body. Orientations aren't choices, they're just something that occurs, like being left or right handed.

Sexual awareness and puberty come on at different ages for different people. For instance, some girls start their periods at age 10. Others don't until they're 15. Whilst guys don't get that obvious signal to the start of things it similarly comes on at different ages for different boys.

[eric/]

Originally Posted by Queso

From this I can only conclude you were quite a backwards and undeveloped 12 year old.

False conclusion then.

Originally Posted by Queso

Evaluating career choices at that age is not the same as becoming aware of sexuality. You're making a mistake by assuming that sexuality is something logical, rather than something driven by what's going on in your body. Orientations aren't choices, they're just something that occurs, like being left or right handed.

You're reading too much into career choices. Replace: I knew I "wanted to be" with pretty much anything and the meaning remains the same.

Originally Posted by Queso

Sexual awareness and puberty come on at different ages for different people. For instance, some girls start their periods at age 10. Others don't until they're 15. Whilst guys don't get that obvious signal to the start of things it similarly comes on at different ages for different boys.

True, puberty does come at different ages. But at 12 you don't know anything. So as I said before, I guess we just disagree.

[Queso]

Originally Posted by eric/

You're reading too much into career choices. Replace: I knew I "wanted to be" with pretty much anything and the meaning remains the same.

Have you deliberately discarded the point about sexual awareness not being a logical choice then?

True, puberty does come at different ages. But at 12 you don't know anything. So as I said before, I guess we just disagree.

And as I said, we don't disagree from positions of equivalent standing. Your claim is to speak for the entire human race, which means the entire thrust of your argument is that I and others here are lying. Whenever you find yourself in that sort of position it's a good indicator that you're actually wrong.

Why don't you go and have a think?

[eric/]

Originally Posted by Queso

Have you deliberately discarded the point about sexual awareness not being a logical choice then?

No I just didn't respond to it because it doesn't help your case at all, but is a detriment.

Originally Posted by Queso

And as I said, we don't disagree from positions of equivalent standing. Your claim is to speak for the entire human race, which means the entire thrust of your argument is that I and others here are lying. Whenever you find yourself in that sort of position it's a good indicator that you're actually wrong.

Well of course there are examples of things that deviate from the norm. This isn't hard science here.

Originally Posted by Queso

Why don't you go and have a think?

Why don't you be condescending and rude?

[niuniu]

Originally Posted by Queso

Why don't you go and have a think?

Requires brain.

[Queso]

Originally Posted by eric/

Well of course there are examples of things that deviate from the norm.

Bingo!! Exactly my point!!

Why don't you be condescending and rude?

Someone isn't being condescending and rude when they correct you for being wrong. If you feel that way then it's your problem, not that of the person doing the correcting.

[eric/]

Originally Posted by Queso

Bingo!! Exactly my point!!

But it doesn't prove your point. 12 year olds don't know crap. Because you "knew" that you were homosexual at 12 doesn't prove anything. As a society we collectively recognize that 12 year olds don't know anything. That's why they can't get jobs, sign contracts, get married, have sex, etc.... They don't know what they are doing.

Originally Posted by Queso

Someone isn't being condescending and rude when they correct you for being wrong. If you feel that way then it's your problem, not that of the person doing the correcting.

Big difference between being corrected from being wrong, and telling somebody to "go have a think".

----------

Originally Posted by niuniu

Requires brain.

If I don't have a brain, that sure says a lot about you when you sit here and argue with me for 7 pages.

[.Andy]

Originally Posted by eric/

As a society we collectively recognize that 12 year olds don't know anything. That's why they can't get jobs, sign contracts, get married, have sex, etc.... They don't know what they are doing.

Perhaps in the society you live in. In my society those activities aren't withheld from 12 year olds solely because they lack knowledge. It's because they lack the maturity to make decisions and understand the ramifications.

And this might come as a shock to you but 12 year olds can and do have sex.

[eric/]

Originally Posted by .Andy

Perhaps in the society you live in. In my society those activities aren't withheld from 12 year olds solely because they lack knowledge. It's because they lack the maturity to make decisions and understand the ramifications.

And they lack maturity to make decisions because.......?

Originally Posted by .Andy

And this might come as a shock to you but 12 year olds can and do have sex.

And is that encouraged or not?

[niuniu]

Originally Posted by eric/

If I don't have a brain, that sure says a lot about you when you sit here and argue with me for 7 pages.

Incoherent points of view waste the most time.

[Queso]

Originally Posted by eric/

But it doesn't prove your point. 12 year olds don't know crap. Because you "knew" that you were homosexual at 12 doesn't prove anything. As a society we collectively recognize that 12 year olds don't know anything. That's why they can't get jobs, sign contracts, get married, have sex, etc.... They don't know what they are doing.

Once again, sexual awareness has nothing to do with logical thought. It doesn't matter if the head of a 12-year old is all over the place, because it's not their head that dictates what's going on with their emerging libido.

I'm starting to believe you see homosexuality as being a choice. Is that how you see it?

Big difference between being corrected from being wrong, and telling somebody to "go have a think"

And there's a big difference between someone asking you to consider something and someone being rude and condescending.

[.Andy]

Originally Posted by eric/

And they lack maturity to make decisions because.......?

They are immature. Not because they lack knowledge of their sexuality.

Originally Posted by eric/

And is that encouraged or not?

Stop shifting the goalposts. You clearly claimed they can't have sex. That is incorrect.

[eric/]

Originally Posted by .Andy

They are immature. Not because they lack knowledge of their sexuality.

And why are they considered immature?

Originally Posted by .Andy

Stop shifting the goalposts. You clearly claimed they can't have sex. That is incorrect.

Ok they can physically have sex. Is it encouraged? Why or why not?

----------

Originally Posted by Queso

Once again, sexual awareness has nothing to do with logical thought. It doesn't matter if the head of a 12-year old is all over the place, because it's not their head that dictates what's going on with their emerging libido.

It does matter. If it's not their head deciding things than how can they know?

Originally Posted by Queso

I'm starting to believe you see homosexuality as being a choice. Is that how you see it?

I think it depends on the person and I think it's both nature and nurture. Science still doesn't know yet.

Originally Posted by Queso

And there's a big difference between someone asking you to consider something and someone being rude and condescending.

You didn't ask me to consider anything. You were just rude and condescending and told me to "go have a think".

[.Andy]

Originally Posted by eric/

And why are they considered immature?

I have already answered this above. See post 114 that you quoted but apparently did not read.

Originally Posted by eric/

Ok they can physically have sex. Is it encouraged? Why or why not?

I don't see what this has to do with you claiming 12 years olds can't have sex in the society you live in. Besides a feeble attempt to distract from the fact that you were incorrect.

[Queso]

Originally Posted by eric/

It does matter. If it's not their head deciding things than how can they know?

How does one know when they're hungry? Is it a logical choice or something that their body makes them aware of? Does a 12 year old know when they are hungry?

[eric/]

Originally Posted by .Andy

I have already answered this above. See post 114 that you quoted but apparently did not read.

Ok. Why don't they understand the ramifications?

Originally Posted by .Andy

I don't see what this has to do with you claiming 12 years olds can't have sex in the society you live in. Besides a feeble attempt to distract from the fact that you were incorrect.

I was incorrect in saying that 12 year olds can't physically have sex. :roll eyes:

Now, why is sex between 12 year olds discouraged?

[eric/]

Originally Posted by Queso

How does one know when they're hungry? Is it a logical choice or something that their body makes them aware of? Does a 12 year old know when they are hungry?

There are acute physical signs. You may feel weak, your stomach will ache, etc...

[Andeavor]

Originally Posted by eric/

But it doesn't prove your point. 12 year olds don't know crap. Because you "knew" that you were homosexual at 12 doesn't prove anything. As a society we collectively recognize that 12 year olds don't know anything. That's why they can't get jobs, sign contracts, get married, have sex, etc.... They don't know what they are doing.

You have some things backwards in your theory. There was a time when 12-year olds already had to work or train for the army and in some cultures they were even (promised to be) married to the partner of their parents' choice.

In those times, kids had to grow up fast, in fact it is the age of 12/13 when not even 100 years ago, a kid became a young adult, boys had to learn to become gentlemen and girls were trained in the ways of a lady. It was only in the 50s when society started to give teenagers their own culture and some leeway before becoming an adult.

At 12 you may not know a lot about the world, but you start to know a lot about yourself. Your hormones will kick in and you will come to the realization just whom you are attracted to. Unfortunately, it is society's will that you should follow a certain mould and that some things are off limits to you due to your age, gender or cultural background. This includes sexuality and the how, the when and with whom. If there was no 'adult supervision' or rules to live by (in terms of sexuality) we wouldn't have as many confused teenagers and young adults that grow up with sexual identification issues. Nature will take its course and as long as nobody gets harmed, we all survive.

[.Andy]

Originally Posted by eric/

Ok. Why don't they understand the ramifications?

Because they largely lack the maturity, foresight, and personal experience to do so. Not because they lack knowledge of their sexuality.

Originally Posted by eric/

Now, why is sex between 12 year olds discouraged?

Again, see post 114