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Old Aug 21, 2012, 11:10 PM   #1
saintforlife
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Will the iPad Mini not fragment the iOS ecosystem?

No using the same resolution as the iPad 2 will not help because all the onscreen elements will become smaller due to the smaller 7.85" screen on the Mini. I wonder what Apple plans to get around that. I they do end up introducing a new resolution, I will be mighty pissed because they are using that fragmentation excuse to push the comical and ridiculous looking longPhone 5 with 16:9 apect ratio down our throats when they could have made the phone wider to keep a more palatable 4:3 ratio.
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Old Aug 21, 2012, 11:33 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by saintforlife View Post
No using the same resolution as the iPad 2 will not help because all the onscreen elements will become smaller due to the smaller 7.85" screen on the Mini. I wonder what Apple plans to get around that. I they do end up introducing a new resolution, I will be mighty pissed because they are using that fragmentation excuse to push the comical and ridiculous looking longPhone 5 with 16:9 apect ratio down our throats when they could have made the phone wider to keep a more palatable 4:3 ratio.
The resolution will be the same as the iPad 2. Yes the elements will be smaller but so long as a 44 x 44 point touch area exist for tappable areas of the UI it's not a problem.

No fragmentation
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 04:47 AM   #3
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No. Same resolution as the iPad and iPad 2.
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 06:29 AM   #4
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If the resolution stays the same and the area shrinks by 30% it will be unusable for anyone with adult hands...
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 06:36 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by thewitt View Post
If the resolution stays the same and the area shrinks by 30% it will be unusable for anyone with adult hands...
The touch targets will be the same size as the iPhone. Perfectly usable for adult hands.
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 09:45 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by nuckinfutz View Post
No fragmentation
If the next thing is a mini iPad and with the same resolution as the 9.7" iPad, of course it would be introducing problems and fragmentations.

Even if an iPad app could be usable at 65% on the mini iPad, inevitably some apps would require work from developers to ensure support of the 2 sizes. At the exact same resolution, they'd have to adapt to the smaller screen, maybe sometimes using bigger font size or bitmaps elements because it now becomes too small. etc. And doing so, apps would then appear with too big elements on the larger iPad. Or you'd have to be able to create apps UI for each iPad size separatly. That's all called fragmentation.

Problems like that wouldnt' be avoided. App developpers wouldn't do like before when they only had 1 size of screen targeted.

It's illusional to believe you can do the same thing with a smaller screen. Adaptation from both user and devs would be necessary.

Hence, an hypothesis like this can adress partly the problem of usability, maintaining the same pixel density as the 9.7" iPad (it can also be done with a screen with different pixel density, but easier to deal with size of elements with only one pixel density). Now, that's still introducing fragmentation, but that can't be avoided if you introduce a second size of tablet.
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 09:56 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chleuasme View Post
If the next thing is a mini iPad and with the same resolution as the 9.7" iPad, of course it would be introducing problems and fragmentations.

Even if an iPad app could be usable at 65% on the mini iPad, inevitably some apps would require work from developers to ensure support of the 2 sizes. At the exact same resolution, they'd have to adapt to the smaller screen, maybe sometimes using bigger font size or bitmaps elements because it now becomes too small. etc. And doing so, apps would then appear with too big elements on the larger iPad. Or you'd have to be able to create apps UI for each iPad size separatly. That's all called fragmentation.

Problems like that wouldnt' be avoided. App developpers wouldn't do like before when they only had 1 size of screen targeted.

It's illusional to believe you can do the same thing with a smaller screen. Adaptation from both user and devs would be necessary.

Hence, an hypothesis like this can adress partly the problem of usability, maintaining the same pixel density as the 9.7" iPad (it can also be done with a screen with different pixel density, but easier to deal with size of elements with only one pixel density). Now, that's still introducing fragmentation, but that can't be avoided if you introduce a second size of tablet.
The two resolutions would be 2048-by-1536(new iPad) and 1024-768 (ipad 1,2 and new mini)

Developpers would only have to program apps once and adjust the scaling accordingly. No different then what is being done now.
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 10:14 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by AppleDApp View Post
The two resolutions would be 2048-by-1536(new iPad) and 1024-768 (ipad 1,2 and new mini)

Developpers would only have to program apps once and adjust the scaling accordingly. No different then what is being done now.
read again slowly my post (+ link) and tell me how your post bring an answer
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 10:17 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chleuasme View Post
read again slowly my post (+ link) and tell me how your post bring an answer
if the resolution is the same as the first and second generation iPad how does this create fragmentation?
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 10:21 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleDApp View Post
if the resolution is the same as the first and second generation iPad how does this create fragmentation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chleuasme View Post
read again slowly my post (+ link)

The same resolution makes it instantly possible to run apps.
Of course.

Now, they are then displayed at 65% of their physical size. This can't happen flawlessly in most cases, usability would suffer.
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 10:24 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Chundles View Post
The touch targets will be the same size as the iPhone. Perfectly usable for adult hands.
Um, no they won't. They will be 30% smaller.....
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 10:28 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by chleuasme View Post
The same resolution makes it instantly possible to run apps.
Of course.

Now, they are then displayed at 65% of their physical size. This can't happen flawlessly in most cases, usability would suffer.
They will if the developer followed the interface guidelines, because a 7.85" iPad would match the pixel density of an iPhone 3GS.
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 10:32 AM   #13
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They will if the developer followed the interface guidelines, because a 7.85" iPad would match the pixel density of an iPhone 3GS.
yes I know that, I say it in my link.
I don't think it would give good results. I don't think you can expect to do the same thing with a smaller screen.
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 10:33 AM   #14
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Perhpas the ipad mini will ahve the same resolutuion of a retina iphone, or perhasp the same resolution ofthe first ipad? Its already enough for most of its pratial uses in work enviroments, I belive this will be more professional orientated then consumer, regular people will preefer an iPad, but an iPad mini can find its right palce in hospitals, companies, airplanes etc
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 12:55 PM   #15
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Um, no they won't. They will be 30% smaller.....
He said iPhone, not iPad. So technically, wouldn't they be "bigger" than an iPhone?
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 02:26 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleDApp View Post
The two resolutions would be 2048-by-1536(new iPad) and 1024-768 (ipad 1,2 and new mini)

Developpers would only have to program apps once and adjust the scaling accordingly. No different then what is being done now.
I don't think you understand how resolutions and onscreen elements work. If you squeeze the 1024x768 resolution on to a 7.85" iPad mini screen, everything on the screen - buttons, icons, keyboard keys etc will be smaller physically making it much harder to tap on them. So this is a problem that needs to be addressed, the solution to which might include new screen resolution resulting in 'fragmentation'.
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 02:44 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by saintforlife View Post
I don't think you understand how resolutions and onscreen elements work. If you squeeze the 1024x768 resolution on to a 7.85" iPad mini screen, everything on the screen - buttons, icons, keyboard keys etc will be smaller physically making it much harder to tap on them. So this is a problem that needs to be addressed, the solution to which might include new screen resolution resulting in 'fragmentation'.
So how is it that there currently fragmentation with the current resolutions?
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 03:28 PM   #18
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Yes a smaller screen could be less user friendly. In the same way the iPod Nano isn't as ergonomically friendly as the iPod Classic. Apple needs to plug a whole in the market to fight off budget Android tablets.
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 03:35 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chleuasme View Post
If the next thing is a mini iPad and with the same resolution as the 9.7" iPad, of course it would be introducing problems and fragmentations.

Even if an iPad app could be usable at 65% on the mini iPad, inevitably some apps would require work from developers to ensure support of the 2 sizes. At the exact same resolution, they'd have to adapt to the smaller screen, maybe sometimes using bigger font size or bitmaps elements because it now becomes too small. etc. And doing so, apps would then appear with too big elements on the larger iPad. Or you'd have to be able to create apps UI for each iPad size separatly. That's all called fragmentation.

Problems like that wouldnt' be avoided. App developpers wouldn't do like before when they only had 1 size of screen targeted.

It's illusional to believe you can do the same thing with a smaller screen. Adaptation from both user and devs would be necessary.

Hence, an hypothesis like this can adress partly the problem of usability, maintaining the same pixel density as the 9.7" iPad (it can also be done with a screen with different pixel density, but easier to deal with size of elements with only one pixel density). Now, that's still introducing fragmentation, but that can't be avoided if you introduce a second size of tablet.
You just wrote 5 paragraphs and made absolutely no sense

Fragmentation within the context of application development means dealing with multiple resolutions or aspect ratio. It does not deal with tap targets. The iPad has plenty of space. The width between UI elements is not an issue and more developers are leveraging gestures to avoid having to put too many tappable items on the screen.

You have not sufficiently proven that fragmentation is the likely outcome of an iPad mini to me and I suspect i'm not alone.

iPad mini = same resolution, same aspect ratio slightly smaller (what only about 20%)

No fragmentation. The supposition that the iPad mini would cause fragmentation is asinine.
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 06:08 PM   #20
chleuasme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckinfutz View Post
You just wrote 5 paragraphs and made absolutely no sense

Fragmentation within the context of application development means dealing with multiple resolutions or aspect ratio. It does not deal with tap targets. The iPad has plenty of space. The width between UI elements is not an issue and more developers are leveraging gestures to avoid having to put too many tappable items on the screen.

You have not sufficiently proven that fragmentation is the likely outcome of an iPad mini to me and I suspect i'm not alone.

iPad mini = same resolution, same aspect ratio slightly smaller (what only about 20%)

No fragmentation. The supposition that the iPad mini would cause fragmentation is asinine.
no sense...

You keep speaking about resolution but forget about pixel density.

So your point is, as soon as the resolution is the same, it's no problem for developers to make app usable?
Ok.
Sharp has 498 ppi screens.
A 1024x768 screen at that pixel density would be 2.57".
You see where I go ?..

No, of course, you have to take care of the real size of elements on screen, too.
And I'm not simply talking only about the size of tap targets (that's actually used as the super-reason to consider the 7.85" screen at same res will work).

About 20 % smaller on each dimension, about 65% the original iPad screen surface.
Take your favorite text editor, and compare some text on your desktop/laptop screen at 10 pts and at 8 pts ... painless? Same problem happens with any bitmap/icon/button on screen.
20% makes a difference.

So, as I was saying before, devs would have to adapt to the 2 dimensions their apps would be rendered and used. Their users would tell them if their app sucks on the mini iPad, and they'd update it accordingly.

Of course that would not be transparent to devs/users.
Of course this is fragmentation for app development.

If that wasn't why then would Apple have made 9.7" iPad if everything worked as well at 7.85" and same things could be done? Why not kill the 9.7" model?

Last edited by chleuasme; Aug 22, 2012 at 06:14 PM.
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 06:10 PM   #21
nuckinfutz
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Originally Posted by chleuasme View Post
no sense...

You keep speaking about resolution but forget about pixel density.

So your point is, as soon as the resolution is the same, it's no problem for developers to make app usable?
Ok.
Sharp has 498 ppi screens.
A 1024x768 screen at that pixel density would be 2.57".
You see where I go ?..

No, of course, you have to take care of the real size of elements on screen, too.
And I'm not simply talking only about tap target size (that's actually used as the super-reason to consider the 7.85" screen at same res will work).

About 20 % smaller on each dimension, about 65% the original iPad screen surface.
Take your favorite text editor, and compare some text on your desktop/laptop screen at 15 pts and at 12 pts ... painless? Same probelm happens with any bitmap/icon on screen.
20% makes a difference.

So, as I was saying before, devs would have to adapt to the 2 dimensions their apps would be rendered and used. Their users would tell them if their app sucks on the mini iPad, and they'd update it accordingly.

Of course that would not be transparent to users.
Of course this is fragmentation.
Pixel density is the same 163 PPI as the iPhone/iPod Touch

Gruber explains it better than I can here

http://daringfireball.net/2012/08/ip...even_througher

Sure the potential for fragmentation exists but it appears that Apple has taken steps to make the
transition easy for developers. Most should not have to do any modifications for their apps.
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 06:21 PM   #22
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Sorry, was editing while you were answering

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckinfutz View Post
Pixel density is the same 163 PPI as the iPhone/iPod Touch

Gruber explains it better than I can
You are answering me but you didn't read me if you say that. This is pointless to tell me that, I already talked about it. Read better

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckinfutz View Post
Sure the potential for fragmentation exists
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckinfutz View Post
No fragmentation. The supposition that the iPad mini would cause fragmentation is asinine.
What's the word ... retracting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckinfutz View Post
it appears that Apple has taken steps to make the transition easy for developers. Most should not have to do any modifications for their apps.
What are you now talking about?
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 06:28 PM   #23
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It's simple ..there is no retracting here.



The iPad's native resolution started out in a 4:3 aspect ration with 163 ppi. This was the same ppi as the iPhone and iPod Touch until Retina displays came.

Now we've got an iPad mini coming that is likely to use the same 163 ppi and 4:3 aspect ratio.

It will be smaller meaning UI elements shrink but we're talking about roughly 20% or so here.

Applications will run unmodified.

There is no fragmentation at any level if Apple chooses the same ppi and aspect ratio.

Why this thread was even created is a mystery.
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 06:39 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by chleuasme View Post
no sense...

You keep speaking about resolution but forget about pixel density.

So your point is, as soon as the resolution is the same, it's no problem for developers to make app usable?
Ok.
Sharp has 498 ppi screens.
A 1024x768 screen at that pixel density would be 2.57".
You see where I go ?..

No, of course, you have to take care of the real size of elements on screen, too.
And I'm not simply talking only about the size of tap targets (that's actually used as the super-reason to consider the 7.85" screen at same res will work).

About 20 % smaller on each dimension, about 65% the original iPad screen surface.
Take your favorite text editor, and compare some text on your desktop/laptop screen at 10 pts and at 8 pts ... painless? Same problem happens with any bitmap/icon/button on screen.
20% makes a difference.

So, as I was saying before, devs would have to adapt to the 2 dimensions their apps would be rendered and used. Their users would tell them if their app sucks on the mini iPad, and they'd update it accordingly.

Of course that would not be transparent to devs/users.
Of course this is fragmentation for app development.

If that wasn't why then would Apple have made 9.7" iPad if everything worked as well at 7.85" and same things could be done? Why not kill the 9.7" model?
You're making it more complicated that it needs to be.

Anyone can easily scale down any current iPad screen to 7.85" and see perfectly how it will look. Give me an example of an app that's a problem.

Anyone can also easily see how a current iPad app works with a smaller than recommended touch target size. AppShopper is a free app that anyone can download: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/appsh...387037496?mt=8
The touch targets in the menu on the left side (in landscape mode) are 0.22" high. That's smaller than 0.33' targets would be scaled to mini size - 0.27". I uses that app pretty much every day, and have absolutely no problem with it.

.... so what is it that you're saying?
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Old Aug 22, 2012, 06:42 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by nuckinfutz View Post
It will be smaller meaning UI elements shrink but we're talking about roughly 20% or so here.

Applications will run unmodified.

There is no fragmentation at any level if Apple chooses the same ppi and aspect ratio.
You are not answering to the points i make since my first post. Still repeating the same things like a mantra. No contradiction.

Yes, any app would render pixel-to-pixel on any screen at the same resolution. Obviously.
Yes, using 163 ppi screens make iOS-wide 44 px minimal tap target at the Apple-defined minimal acceptable physical size, just like on iPhone, obviously, it's the same pixel density.

BUT

Every iPad app was written for a 9.7" screen. Devs didn't use too small font size if it was not readable. They didn't make their icons too small if un-readable. The quantity of datas/space available was balanced with the size they appear on screen and the interface elements. etc.
If their now fine-tuned apps are shrinkend on a 7.85" screen, problems will appear. Their apps will not be as usable, in most cases. Users will let them now.
They will have to deal with the fact their apps have to be rendered on a screen 19% smaller or 23% larger, depending which iPad size is taken as reference.
Their next app version would have to be modified, and either functionality, or one or the other iPad size could suffer from that.
How can you expect to display as much data and use/interact with/modify them on a screen with 35% less surface?


And you are contradicting yourself when saying Apple would be using same ppi. You meant resolution, be clear



Quote:
Originally Posted by knucklehead View Post
The touch targets in the menu on the left side (in landscape mode) are 0.22" high.
That's just the bad example to give, if you only want to talk about size of tap targets.
On a 7.85" screen, that would then be 0.18". That's about 2/3 the size of an iPhone 44 px elt.

Last edited by chleuasme; Aug 22, 2012 at 06:56 PM.
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