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Old Jul 20, 2012, 06:54 AM   #126
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Because they largely lack the maturity, foresight, and personal experience to do so.
And why do they lack maturity and foresight?

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Not because they lack knowledge of their sexuality.
I'm not claiming they don't have sex because of their lack of knowledge of sexuality.

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Again, see post 114
So why don't they understand the ramifications? Do any 12 year olds understand the ramifications?
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Old Jul 20, 2012, 06:57 AM   #127
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And why do they lack maturity and foresight?

So why don't they understand the ramifications? Do any 12 year olds understand the ramifications?
It's simple inexperience, which has nothing to do with the natural urges to masturbate or have sex. Then you'd have to take it up with mother nature.
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Old Jul 20, 2012, 06:59 AM   #128
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I'm not claiming they don't have sex because of their lack of knowledge of sexuality.
What exactly are you claiming about 12 years olds and sexuality? Just to clarify.
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Old Jul 20, 2012, 07:04 AM   #129
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There are acute physical signs. You may feel weak, your stomach will ache, etc...
Indeed. The body knows it needs food, and relays those signals to the mind, which interprets them into the human concept of hunger.

So now for the other question in that post. Does a 12 year old know when they are hungry?
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Old Jul 20, 2012, 07:08 AM   #130
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What exactly are you claiming about 12 years olds and sexuality? Just to clarify.
In response to banning gays, I said something along the lines of "who the hell knows their gay at 12". I don't think 12 year olds know anything, and that's reflected in society. And I really doubt lack of experience is the issue here.
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Old Jul 20, 2012, 07:09 AM   #131
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If only there was some sort of "acute physical sign" that males are aroused.
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Old Jul 20, 2012, 07:22 AM   #132
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In response to banning gays, I said something along the lines of "who the hell knows their gay at 12". I don't think 12 year olds know anything, and that's reflected in society. And I really doubt lack of experience is the issue here.
For a time, many 12-year olds may have not know what the word "gay" means (and judging by the way it's used in vernacular it may very well be negative to them) but they sure as hell know who they are attracted to.

As I already mentioned, I and many others in this thread (and many more out there) already knew we didn't conform to the "norm of society", hence we already knew at the young age of 12 (and before) what made us tick... differently.

So, how can you still claim that 12-year olds don't know anything. They already know something, but it's not until they start talking with others about it that they know what to call it.

And with all that said, banning gays or refusing to talk about homosexuality in school or extracurricular activities, is only doing those kids harm because they will feel left out and will be at a disadvantage of learning more about themselves, unlike everybody else who seems just fine with sex and alcohol at house parties and teen pregnancies...
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Old Jul 20, 2012, 07:32 AM   #133
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If only there was some sort of "acute physical sign" that males are aroused.
Signs in the plural. The visible might be the most obvious, but all those feelings that go with it are far more important to the one undergoing the experience.

Quick question for you .Andy, as nobody else seems to want to answer it? Does a 12 year old know when they're hungry?
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Old Jul 20, 2012, 07:45 AM   #134
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I don't think 12 year olds know anything, and that's reflected in society. And I really doubt lack of experience is the issue here.
Again. Self-projection about yourself, and your society.
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Old Jul 20, 2012, 07:57 AM   #135
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Quick question for you .Andy, as nobody else seems to want to answer it? Does a 12 year old know when they're hungry?
No they are too young. Society won't let them.
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Old Jul 20, 2012, 08:11 AM   #136
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I didn't learn to be straight from the Boy Scouts, I learned from Farrah Fawcett and Cheryl Tiegs. It never crossed my mind to want sex with a man. Yech! So I just don't get it at all -- people who are anti-gay must feel threatened by gays because they themselves are gay.

Because, to be clear, gay-haters, real straight men don't feel threatened by gays, because we have zero attraction to other men. We appreciate gays because they leave more women available for us!
All the Gay-Haters I know are Ultra-Conservatives and/or Fundamental Christian/Muslim...

More of a culture and religious thing.
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Old Jul 20, 2012, 10:16 AM   #137
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In response to banning gays, I said something along the lines of "who the hell knows their gay at 12". I don't think 12 year olds know anything, and that's reflected in society. And I really doubt lack of experience is the issue here.
I don't see what that has to do with anything. They should still be able to speak about their thoughts freely with their fellow scout leaders and scouts. Some people do know for sure at 12 and that's fine for them, some don't... so why not just help those out instead of discouraging them?
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Old Jul 20, 2012, 02:02 PM   #138
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You can be homosexual at 12 and straight at 13 and vice versa. At 12 you're only living in the moment.
WTH? Forget the 12 year old, clearly you do not understand how sexuality works yourself even!! You aren't attracted to boys one year and then attracted to girls the next, unless you are referring to bisexuality which I think you may be getting confused with. Either you like only boys (and always will) like only girls (and always will) or are bisexual and like both (and always will).

If you are truly homosexual or heterosexual (and not bisexual) then you will always only like and be attracted to one thing. If you do like more then one sex, then you are bisexual.

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Then that time has come, cause clearly you are wrong on what constitutes sexuality. Even for a 12 or 13 year old.
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Old Jul 20, 2012, 02:43 PM   #139
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I
You don't know anything for sure at 12, because you don't have a logical brain and you're going through hormonal changes. You can be homosexual at 12 and straight at 13 and vice versa. At 12 you're only living in the moment. I suppose you may be the exception, but in general, 12 year old kids don't know crap about anything, much less about sex or what sexual orientation really means.
Unbelievable.

You have absolutely no clue. Stop telling people what they have felt or experienced is wrong. You're clearly projecting. And you're clearly wrong. You are just embarrassing yourself now.
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Old Jul 20, 2012, 05:45 PM   #140
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In response to banning gays, I said something along the lines of "who the hell knows their gay at 12". I don't think 12 year olds know anything, and that's reflected in society. And I really doubt lack of experience is the issue here.
Yeah but hasn't it been pointed out that the boys scouts have older members and the ban also includes the adult leaders? Why are we still stuck on the 12 year olds?
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Old Jul 20, 2012, 06:49 PM   #141
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Yeah, but hasn't it been pointed out that the boys scouts have older members, and the ban also includes the adult leaders? Why are we still stuck on the 12 year-old's?
Well, someone still has an issue with them.
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Old Jul 20, 2012, 07:01 PM   #142
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Unbelievable.

You have absolutely no clue. Stop telling people what they have felt or experienced is wrong. You're clearly projecting. And you're clearly wrong. You are just embarrassing yourself now.
Sorry, the irony was just too heavy.

How/ what would you categorize what you said earlier to myself and Tomorrow as then?

Because you made it pretty clear that we were both 'wrong'.
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Old Jul 20, 2012, 07:01 PM   #143
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You don't know anything for sure at 12, because you don't have a logical brain and you're going through hormonal changes. You can be homosexual at 12 and straight at 13 and vice versa. At 12 you're only living in the moment. I suppose you may be the exception, but in general, 12 year old kids don't know crap about anything, much less about sex or what sexual orientation really means.
At 12 you...don't have a logical brain? That doesn't even make any sense. I don't know how many times people have to provide evidence that this isn't correct.

When I was five, I brought my kindergarten teacher flowers and asked her to marry me. I think you know less about human development and sexuality than you think.

And I feel terrible for that poor den mother and her son. How cruel and exclusionary for no good reason. Things like this are a rude wake up call that we still live in a world where gay people are subject to mindless discrimination.

Edit: And of course it's a hell of a lot easier not to get upset at stories like these if they don't affect you whatsoever. Try being a calm observer when you're directly discriminated against, or grouped with pedophiles casually, or banned from being a den mother to your own kid's troop.
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Old Jul 20, 2012, 07:12 PM   #144
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Sorry, the irony was just too heavy.

How/ what would you categorize what you said earlier to myself and Tomorrow as then?

Because you made it pretty clear that we were both 'wrong'.
When exactly did I make it clear that you were "wrong"? I never said your experiences in the Boy Scouts weren't what you experienced. I believe that sexuality was never brought up when you were in it - and I never said otherwise. Which makes it even more ridiculous that they would have such a ban in place.

The fact of the matter, Nathan, is that the BSA have made the ban - it's not something I'm making up. And the fact of the matter Nathan, is that if I wanted to be a troop leader I wouldn't be allowed to. Right?

The only thing I challenged you on was your ridiculous assertion that this ban was necessary to save both sides from real / frivolous lawsuits.

I asked more than once in this thread, why there should be different policies for homosexuals and heterosexuals....heterosexuals can abuse children, can't they? And you left the thread before answering. Shocking.
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 08:37 PM   #145
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 09:30 PM   #146
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 09:59 PM   #147
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When exactly did I make it clear that you were "wrong"? I never said your experiences in the Boy Scouts weren't what you experienced. I believe that sexuality was never brought up when you were in it - and I never said otherwise. Which makes it even more ridiculous that they would have such a ban in place.

The fact of the matter, Nathan, is that the BSA have made the ban - it's not something I'm making up. And the fact of the matter Nathan, is that if I wanted to be a troop leader I wouldn't be allowed to. Right?

The only thing I challenged you on was your ridiculous assertion that this ban was necessary to save both sides from real / frivolous lawsuits.

I asked more than once in this thread, why there should be different policies for homosexuals and heterosexuals....heterosexuals can abuse children, can't they? And you left the thread before answering. Shocking.
I would like to know the same- why are the rules different? We're not child molesters. So what is the issue?
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 10:04 PM   #148
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I would like to know the same- why are the rules different? We're not child molesters. So what is the issue?
You'll notice he never came back to answer. Just like the first time I asked him.
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 10:20 PM   #149
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You'll notice he never came back to answer. Just like the first time I asked him.
Did your closed mindedness change?

Alright then.

Why would I continue to engage with someone who it acting too facetious to admit they see the difference. You're the one that continues to make this a hetero v. homo argument, not me.

I think I made it perfectly clear that the BSA ought to have the same policies in place as any program that handles children. That could be the Boys and Girls Club, an after school program at virtually any school in any state or any third party day care provider.

I do not know where you developed this notion that I was calling for a different standard for the BSA, I repeatedly said, that to the best of my knowledge, the BSA does not have a similar program to background check and monitor adult leaders like the aforementioned organizations do(hetero or homo, I don't care but it seems you do). Until they do, this ban is the next best thing, for better or worse, that they have at the present time.

I've said repeatedly that I do not agree with the ban, but I'll say it again anyways.
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 10:23 PM   #150
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Did your closed mindedness change?

Alright then.

Why would I continue to engage with someone who it acting too facetious to admit they see the difference. You're the one that continues to make this a hetero v. homo argument, not me.

I think I made it perfectly clear that the BSA ought to have the same policies in place as any program that handles children. That could be the Boys and Girls Club, an after school program at virtually any school in any state or any third party day care provider.

I do not know where you developed this notion that I was calling for a different standard for the BSA, I repeatedly said, that to the best of my knowledge, the BSA does not have a similar program to background check and monitor adult leaders like the aforementioned organizations do(hetero or homo, I don't care but it seems you do). Until they do, this ban is the next best thing, for better or worse, that they have at the present time.

I've said repeatedly that I do not agree with the ban, but I'll say it again anyways.
I'm missing something. You wrote that the BSA doesn't have a program to background check their adult leaders so the ban is the next best thing. What does banning gay leaders have to do with background checking leaders? How is that the next best thing unless someone thinks that gays are more likely to molest boys?
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