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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:19 PM   #26
lzyprson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reach9 View Post
what an incorrect statement. Every competitive company's goal is to maximize profits. Their goal is to make money.
Jonny is trying to make it look like Apple is different than any other company, when in it's definition it's the same as Samsung, RIM, Google etc, ... their goal is to make money.
Apple makes great products to get money, but money is still the main driving force.

Also, if a two-toned iPhone is their 'best work yet'.. then i'm unpleasantly surprised.
What he and Steve Jobs said and meant is that the people who are making the products aren't concerned with how much money they make or dont make.

Granted these guys (individually) are making a pretty penny, but do you think they care what the house makes??? Real artists don't care about the value/price of their designs. They care about how accepted they are by everyone.

Read that last sentence over and over until you get it... It's why Apple has been so successfull because the people behind the products aren't the Warren Buffets types... They're artists.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:20 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by spiderman0616 View Post
And this is why you're not in charge at Apple. Of course they care about their revenue--they can't go on as a company without it. But they are not thinking about revenue when they design products. They're just thinking about making the best product they can. Jony isn't paid to worry about exactly how many millions or billions the next iPad is going to bring in for Apple. He's paid to come up with the best design idea that he can.
He may not be, but tons of other people are. Maybe by "we" he meant himself and a few of his colleagues, and not the other fleet of people whose job it is to do exactly that.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:20 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Rennir View Post
If you disagree with his point, you realize you won't be able to pull the "But Apple is just a company like every other company in the world! Their main goal is profits!" excuse every time the NYT or some other source publishes an article lambasting Apple for being unethical right?
I disagree with the detail of that post. Sure, Apple is just a company and making a profit is always part of that, but that doesn't mean that the underlying purpose, the thing that drives them each and every day, isn't exactly what Ive says.

Let's just put it this way, Ive is a massively wealthy man, as are most of those who run the company. You think they go in and work hard every day to the money? That doesn't make sense.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:21 PM   #29
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I'm truly saddened by the degree of cynicism around this place.

Apple makes money, yeah, of course it makes money. But that's as a consequence of making great products, it isn't the purpose that drives them. If you want to make money you don't go into product design - you become a banker or lawyer. You can make plenty of money doing all sorts of stuff that's a darn sight less risky than launching innovative new products like the iPad or the iPod.

Why is it so many people want to believe the worst about others? If you really think such things, why the hell are you even here? Go and spend some time talking about something that makes you happy, eh?
Yes----it is sad. But in my years of using the internet, I've realized that nerds are the angriest people out there. Every new design sucks. Everything a company says is a lie. Every product released is a conspiracy. Everything Apple releases is a sign of the absence of Steve Jobs.

It's really stupid, and a good reason to stay away from sites like this when an iPhone launch is imminent.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:22 PM   #30
Zunjine
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Originally Posted by spiderman0616 View Post
Yes----it is sad. But in my years of using the internet, I've realized that nerds are the angriest people out there. Every new design sucks. Everything a company says is a lie. Every product released is a conspiracy. Everything Apple releases is a sign of the absence of Steve Jobs.

It's really stupid, and a good reason to stay away from sites like this when an iPhone launch is imminent.
Wise words.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:23 PM   #31
pesos
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Originally Posted by Zunjine View Post
I disagree with the detail of that post. Sure, Apple is just a company and making a profit is always part of that, but that doesn't mean that the underlying purpose, the thing that drives them each and every day, isn't exactly what Ive says.

Let's just put it this way, Ive is a massively wealthy man, as are most of those who run the company. You think they go in and work hard every day to the money? That doesn't make sense.
As are many of the designers at Sony, Samsung, etc. Are you saying THEY are any different than Ives? Or is the difference in the other departments?

I am happy to pay for quality, and I do, but to try and say that Apple has not traditionally milked the crap out of its consumers is blind fanboi-ism. Although it's exactly that that allowed Apple to charge $80 for a keyboard because it was see-through plastic! :-)
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:24 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zunjine View Post
I'm truly saddened by the degree of cynicism around this place.

Apple makes money, yeah, of course it makes money. But that's as a consequence of making great products, it isn't the purpose that drives them. If you want to make money you don't go into product design - you become a banker or lawyer. You can make plenty of money doing all sorts of stuff that's a darn sight less risky than launching innovative new products like the iPad or the iPod.
: And more likely NOT to go to prison after some shenanigan.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zunjine View Post
Why is it so many people want to believe the worst about others? If you really think such things, why the hell are you even here? Go and spend some time talking about something that makes you happy, eh?

Because that is what he/she more likely IS, so he/she despise anyone who thinks different.
At least he/she did not call him socialist/communist.

Making good ART which last more than money IS like being a GOD or immortal.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:26 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Reach9 View Post
what an incorrect statement. Every competitive company's goal is to maximize profits. Their goal is to make money.
Jonny is trying to make it look like Apple is different than any other company, when in it's definition it's the same as Samsung, RIM, Google etc, ... their goal is to make money.
Apple makes great products to get money, but money is still the main driving force.

Also, if a two-toned iPhone is their 'best work yet'.. then i'm unpleasantly surprised.
lol didn't hear that much missinformation in one post for a while. There are tons of competitive companies who do not care about profits at all because they are (owned/run by) foundations or very engaged in phelantropy. Heinz Ketchup, for example. There are companies which actually have that as their marketing concept e.g. Tom's Shoes. Sometimes, it is about market share, sometimes it's just the vision of the owner. Maximizing profits might be true for some but it's BS to drive it to an absolute. If that would be true, they would not build one car in Germany. It's way cheaper to build it elsewhere. Also, many communities own "companies" for a certain limited use - like a water supplier or a water treatment plan. Their goal is to keep it cost efficient and that's it. States own banks just to be able to stabilize markets or to govern transactions etc. The list can go on and on. My pointis: A company's primier goal is not only "not always profit maximization" but actually quite commonally somthing else.


PS: About the "best work yet" - did you all forget about the rumored TV/entertainment center?
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:28 PM   #34
Danoc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reach9 View Post
what an incorrect statement. Every competitive company's goal is to maximize profits. Their goal is to make money.
Jonny is trying to make it look like Apple is different than any other company, when in it's definition it's the same as Samsung, RIM, Google etc, ... their goal is to make money.
Apple makes great products to get money, but money is still the main driving force.

Also, if a two-toned iPhone is their 'best work yet'.. then i'm unpleasantly surprised.
Not necessarily. If you look at Jobs's private life, he was a modest CEO. No extravagant vacations, no huge mansion, ... He was dedicated to his job and his products.

Then of course as a corporate, to survive in this world, they have to master the finance. Operations, margins, etc. ... They built the Apple model on high margin versus high volume. Pretty successful. Cherry on the sunday, they got high volumes with the iproducts generation.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:28 PM   #35
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Profit, by definition, means you've added value to the world that wasn't there before. People are willing to spend a lot of money on Apple products because they feel, ultimately, what they're able to do with the product is worth far more than what they spent on it. Profit is not bad - it's a sign that Apple is serving and enhancing people's lives and businesses in ways that few other companies can. Profit and making great products go hand in hand.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:28 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by pesos View Post
As are many of the designers at Sony, Samsung, etc. Are you saying THEY are any different than Ives? Or is the difference in the other departments?

I am happy to pay for quality, and I do, but to try and say that Apple has not traditionally milked the crap out of its consumers is blind fanboi-ism. Although it's exactly that that allowed Apple to charge $80 for a keyboard because it was see-through plastic! :-)
Sure, there are good people at all sorts of companies making great products because they want to make great products. That said, I think Apple does have a rare culture - a culture that doesn't talk about money but rather about changing the world. This is what Jobs was all about and why Apple does stuff that other companies don't.

You can believe what you like but I tend to avoid discourse with people who accuse anyone who's opinion differs from there's of "blind fanboi-ism". It's aggressive and disrespectful and tends to be a sign of intellectual cowardice.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:30 PM   #37
Rennir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zunjine View Post
I disagree with the detail of that post. Sure, Apple is just a company and making a profit is always part of that, but that doesn't mean that the underlying purpose, the thing that drives them each and every day, isn't exactly what Ive says.

Let's just put it this way, Ive is a massively wealthy man, as are most of those who run the company. You think they go in and work hard every day to the money? That doesn't make sense.
I guess you're going to make this about semantics. I'll be happy to oblige. Apple's number one goal is to make money. If Ive is only talking about himself in the quote, or a select number of people, and just used an incorrect pronoun, then I will be happy to agree. There's no doubt in my mind that Ive loves his job and money perhaps isn't the top priority for him.

But if he's making statement about Apple as a corporation, well then he is wrong. No matter how you try to spin it, the number one priority of any for-profit company is, at the end of the day, profit. They may have different ways of achieving that profit, such as selling hardware, software, search, information, etc. But their first priority is all the same.


Quote:
Originally Posted by c.s. View Post
Profit, by definition, means you've added value to the world that wasn't there before. People are willing to spend a lot of money on Apple products because they feel, ultimately, what they're able to do with the product is worth far more than what they spent on it. Profit is not bad - it's a sign that Apple is serving and enhancing people's lives and businesses in ways that few other companies can. Profit and making great products go hand in hand.
It's not as simple as that though. How much of that feeling is influenced by marketing and peer pressure? How much of that profit is generated by kids begging their parents for iPhones? If you're truly going to hold Apple to such a high expectation, then you should be sorely disappointed in the company based on what multiple news sources have reported in the past.

Last edited by Rennir; Jul 30, 2012 at 03:36 PM.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:31 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by pesos View Post
As are many of the designers at Sony, Samsung, etc. Are you saying THEY are any different than Ives? Or is the difference in the other departments?

I am happy to pay for quality, and I do, but to try and say that Apple has not traditionally milked the crap out of its consumers is blind fanboi-ism. Although it's exactly that that allowed Apple to charge $80 for a keyboard because it was see-through plastic! :-)
: Really?
Are you talking of trade-offs, Apple risks more than any other tech companies, so they fail the most.

: About the fanboi-ism again.
: Indeed! Sad.

If Apple really want to make money, they would have made what the majority will be able to afford. If they charge as you stated - huge amount for what anyone can buy cheaper, its defies any presumption of wanting to make money as you stated.

: Indeed eating his/her own tail.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:32 PM   #39
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Many of you guys have said it well and I'll only reiterate what you have said.

Apple's first goal is to make great products. With these great products, profit will follow.

It's saddening to read all of those who say that Apple is only in it for the money. Apple is one of the few companies that I can think of that doesn't focus on profit first when designing a product, unlike other companies. They focus on making sure that their products will be something that consumers will enjoy using rather than coming out with something cheap only with a good profit margin at its core.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:33 PM   #40
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Even in a thread about Ive, there are always people who call him 'Ives'.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:34 PM   #41
jmggs
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Hypocrite. That why they offer:

- No Proper software updates to old and very capable devices
- Planed obsolesce for example EFI32 on 64bit hardware.
- No more Servers and Professional tools
- And they say that Apple is green, lol
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:38 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Rennir View Post
I guess you're going to make this about semantics. I'll be happy to oblige. Apple's number one goal is to make money. If Ives is only talking about himself in the quote, or a select number of people, and just used an incorrect pronoun, then I will be happy to agree. There's no doubt in my mind that Ives loves his job and money perhaps isn't the top priority for him.

But if he's making statement about Apple as a corporation, well then he is wrong. No matter how you try to spin it, the number one priority of any for-profit company is, at the end of the day, profit. They may have different ways of achieving that profit, such as selling hardware, software, search, information, etc. But their first priority is all the same.
You want semantics? Definition: The branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning.

Yep, I want to make this about meaning. So shoot me.

Profit is a result of what you do. It isn't what you do. You must live in a very sad, depressing little world. I hope you find your way out one day.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rennir View Post
It's not as simple as that though. How much of that feeling is influenced by marketing and peer pressure? How much of that profit is generated by kids begging their parents for iPhones? If you're truly going to hold Apple to such a high expectation, then you should be sorely disappointed in the company based on what multiple news sources have reported in the past.
Are you trying to argue that there are right and wrong things to consider valuable? Value is a personal choice - you don't get to tell people what they should and shouldn't value.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:38 PM   #43
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Apple has ALWAYS (well, at least since the late 90s) been driven by DESIGN, not by PROFIT - it's clear that Ive was referring to the fact that it's not about designing the cheapest crap at the lowest cost to sell it at high margin...it's about designing the BEST possible device and THEN reap the rewards.

If you can't understand this basic principle, you can't understand why Apple is successful nowadays.
Always? Is that the reason why ALL Apple products are made in mainland China? In sweatshops? And NOT in the USA? And is that the reason they have a net profit margin of 28% and have amassed 100 billion US$ in cash? Because they are NOT driven by profit? Well, call me a potato but that doesn't add up, does it?
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:40 PM   #44
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So that Podcasts app... is that focused on great product or profits?
Because Apple makes profits off podcasts???
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:41 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Reach9 View Post
what an incorrect statement. Every competitive company's goal is to maximize profits. Their goal is to make money.
Jonny is trying to make it look like Apple is different than any other company, when in it's definition it's the same as Samsung, RIM, Google etc, ... their goal is to make money.
Apple makes great products to get money, but money is still the main driving force.

Also, if a two-toned iPhone is their 'best work yet'.. then i'm unpleasantly surprised.
This post isn't too far off. Ivy says:

Quote:
"We are really pleased with our revenues but our goal isn't to make money. It sounds a little flippant, but it's the truth. Our goal and what makes us excited is to make great products. If we are successful people will like them and if we are operationally competent, we will make money," he said.
So you guys design a piece of 25 cent plastic, call it a bumper for your iPhone, and then charge $29 for it. Yeah, it sure sounds like it's all about design. You neglect adding a memory card slot to your devices to force users to pay extra for storage. You slap a cover on an iPad that costs $12 to make but charge $49. Apple makes great products, but they are in the business of emptying your pockets.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:41 PM   #46
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Obviously he needs to make a living. And of course, we all know he's paid very well. But you can tell that it's true, that he is not doing it for the money.

If their goal was purely profit, then the first thing they would have in mind is how can we sell as many of X as possible.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:41 PM   #47
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He's full of crap since apple makes a ton of money from selling 32gb and 64gb iPhones. That is pure profiteering. There is no need to charge so much for increased storage other than profit and profit alone
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:41 PM   #48
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As are many of the designers at Sony, Samsung, etc. Are you saying THEY are any different than Ives? Or is the difference in the other departments?
The difference IS in the company and how it's run and modeled.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:42 PM   #49
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I don't buy it, the new iPhone design is pretty much complicated and asymmetrical, looks cheap.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 03:44 PM   #50
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Counter MBA philosophy

Not sure how any of you can doubt this is indeed how Apple works.

Of course they try to get the best prices on manufacturing and use economies of scale to further drive down prices; of course they try to out compete on price when they can --- the iPad is actually cheaper than comparable quality Android tablets; of course they go for as healthy a profit margin as they can command, etc. And they like to outsource manufacturer to China, where the very state subsidizes costs in order to keep all costs low for U.S. companies. Yes, Apple likes making money, and I can only imagine Apple has a few very smart MBAs in the supply chain.

...but what makes Apple different than other companies is the focus on creating a really great product that first and foremost, people want to buy! It must be eye catching and stand out from the crowd; it must be useful; it must be simple; it must be fun; it must exude quality; and when you put all of this together, it must be a product that is a status symbol that both rich and people of lesser means are willing -- eager!! -- to purchase. No one has ever done all of this by solely focusing on lowering labor costs and cost cutting, the MBA way.

Apple is very smart about their supply chain but they are just as smart not to skimp on creating highly usable, attractive and useful products. In this sense, Apple is the anti-MBA company in that they do not follow the MBA rulebook of spending as little as possible on creating great products (almost no one invests in usability anymore) or even trying to do genuine innovation (easier to wait and copy someone else). Under the MBAs, most companies push first for lower costs (labor, materials, services) and creating products people wants to buy a distant second.

And though manufacturing is all in China, don't be surprised if Apple will end up with as many U.S. employees as IBM or HP in a few years as these latter companies are working so hard to to shed as many American/Western employees as they can, being led by MBAs who only understand cost cutting and the 'bottom line' but have no idea how to make quality products someone wants to buy.

Steve Jobs was NOT a MBA; if he had been, Apple would be a mediocrity at best like so many MBA-led U.S. companies.
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