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Old Sep 15, 2012, 09:05 PM   #26
John.B
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Originally Posted by plumosa View Post
I would check out http://www.kenrockwell.com and look at his recommendations, esp. The Nikon dream team and the Nikon cheapskate list. There is a ton of info on that site but be sure to bookmark something that you find interesting because it's not very well organized and can be next to impossible to find it again.
I would never advise anyone to pay attention to anything Ken Rockwell has to say, unless I wanted to demonstrate examples of self promotion and invented controversy. There are far too many great photography resources out there to recommend a hack like that to anyone.
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Old Sep 15, 2012, 10:39 PM   #27
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Your move, Canon.
(seriously, I want a cheap Canon full-frame to fill the gap between the 7D and the 5D...)
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Old Sep 16, 2012, 12:08 AM   #28
plumosa
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Originally Posted by John.B View Post
I would never advise anyone to pay attention to anything Ken Rockwell has to say, unless I wanted to demonstrate examples of self promotion and invented controversy. There are far too many great photography resources out there to recommend a hack like that to anyone.

Oh yeah, all that "help out Ken Rockwell" stuff is super annoying, and I've never been impressed with his actual photography. On the other hand, if you've got another comprehensive resource on Nikon lenses I'm all ears. I'm not looking for just specs, and I don't just want a few lenses either.

Suggestions?
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Old Sep 16, 2012, 08:32 AM   #29
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As expected...differing opinions and each quite valuable.

Think I'm going to hold off on the D7000 for bit and wait for comprehensive reviews on the D600. It will also give me some time to save-up some hard earned cash and maybe a Christmas gift certificate or two or three.

Thank you!
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Old Sep 16, 2012, 08:50 AM   #30
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It limits your options to balance flash against ambient light. At best that forces you fire you speedlight at greater power, and that limits cycle times. At such a crucial point, too, right where you need it. And, lets face it, there is action you can stop at 1/250 that will be more fluid at 1/200.
I understand that on a technical level, I'm just saying that in my experience (at least for the types of flash photography I do), I'm using slower shutter speeds anyway.
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Originally Posted by John.B View Post
Strange, too, since every other current Nikon above the D5100 and D3200 will do 1/250 or better.
It's not strange at all: the shutter has to cover a larger area and thus, if the speed of the metal shutter blades stays constant (compared to the APS-C version of the same shutter), it takes longer to travel the whole distance, and thus the max flash sync shutter speed is slower.
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Old Sep 16, 2012, 02:36 PM   #31
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The D600 is looks like it may be the reason for me to make the switch from DX to FX.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 12:54 AM   #32
John.B
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Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I understand that on a technical level, I'm just saying that in my experience (at least for the types of flash photography I do), I'm using slower shutter speeds anyway.
This is really a tool for shooters who are balancing flash against ambient light.

OTOH, if flash is just used as a tool for indoor lighting then, sure, sync speeds probably don't matter. In that case, really any dSLR that supports 1/160 or even 1/125 will do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
It's not strange at all: the shutter has to cover a larger area and thus, if the speed of the metal shutter blades stays constant (compared to the APS-C version of the same shutter), it takes longer to travel the whole distance, and thus the max flash sync shutter speed is slower.
But Nikon is the dSLR company with a proven track record at supporting 1/250 sync speeds (and better). The D700 supported 1/250 for years. The D800/D800E both support it. The D7000 supports it. That's why these Nikons are so popular with the Strobist community. I see no reason that same shutter couldn't have gone into the full frame D600 except as a way to neuter that model, especially with the D700 discontinued.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 01:00 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by plumosa View Post
Oh yeah, all that "help out Ken Rockwell" stuff is super annoying, and I've never been impressed with his actual photography. On the other hand, if you've got another comprehensive resource on Nikon lenses I'm all ears. I'm not looking for just specs, and I don't just want a few lenses either.

Suggestions?
I suggest www.photozone.de
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 01:13 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by John.B View Post
This is really a tool for shooters who are balancing flash against ambient light.

OTOH, if flash is just used as a tool for indoor lighting then, sure, sync speeds probably don't matter. In that case, really any dSLR that supports 1/160 or even 1/125 will do.
I think you've misread my post: I do understand what balancing flash light and ambient light is, I do that quite a bit. I'm just saying for my applications, that is typically at night or in the late evening, the typical shutter speeds at typical ISOs (1600~3200) are 1/80 s~1/40 s (depending on the lens, the subject and the effect I'm going for). So what I am trying to say is whether the limit is at 1/200 s or 1/250 s doesn't matter much to me, because I rarely get close to 1/200 s when using my SB-600.
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Originally Posted by John.B View Post
But Nikon is the dSLR company with a proven track record at supporting 1/250 sync speeds (and better). The D700 supported 1/250 for years. The D800/D800E both support it. The D7000 supports it. That's why these Nikons are so popular with the Strobist community. I see no reason that same shutter couldn't have gone into the full frame D600 except as a way to neuter that model, especially with the D700 discontinued.
The D600's shutter shares many of the same specs as the D7000's shutter, and when you take into account that the shutter needs to traverse longer distances due to the difference in format, you arrive exactly at the max flash sync shutter speed: APS-C has a crop factor of 1.5x on Nikons which means that the sides are ~22 % longer (the square root of 1.5 is approximately 1.22). If you multiply 1/250 s by 1.22, you get roughly 1/204 s which is close enough to 1/200 s. That indicates that the D600 wasn't »neutered«, at least not in that respect.

So just assuming that the D600's shutter is a derivative of the D7000's shutter and taking the geometry into account explains why the max flash sync shutter speed is slower by that exact amount. You're right that with a different shutter (which is more expensive), you could achieve faster sync speeds, yes, but IMHO it's a trade-off that is worth it for most.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 12:22 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I think you've misread my post: I do understand what balancing flash light and ambient light is, I do that quite a bit. I'm just saying for my applications, that is typically at night or in the late evening, the typical shutter speeds at typical ISOs (1600~3200) are 1/80 s~1/40 s (depending on the lens, the subject and the effect I'm going for). So what I am trying to say is whether the limit is at 1/200 s or 1/250 s doesn't matter much to me, because I rarely get close to 1/200 s when using my SB-600.

The D600's shutter shares many of the same specs as the D7000's shutter, and when you take into account that the shutter needs to traverse longer distances due to the difference in format, you arrive exactly at the max flash sync shutter speed: APS-C has a crop factor of 1.5x on Nikons which means that the sides are ~22 % longer (the square root of 1.5 is approximately 1.22). If you multiply 1/250 s by 1.22, you get roughly 1/204 s which is close enough to 1/200 s. That indicates that the D600 wasn't »neutered«, at least not in that respect.

So just assuming that the D600's shutter is a derivative of the D7000's shutter and taking the geometry into account explains why the max flash sync shutter speed is slower by that exact amount. You're right that with a different shutter (which is more expensive), you could achieve faster sync speeds, yes, but IMHO it's a trade-off that is worth it for most.
Good points, Oreo.

Unfortunately, I guess as long as Canon keeps putting out lesser cameras (1/180 sync and 5DMkII-style autofocus, but, hey!, WiFi + GPS!) then Nikon can probably get away with the kind of specs we're seeing in the D600.

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Old Sep 18, 2012, 11:06 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plumosa View Post
Oh yeah, all that "help out Ken Rockwell" stuff is super annoying, and I've never been impressed with his actual photography. On the other hand, if you've got another comprehensive resource on Nikon lenses I'm all ears. I'm not looking for just specs, and I don't just want a few lenses either.

Suggestions?
http://www.bythom.com/nikon.htm
http://www.naturfotograf.com/lens_surv.html
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography...kkor/index.htm
http://www.photodo.com/
http://www.photozone.de/

Paul
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 09:39 PM   #37
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Reading up more the D600 uses the same AF system as the D7000 and that the focus points are close together/towards the center. Any ideas on this? This has me a little concerned.
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 09:51 PM   #38
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Reading up more the D600 uses the same AF system as the D7000 and that the focus points are close together/towards the center. Any ideas on this? This has me a little concerned.
No reason to be a worry wart: Nikon has adapted the AF module, and it has been upgraded compared to the D7000 (which has a very, very good AF, I know from first-hand experience), e. g. 7 of the 39 AF points work until an initial aperture of f/8 now.

Have a look at photos and judge for yourself: this is the Nikon D600's AF coverage (taken from photographyblog.com):

And this is the D7000's coverage (taken from dpreview):

Both look very similar to me: to me, it seems like the D7000 covers a slightly larger area, but it's not as significant as in the 5D Mark I and II where the AF module was grafted from a crop sensor dslr (also from dpreview):
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 11:43 PM   #39
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Ah the way that I see it is... Nikon did what they did to the D300 - made a full frame version (D700). The D600 is basically a full frame D7000. However it does share the same shutter speed as the D90. Which in hind sight, it really doesn't matter if the shutter is slower because (drum roll) its FULL FRAME lol

If you have more $$ get a D600 and 24-70mm. If you want to save money get a D7000 and 24-70mm. Either way you will be happy. Bundling these bodies with that lens you save $200.


I like that Gordon from cameralabs.com asked the Canon rep why didn't they put in stuff that the D600 has like dual cards, etc in a recent interview. I can't wait to see Gordon's reviews

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xez3iLe_eko
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Old Sep 19, 2012, 01:32 AM   #40
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My local camera store got a shipment in today. Come on Nikon wake up and make a camera comfortable to hold. I thought my D800 was bad....The D600 is even worse.
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Old Sep 19, 2012, 05:54 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
...

Have a look at photos and judge for yourself: this is the Nikon D600's AF coverage....
Both look very similar to me: to me, it seems like the D7000 covers a slightly larger area, but it's not as significant as in the 5D Mark I and II where the AF module was grafted from a crop sensor dslr (also from
Too me also the D7000 seems to cover more... The D600 seems like it needs another column of AF points The D800 seems similar to the D600 (taken from DP review) Maybe i'm just used to my 12 from my D90...
Thumb resize.
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Old Sep 20, 2012, 06:29 AM   #42
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Reviews are coming in now...

http://fotospekter.si/primerjava-med...so-vrednostih/ (site in german)

Gives a great impression of the output from the D600, seemingly better than the D700 in low light!

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Pub...ty/Comparisons

DxOMark puts the D600 behind the D800/E and a fair bit ahead of the Canon 5D Mark III

Thumb resize.
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Old Sep 20, 2012, 10:02 AM   #43
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There were always these phony excuses as to why full frame cameras cost so much. It was like people were soldering millions of pixels onto a chip by hand or something.

Knew it was just marketing all along.

Now the dam has broken and we can expect more and cheaper FF cameras.
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Old Sep 20, 2012, 02:00 PM   #44
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There were always these phony excuses as to why full frame cameras cost so much. It was like people were soldering millions of pixels onto a chip by hand or something.

Knew it was just marketing all along.

Now the dam has broken and we can expect more and cheaper FF cameras.
Um no, the cost has always been about the size of the sensor and the number of defects per wafer, leading to the number of sensors per wafer. Process defects have obviously come down- that makes it cheaper. APS-C sensors are denser, so it's not about pixels at all.

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Old Sep 20, 2012, 09:01 PM   #45
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There were always these phony excuses as to why full frame cameras cost so much. It was like people were soldering millions of pixels onto a chip by hand or something.

Knew it was just marketing all along.

Now the dam has broken and we can expect more and cheaper FF cameras.
Sorry, but you're wrong. Thom Hogan (look for the August 27th post) explains that The D600's list price is exactly what you'd expect from scaling up a D7000, and his math suggests that the price for full frame sensors has come down ~20 % (from $500 to $400). They're still ~10 times more expensive than the sensor for APS-C-sensor cameras ($40~$50 per sensor). He predicted the price (+- $100) way before the camera was released.
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Old Sep 21, 2012, 03:27 AM   #46
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**UPDATE**

D600 price cut by more than £300 from the initial listing.

http://nikonrumors.com/2012/09/20/ni...-germany.aspx/

that's a bit more like it...
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Old Sep 21, 2012, 05:51 AM   #47
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Getting there!!

I've seen prices hovering around £1500. Hopefully it keeps pushing down.
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Old Sep 21, 2012, 08:18 AM   #48
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Going the dark side at last

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Old Sep 21, 2012, 10:05 AM   #49
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I bought the Nikon D600 this morning 5.00am from Amazon (UK) for £1610.00, plus 28-300 lens. I've noticed the price has since gone up.
Amazon prices tend to fluctuate. A bad, or good thing, depending when you buy.

Digital Rev is listed at £1559, similar to a couple other stores.
http://www.digitalrev.com/product/ni...MTAwMTM2Mg_A_A

£1,600+ isn't a price I'm going to be buying one at right now. I will be getting the D600 though, that's settled I'm going to wait, since I have time to, for the price to go down more and settle and make my decision as the pricing develops. I can sit it out till end November if I have to.

Enjoy your D600, let us know how long it takes to ship and your personal experience with it
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Old Sep 21, 2012, 03:07 PM   #50
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