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Old Aug 24, 2012, 06:28 AM   #26
avro707
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Yeah I think you might be right there

Even if he does loose his titles it doesn't stop him from being an amazing cyclist and an inspirational figure.
Even if he was involved in doping, I wonder just how many people were encouraged to go and buy a decent bicycle and get into cycling because of people like Lance Armstrong?

Regardless of what happens, that won't change. Others like David Millar have faced suspension for similar things and they've managed to survive after it.

Millar is probably the one that inspired me to take up the sport - after I watched a program on the Slipstream team. I thought, cycling looks like fun, I might give it a go. I haven't looked back.

So while it might be a bad time for Armstrong, he'll eventually right the ship and get his brand back in order.
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 06:31 AM   #27
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One should add that he's about to lose all his titles (Tour de France at least). And about time, I've to add. Didn't like him, and don't like all the others. They pretty much ****** up these sports for me (yes, I didn't watch any olympic games in years, too) and for all the other athletes doing a fair job.
So all along while he was winning you were automatically sure he was doping? Your statement sounds bitter for some reason.

It is hard to go against 10 supposed witnesses that are willing to testify against him but he passed all of the drug tests so the evidence seems thin if you exclude the 10 supposed witnesses. I'm not sure who the 38 are that were mentioned here, I haven't seen that number pop up yet.

I guess if he wants to protect his brand and just be done then this is the way. Fact is, his statement reads as though he has a lot to say about nothing.
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 06:32 AM   #28
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As far as I understand, the Tour de France board are not in agreement with the USADA (the ones going after him). It doesn't mean he will lose his titles or that he is admitting to doping. It means that after fighting it for years, and still not being conclusively proved to have doped, he is sick of fighting it.
I stopped following these 'processes' years ago, but that's what the media writes here in Germany. It would be a sick joke that maybe Ulrich would add up a titel, though. They're all messed up. After following 6-7 processes all happened to be a farce from beginning to the end, I just lost interest - and these pro-sports died pretty much for me. Now it's just soccer and well, I'm sure they dope as almost everybody else is doing. 16yo child swimming as fast as a lighning bolt, yeah why not? You need proof, maybe you can get it in 10-20 years..they are protected by big money and interests. How many asthmatics do pro cycling..almost all of them?
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 06:43 AM   #29
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16yo child swimming as fast as a lighning bolt, yeah why not?
What you talkin about? That Chinese swimmer?
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 07:46 AM   #30
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38? I knew of 10. Can you provide a source?
38 dubious samples (B samples) from Armstrong's comeback from around 2008:

Additionally, USADA is reported to have acquired data from 38 of Armstrong's blood samples from his comeback years, which it alleges demonstrates manipulation by blood doping, as well as 2001 Tour de Suisse doping control data that indicated EPO use.

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/a...charges-35040/
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 08:02 AM   #31
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Was wrong earlier when I said he would avoid the evidence being made public.

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Originally Posted by BBC
USADA chief executive Travis Tygart also says the agency's evidence against Armstrong will be made public "at the right time".
Looks like the dirt is coming out anyway, but he will avoid prosecution like this.
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 08:22 AM   #32
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I was shocked and disappointing when I heard the news last night. In one way I wish he would have fought tooth and nail, but after reading his statement I understand where he is coming from. I don't know if any one here has, but I watched EVERY stage of every tour that he won. Charges and allegations aside, he is one helluva athlete.

It's going to take time, but now maybe everyone can leave him alone and let him do as he was and raise money for cancer.
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 08:26 AM   #33
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I was shocked and disappointing when I heard the news last night. In one way I wish he would have fought tooth and nail, but after reading his statement I understand where he is coming from. I don't know if any one here has, but I watched EVERY stage of every tour that he won. Charges and allegations aside, he is one helluva athlete.
All tour riders are great athletes. We simply put Lance among them, not above them now.
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 08:30 AM   #34
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So all along while he was winning you were automatically sure he was doping? Your statement sounds bitter for some reason.
No, why should I ? I 'retired' from watching these things long before he got that kind of superman.

Is there anybody who would honestly be surprised if he's another doper? Ah, no of course, there is no legal way to call him like that anymore.

And yes all that is bitter, not because people start to do cycling themselves (don't know if in a healthy way or not) but because doping did officially became part of the game, accepted/ignored by the vast majority. As long as we can have some national heroes and nobody finds out it's ok.
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 08:45 AM   #35
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All tour riders are great athletes. We simply put Lance among them, not above them now.
Very true, but knowing what we know now about all those that have been proven guilty of doping, he still dominated all those riders.
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 09:02 AM   #36
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Cycling isn't rife with doping. Some of the professional riders might be doing that, but the millions of enthusiasts around the world, the so called weekend warriors aren't doping.

I'm certainly not - and it's outrageous to tar the entire sport because of the actions of a few.
LOL, nobody is including you in that group.
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 09:06 AM   #37
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I think the general public moved on from Lance Armstrong a long time ago
Most of them don't care one way or the other now whether he loses titles, was guilty or anything
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 09:15 AM   #38
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stuff
Some of the things you say are a bit worrying. Notice you dodged my question earlier about the girl swimming faster than the lightning bolt. Did you avoid the question because you knew it was a stupid thing to say?
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 09:23 AM   #39
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Some of the things you say are a bit worrying. Notice you dodged my question earlier about the girl swimming faster than the lightning bolt. Did you avoid the question because you knew it was a stupid thing to say?
Of course I ment that chinese girl. What is worrying? That I think most pro athletes (all those where there's big money in the game not those niches nobody is interested in of course) are doping? And yes, I think that Phelps, Bolt and who not are all the same..of course they are great athletes, but doping is not just some private stuff that doesn't affect other people. It is the final consequence of the competion without boundaries and killed the initial aspect of sports - i'm not a cynic so I stopped watching these 'games'.

Last edited by twietee; Aug 24, 2012 at 09:42 AM.
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 09:25 AM   #40
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Of course I ment that girl. What is worrying? That I think most pro athletes (all those where there's money in the game not those niches nobody is interested of course) are doping?
You didn't say what was wrong with that girl. SO what was wrong with her? Why bring her up.
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 09:53 AM   #41
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You didn't say what was wrong with that girl. SO what was wrong with her? Why bring her up.
I can take it back if you're happy - of course I have no proof. As I said I didn't watch olympic games. I just read in the newspaper that she swam much faster than some top athletes are running with their feet. I call that unnatural - and just because stuff like that seems to be getting the norm doesn't make it more plausible. Maybe she's not manipulated (not that all athletes would know about - we have some hinstory here in (east) Germany regarding coaches/medical staff systematically mixing stuff into the nutrition of young top-athletes...not so long ago, they all suffer for the rest of their lifes), but I would be surprised if not.

Edit: End of my rant(s)..back to life..err Lance!

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Old Aug 24, 2012, 10:10 AM   #42
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I can take it back if you're happy - of course I have no proof. As I said I didn't watch olympic games. I just read in the newspaper that she swam much faster than some top athletes are running with their feet. I call that unnatural - and just because stuff like that seems to be getting the norm doesn't make it more plausible. Maybe she's not manipulated (not that all athletes would know about - we have some hinstory here in (east) Germany regarding coaches/medical staff systematically mixing stuff into the nutrition of young top-athletes...not so long ago, they all suffer for the rest of their lifes), but I would be surprised if not.
You didn't even see the games? You read some commie-hate in the paper? No wonder your opinions seem a bit off-key.

What happened

Clown Yank coach says Ye Shiwen swam faster than Ryan Lochte in the final lap and suggests she was doping as a consequence. Everyone, including swimming professionals, other swimming coaches and the Olympic council came to her defense and said there was nothing irregular.

The facts

Ryan Lochte swam a slow final lap, slower than most of the other swimmers in his race. He won because of his high mid-laps pace.

Ryan Lochte swan 23 seconds faster than Ye Shiwen overall.

British swimmer Rebecca Adlington swam her final lap faster than both Lochte and Ye Shiwen in last year's World Championships (but she's not a commie so no problem).

The last time the WR was broken, it was broken by a bigger margin (Stephaie Rice) than what Ye Shiwen did.

Teenagers making good personal best improvements is usual in sport as they have have expected growth spurts. Stephanie Rice beat her PB by six seconds when she broke the WR. Ian Thorpe beat his PB by five seconds when he was a teenager.

------

Ye Shiwen tested clean 4 times in the year of the Olympics and all previous years. She also tested positive for her blood test taken just after her WR race at the Olympics.


How you somehow managed to miss all the facts and all the opinions of the professionals that matter either is explained by willful ignorance, or that the press where you are is so utterly filled with commie-hate you had to way to access the facts.
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 10:11 AM   #43
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Why should he have to deal with the USADA? Does it have a right to dictate who should hold the title to a French Cycling event? Does it have the right to do that after more than a dozen years? This is like saying that the Germans have the right to contest the result of the Falklands war (there are many citizens of German extraction in Argentina, so Germany has an interest in matter pertaining to Argentina, so it ought to be able to contest England winning, right?).

Clearly, this is not about cleaning up professional sport from performance enhancing drugs, otherwise the USADA would be going afte Bartolo Colon, or even Barry Bonds. No, this is about PR for the USADA. We no longer care about Armstrong and the Tour de France, so USADA, do your job and go after American sports, anything else is a waste of your limited resources.
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 10:13 AM   #44
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Why should he have to deal with the USADA? Does it have a right to dictate who should hold the title to a French Cycling event? Does it have the right to do that after more than a dozen years? This is like saying that the Germans have the right to contest the result of the Falklands war (there are many citizens of German extraction in Argentina, so Germany has an interest in matter pertaining to Argentina, so it ought to be able to contest England winning, right?).

Clearly, this is not about cleaning up professional sport from performance enhancing drugs, otherwise the USADA would be going afte Bartolo Colon, or even Barry Bonds. No, this is about PR for the USADA. We no longer care about Armstrong and the Tour de France, so USADA, do your job and go after American sports, anything else is a waste of your limited resources.
No, it's really not the same as telling the Germans they have the right to contest the result of the Falkland's War.
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 10:23 AM   #45
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You didn't even see the games? You read some commie-hate in the paper? No wonder your opinions seem a bit off-key.

What happened

Clown Yank coach says Ye Shiwen swam faster than Ryan Lochte in the final lap and suggests she was doping as a consequence. Everyone, including swimming professionals, other swimming coaches and the Olympic council came to her defense and said there was nothing irregular.

The facts

Ryan Lochte swam a slow final lap, slower than most of the other swimmers in his race. He won because of his high mid-laps pace.

Ryan Lochte swan 23 seconds faster than Ye Shiwen overall.

British swimmer Rebecca Adlington swam her final lap faster than both Lochte and Ye Shiwen in last year's World Championships (but she's not a commie so no problem).

The last time the WR was broken, it was broken by a bigger margin (Stephaie Rice) than what Ye Shiwen did.

Teenagers making good personal best improvements is usual in sport as they have have expected growth spurts. Stephanie Rice beat her PB by six seconds when she broke the WR. Ian Thorpe beat his PB by five seconds when he was a teenager.

------

Ye Shiwen tested clean 4 times in the year of the Olympics and all previous years. She also tested positive for her blood test taken just after her WR race at the Olympics.


How you somehow managed to miss all the facts and all the opinions of the professionals that matter either is explained by willful ignorance, or that the press where you are is so utterly filled with commie-hate you had to way to access the facts.
I have no clue what you write about and where to get a 'commie-hate' newspaper around here..and why I would buy it. Maybe we should agree to disagree, I am convinced in systematical doping happening in all the Top-Sports, that doesn't mean everybody does it, but that I just can't watch it anymore without becoming a cynic. That was the point I was coming from.

And that someone was tested x times unguilty means really nothing nowadays.
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 10:25 AM   #46
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I have no clue what you write about and where to get a 'commie-hate' newspaper around here..and why I would buy it. Maybe we should agree to disagree, I am convinced in systematical doping happening in all the Top-Sports, that doesn't mean everybody does it, but that I just can't watch it anymore without becoming a cynic. That was the point I was coming from.
No, you singled out a Chinese swimmer. When you explained why you chose her, you had no factual basis for that criticism.

When faced with the actual facts of her swim, you throw your hands up and say 'you have no clue' what I write about. You have a comprehension problem?
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 10:29 AM   #47
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No, you singled out a Chinese swimmer. When you explained why you chose her, you had no factual basis for that criticism.

When faced with the actual facts of her swim, you throw your hands up and say 'you have no clue' what I write about. You have a comprehension problem?
Hey! What's wrong with you? I did start with Lance. Then talked about the top-athletes (mentioned Jan Ullrich, Phelps, Bolt and that swimmer) in general - she happens to be one of them. I'm out here..you're a fan(atic)?
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 10:32 AM   #48
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I knew this guys was too good to be true

Just another druggy
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 10:33 AM   #49
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Hey! What's wrong with you? I did start with Lance. Then talked about the top-athletes (mentioned Jan Ullrich, Phelps, Bolt and that swimmer) in general - she happens to be one of them. I'm out here..you're a fan(atic)?
But you know nothing about the swimmer. You didn't even know her name.

When presented with actual facts of her and other swimmer's times you call me a 'fanatic'?

Bizarre.
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Old Aug 24, 2012, 10:45 AM   #50
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Some of the confusion around doping charges in cycling revolves around the fact that EPO (the most-often used PED) doesn't show up on drug screens the way cocaine or other "recreational" drugs do.

Erythropoietin (EPO) is produced naturally by the human body, and all humans therefore have it in their blood. To prove a doping charge, it has to appear in such high concentrations as to appear outside a certain range. Not just the "normal" range - but the range that is statistically possible for a highly trained endurance athlete.

Further confusing the issue is the fact that professional cyclists and their doctors have become highly skilled at masking the use of synthetic EPO. Not just chemical agents (most, but not all, of which are known to anti-doping agencies) but also through the use of medical techniques such as blood transfusions: The athlete receives a transfusion of his own "clean" blood before competition or a time when he is liable to be tested. This is why testing regimes typically allow for almost continual monitoring - and an athlete has to let doping agencies know where they will be.

None of this is to say Armstrong did, or did not, use performance-enhancing drugs. There certainly aren't any "smoking gun" samples. But there ARE people who are prepared, many years after the event, to testify that he did participate. What the motivation for these people to do so is far from clear, and it certainly is possible that they have been coerced into making false assertions in exchange for immunity from prosecution.

If this were a criminal matter, Armstrong would have the protections afforded by our Constitution. But its not. The USADA is a law unto itself. And, for whatever reason, it has decided to go after the most popular and successful cyclist in a generation. A man whose fight against cancer, and against the mountains and cobblestones of the European tour, has inspired millions of people.

A sad day for Lance Armstrong and for his millions of fans. But he certainly hasn't "lost" the Tour titles he won in my eyes. All the USADA has done has to extinguish - probably forever - my interest in the sport of professional cycling.
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