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Old Jan 19, 2013, 06:11 PM   #101
bonskovsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vastoholic View Post
That is not normal viewing distance!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus. Welcome to the ignore list. I can't deal with this anymore.

There's not enough face palms in the world for some of the logic around here.

This is what you've done and why you see pixels.

Thumb resize.
What? Why are you having such a fit!

The above is just a screenshot and only a screenshot. Nothing more.

But properly viewed on the iPhone 5 ITSELF, (the actual app) yes, that button is pixelated. The "retina concept" only works under certain conditions.

It's not like Apple made pixels disappear.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 06:18 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by bonskovsky View Post
What? Why are you having such a fit!

The above is just a screenshot and only a screenshot. Nothing more.

But properly viewed on the iPhone 5 ITSELF, (the actual app) yes, that button is pixelated. The "retina concept" only works under certain conditions.

It's not like Apple made pixels disappear.
I can't see any pixels on the iPhone 5.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 06:44 PM   #103
bonskovsky
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Now I'm curious. So I started taking a look at what the iPhone 5 can really do.

I went to RED's website just to see what they've got.

I started looking at the OZ trailer. Even though this is in HD, it's not as vivid as it should be.



It's relatively crisp though. As far as facial features but things like fire don't pop.



What's missing, why doesn't this look better?



If the retina display makes pixels invisible, then that should not be blurry. The gold mist should be vibrant and crispy. It's dull and blurry. I was really amazed by what BLU Ray can do. But not this.

Also, did you know that if you have pictures in the photo app, sliding through them or deleting them, you'll see it blurry and then go to regular resolution? Even something as simple as taking pictures of each of your home screens and then deleting some, they come up blurry.

I'm not going to say that the iPhone 5 isn't powerful, but I'm also not going to talk about it like it's the best of the best. The iPhone 5 is more of an ordinary phone than any other before it and Apple is falling behind.

Last edited by bonskovsky; Jan 19, 2013 at 06:56 PM.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 07:06 PM   #104
dmelgar
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Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking View Post
Disagree. This is classic Apple loyalist denial when they don't have something the competition has. You are missing 200,000 pixels on the iPhone 5, which causes display artifacts on 720p video. This is a significant amount of missing pixels.
I disagree with your disagreement.

This is a classic case of a manufacturer trying to say their product is better by taking some spec value well beyond where its useful. If X is good, then X++ must be lots better.

But there's usually a limit where you can tell. The whole idea of a retina display is that the resolution is higher than your eye can distinguish. Doesn't matter if you add millions more pixels, there comes a time when it just doesn't matter. The iPhone 5 is already beyond where it matters.

It's like with stereos. Amplifiers long ago could not do high notes. So the higher a frequency it could play the better. Human hearing is generally 20-20khz. Once amplifiers were able to do that, manufacturers didn't want to stop.
My amp can do 20-40khz, some even bragging about 80khz or more. It was absurd since it was much much higher than any human could possibly hear. Now everyone lists just to 20khz. Going beyond that is actually bad due to artifacts from digital music.

The bottom line is that the resolution of the iPhone 5 in the size display that it has, is plenty, and higher resolution in that size screen is not normally perceptible.

So don't worry about whether its HD or not, it looks great on the iPhone 5. And the iPhone 5 does a much better job being accurate to colors than some other displays (s3).

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by bonskovsky View Post
Now I'm curious. So I started taking a look at what the iPhone 5 can really do.

I went to RED's website just to see what they've got.

I started looking at the OZ trailer. Even though this is in HD, it's not as vivid as it should be.

Image

It's relatively crisp though. As far as facial features but things like fire don't pop.

Image

What's missing, why doesn't this look better?

Image

If the retina display makes pixels invisible, then that should not be blurry. The gold mist should be vibrant and crispy. It's dull and blurry. I was really amazed by what BLU Ray can do. But not this.

Also, did you know that if you have pictures in the photo app, sliding through them or deleting them, you'll see it blurry and then go to regular resolution? Even something as simple as taking pictures of each of your home screens and then deleting some, they come up blurry.

I'm not going to say that the iPhone 5 isn't powerful, but I'm also not going to talk about it like it's the best of the best. The iPhone 5 is more of an ordinary phone than any other before it and Apple is falling behind.
Depends on what is being played, how it was played etc. And you're taking a small screen and blowing it up in a bigger view in this forum.

Have no idea what you're talking about with blurry photos.
When you scroll through images, the initially look blurry because that's the fastest way to render them. It's a common jpg technique. It eventually gets drawn at full resolution.

Have no idea what you're saying about deleting home screen blurry pictures.

Sounds like an excuse to complain. Marketing has worked on you and you assume the grass is greener elsewhere.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 07:10 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by vastoholic View Post
Please show me these display artifacts. Because I don't see a difference in watching HQ on my phone as compared to HD on my computer screen. As noted earlier, HD is also just a marketing term, similar to Retina. It does have standard resolutions that were determined upon as being "HD" but they were meant for large screens at much further viewing distances.

I do not see a major difference in watching a movie in HD on my computer compared to that on my iPhone. I personally hate watching video's on my iPhone because I think it's too small anyway at 4". That's not why I bought an iPhone. All these screen specs are useless to me. Text is the only thing I care about being clear and they've got that covered pretty much.
Ok i will explain this for you, if you watch a 720p video on a screen that is not that exact resolution the video quality is decreased at it has to be either down or upscaled. This is why people like to watch stuff at native resolution.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by apfeljonas View Post
The funny part is, the iPhone 5 has HIGHER PPI than the S3... fandroids
Its not about ppi, its about running at a true HD resolution which means no downscaling and loss of quality.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 07:20 PM   #106
matttye
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonskovsky View Post
Now I'm curious. So I started taking a look at what the iPhone 5 can really do.

I went to RED's website just to see what they've got.

I started looking at the OZ trailer. Even though this is in HD, it's not as vivid as it should be.

Image

It's relatively crisp though. As far as facial features but things like fire don't pop.

Image

What's missing, why doesn't this look better?

Image

If the retina display makes pixels invisible, then that should not be blurry. The gold mist should be vibrant and crispy. It's dull and blurry. I was really amazed by what BLU Ray can do. But not this.

Also, did you know that if you have pictures in the photo app, sliding through them or deleting them, you'll see it blurry and then go to regular resolution? Even something as simple as taking pictures of each of your home screens and then deleting some, they come up blurry.

I'm not going to say that the iPhone 5 isn't powerful, but I'm also not going to talk about it like it's the best of the best. The iPhone 5 is more of an ordinary phone than any other before it and Apple is falling behind.
I find it really hard to tell if you're joking or not. The pictures are blurry because, well, they're sliding into view. They're not still. Once the picture has scrolled into view and its drawn at full resolution, it's not blurry.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 07:25 PM   #107
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I disagree with your disagreement.

This is a classic case of a manufacturer trying to say their product is better by taking some spec value well beyond where its useful. If X is good, then X++ must be lots better.

But there's usually a limit where you can tell. The whole idea of a retina display is that the resolution is higher than your eye can distinguish. Doesn't matter if you add millions more pixels, there comes a time when it just doesn't matter. The iPhone 5 is already beyond where it matters.

It's like with stereos. Amplifiers long ago could not do high notes. So the higher a frequency it could play the better. Human hearing is generally 20-20khz. Once amplifiers were able to do that, manufacturers didn't want to stop.
My amp can do 20-40khz, some even bragging about 80khz or more. It was absurd since it was much much higher than any human could possibly hear. Now everyone lists just to 20khz. Going beyond that is actually bad due to artifacts from digital music.

The bottom line is that the resolution of the iPhone 5 in the size display that it has, is plenty, and higher resolution in that size screen is not normally perceptible.

So don't worry about whether its HD or not, it looks great on the iPhone 5. And the iPhone 5 does a much better job being accurate to colors than some other displays (s3).[COLOR="#808080"]
You are confusing what an HD display means with resolution density. The fact is that the iPhone 5 does not have an HD display, is missing 200,000 pixels to even be qualified for being 720p, and introduces display artifacts in 720p videos because it cannot display it at native resolutions.

As for your "retina display", did you actually fall for the all that Apple marketing material and take it as gospel? Fact is, many people with good vision can still see jagged edges and the checkered pattern outlining pixels in an iPhone "retina display". Apple marketing of "retina display" is not some God given commandment. For example, if I use Safari on my retina iPhone or iPod Touch, I can see some small checkered patterns outlining pixels inside of the white navigation buttons and in the grey and white text of websites. Maybe you are older than I am and have worse vision and can't see this but I don't consider myself to have hawk eyes and I can still see them in the right places on an Apple "retina display".
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 07:26 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by dmelgar View Post
I disagree with your disagreement.

This is a classic case of a manufacturer trying to say their product is better by taking some spec value well beyond where its useful. If X is good, then X++ must be lots better.

But there's usually a limit where you can tell. The whole idea of a retina display is that the resolution is higher than your eye can distinguish. Doesn't matter if you add millions more pixels, there comes a time when it just doesn't matter. The iPhone 5 is already beyond where it matters.
You missed the whole point of his post lol. When you are not running at native resolution you get upscaling or downscaling. This can reduce image quality. This is the reason the latest android phones have 1080p screens, when you watch a hd movie (true HD is 1080p) you are watching at native resolution with no image processing and upscaling. If you play a 1080p movie on the iPhones 640p screen you are missing 440 pixels of information vertically!!! The 1080p image then needs to be downsampled where you lose alot of detail.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 07:30 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking View Post
Apple marketing of "retina display" is not some God given commandment. For example, if I use Safari on my retina iPhone or iPod Touch, I can see some small checkered patterns outlining pixels inside of the white navigation buttons and in the grey and white text of websites.
amen brother.

retina display sounds nice when you say it, but, "clearer than a printed page" ?

I should say not.

Last edited by bonskovsky; Jan 19, 2013 at 07:36 PM.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 07:37 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by torana355 View Post
Ok i will explain this for you, if you watch a 720p video on a screen that is not that exact resolution the video quality is decreased at it has to be either down or upscaled. This is why people like to watch stuff at native resolution.

----------



Its not about ppi, its about running at a true HD resolution which means no downscaling and loss of quality.
Actually that is completely incorrect. PPI is what matters. And just because it doesn't run at native res, doesn't mean it looks worse. That's like saying if you take a piece of paper, make another exactly like it in material and everything else, at the same aspect ratio, and then make it smaller, it's a worse piece of paper. It's not. And PPI is very important actually. If you made a 1000 inch TV with a resolution of 1920 by 1080 ("full HD") and play an HD video, it would look like a piece of crap because the pixels would be so big. The iPhone has a display that makes it so that the human eye can't tell the difference between each pixel at a normal viewing distance. Adding more pixels would be like putting an Apple Store right next to an Apple Store that can fit everyone comfortably anyway. It's pointless. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference unless you looked at the screen from like half an inch away. "True HD" is just marketing that TV companies pump into consumers to buy their TV's. Same with HDMI cables. Marketing goes a long way.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 07:47 PM   #111
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Actually that is completely incorrect. PPI is what matters. And just because it doesn't run at native res, doesn't mean it looks worse. That's like saying if you take a piece of paper, make another exactly like it in material and everything else, at the same aspect ratio, and then make it smaller, it's a worse piece of paper. It's not. And PPI is very important actually. If you made a 1000 inch TV with a resolution of 1920 by 1080 ("full HD") and play an HD video, it would look like a piece of crap because the pixels would be so big. The iPhone has a display that makes it so that the human eye can't tell the difference between each pixel at a normal viewing distance. Adding more pixels would be like putting an Apple Store right next to an Apple Store that can fit everyone comfortably anyway. It's pointless. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference unless you looked at the screen from like half an inch away. "True HD" is just marketing that TV companies pump into consumers to buy their TV's. Same with HDMI cables. Marketing goes a long way.
I disagree. The fact that the retina display "makes it so that the human eye can't tell the difference between each pixel at a normal viewing distance" is the very thing that makes it an inferior concept. I actually need to be able to look at it from an inch to tell that what I'm seeing is the real deal. That's why we're not getting that vividness. You have to view it from shoulder length for it to look "right" any closer and the illusion is broken.

Here is a PPI calculator.

http://members.ping.de/~sven/dpi.html
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 07:50 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking View Post
You are confusing what an HD display means with resolution density. The fact is that the iPhone 5 does not have an HD display, is missing 200,000 pixels to even be qualified for being 720p, and introduces display artifacts in 720p videos because it cannot display it at native resolutions.

As for your "retina display", did you actually fall for the all that Apple marketing material and take it as gospel? Fact is, many people with good vision can still see jagged edges and the checkered pattern outlining pixels in an iPhone "retina display". Apple marketing of "retina display" is not some God given commandment. For example, if I use Safari on my retina iPhone or iPod Touch, I can see some small checkered patterns outlining pixels inside of the white navigation buttons and in the grey and white text of websites. Maybe you are older than I am and have worse vision and can't see this but I don't consider myself to have hawk eyes and I can still see them in the right places on an Apple "retina display".
Have to say I haven't noticed any display artefacts. Got an example vid where it's clear to see?

My vision is 6/6 so it's probably understandable why I can't distinguish pixels 20/20 with glasses though, and I still can't!

By the time I get close enough to the screen where I think I might see pixels, it goes blurry.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by bonskovsky View Post
I disagree. The fact that the retina display "makes it so that the human eye can't tell the difference between each pixel at a normal viewing distance" is the very thing that makes it an inferior concept. I actually need to be able to look at it from an inch to tell that what I'm seeing is the real deal. That's why we're not getting that vividness. You have to view it from shoulder length for it to look "right" any closer and the illusion is broken.

Here is a PPI calculator.

http://members.ping.de/~sven/dpi.html
If pixels are indistinguishable at your usual distance, then what's the problem? You surely don't use the phone only an inch from your face...
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 07:50 PM   #113
Radiating
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonskovsky View Post
Now I'm curious. So I started taking a look at what the iPhone 5 can really do.

I went to RED's website just to see what they've got.

I started looking at the OZ trailer. Even though this is in HD, it's not as vivid as it should be.

Image

It's relatively crisp though. As far as facial features but things like fire don't pop.

Image

What's missing, why doesn't this look better?

Image

If the retina display makes pixels invisible, then that should not be blurry. The gold mist should be vibrant and crispy. It's dull and blurry. I was really amazed by what BLU Ray can do. But not this.

Also, did you know that if you have pictures in the photo app, sliding through them or deleting them, you'll see it blurry and then go to regular resolution? Even something as simple as taking pictures of each of your home screens and then deleting some, they come up blurry.

I'm not going to say that the iPhone 5 isn't powerful, but I'm also not going to talk about it like it's the best of the best. The iPhone 5 is more of an ordinary phone than any other before it and Apple is falling behind.
This is extremly inane. You're using software flaws to try to prove that a screen lacks resolution.

That's like coating a can of fire retradant in gasoline and complaining that it lights on fire.

Completly absurd.

If you want to do a real test use a dot interference pattern:



Save this to your phone and view it at full resolution.

The dot patern alternates between black, grey and white dots.

If you cannot make out the difference between the white, and the grey dots then disussion over.

This is a test of the modular transfer 50 function. This may enhance the apperance of screen flickering, ignore that.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 07:54 PM   #114
torana355
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Actually that is completely incorrect. PPI is what matters. And just because it doesn't run at native res, doesn't mean it looks worse. That's like saying if you take a piece of paper, make another exactly like it in material and everything else, at the same aspect ratio, and then make it smaller, it's a worse piece of paper. It's not. And PPI is very important actually. If you made a 1000 inch TV with a resolution of 1920 by 1080 ("full HD") and play an HD video, it would look like a piece of crap because the pixels would be so big. The iPhone has a display that makes it so that the human eye can't tell the difference between each pixel at a normal viewing distance. Adding more pixels would be like putting an Apple Store right next to an Apple Store that can fit everyone comfortably anyway. It's pointless. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference unless you looked at the screen from like half an inch away. "True HD" is just marketing that TV companies pump into consumers to buy their TV's. Same with HDMI cables. Marketing goes a long way.
No what i said is 100% correct. If you had any idea what you were talking about you would know this. If you have not heard of upscalling and downscaling and how it decreases image quality then you should not even have replied to my post. Basically what i was saying is that each pixel of information has its own PHYSICAL pixel to be displaced in at native resolution. When you have to downscale you are throwing away pixels of information which reduces the quality of the source. This has nothing to do with how many pixels are crammed into an inch!!! Get that out of your head, im well aware how PPI is important but as everyone has said ALL phones have 300ppi and above so that is not an issue. Its all about native resolutions.
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Last edited by torana355; Jan 19, 2013 at 08:01 PM.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 07:54 PM   #115
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If pixels are indistinguishable at your usual distance, then what's the problem? You surely don't use the phone only an inch from your face...
Of course pixels are indistinguishable from a certain distance. You're already too far away from it for it to matter. Take the best display you've ever seen, like an HDTV, if you're watching from outside the house, you can't see the individual pixels.

I hold the iPhone 7 inches away. That's the sweet spot.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 07:58 PM   #116
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Of course pixels are indistinguishable from a certain distance. You're already too far away from it for it to matter. Take the best display you've ever seen, like an HDTV, if you're watching from outside the house, you can't see the individual pixels.

I hold the iPhone 7 inches away. That's the sweet spot.
Well then! What's the problem?

If you look at any display through a microscope you're going to see pixels, does that mean its no good?
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 08:00 PM   #117
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This is extremly inane. You're using software flaws to try to prove that a screen lacks resolution.

That's like coating a can of fire retradant in gasoline and complaining that it lights on fire.

Completly absurd.

If you want to do a real test use a dot interference pattern:

Image

Save this to your phone and view it at full resolution.

The dot patern alternates between black, grey and white dots.

If you cannot make out the difference between the white, and the grey dots then disussion over.

This is a test of the modular transfer 50 function. This may enhance the apperance of screen flickering, ignore that.
Perfect example of what I just said. Holding it at arms length, it doesn't matter how HD it is,
Holding it at 7 inches, I can see the details.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 08:01 PM   #118
matttye
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This is extremly inane. You're using software flaws to try to prove that a screen lacks resolution.

That's like coating a can of fire retradant in gasoline and complaining that it lights on fire.

Completly absurd.

If you want to do a real test use a dot interference pattern:

Image

Save this to your phone and view it at full resolution.

The dot patern alternates between black, grey and white dots.

If you cannot make out the difference between the white, and the grey dots then disussion over.

This is a test of the modular transfer 50 function. This may enhance the apperance of screen flickering, ignore that.
You don't have to save it, just rotate the phone horizontally.

Can't distinguish pixels on iPhone 5 but easily can on iPad 2, as suspected

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by bonskovsky View Post
Perfect example of what I just said. Holding it at arms length, it doesn't matter how HD it is,
Holding it at 7 inches, I can see the details.
Did you hold it horizontally so the image fills the screen?
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 08:03 PM   #119
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Yes.There's a definite pattern. We talked about this before.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 08:10 PM   #120
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Yes.There's a definite pattern. We talked about this before.
Sure there is
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 08:14 PM   #121
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Talking

Say what you want, but in hindsight, I find irony in having been so impressed with Blu-ray video yet Apple sitting here talking about how retina is more HD than an HDTV, but I've never seen it that way.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 08:28 PM   #122
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Say what you want, but in hindsight, I find irony in having been so impressed with Blu-ray video yet Apple sitting here talking about how retina is more HD than an HDTV, but I've never seen it that way.
I don't think Apple ever said that, you're probably misinterpreting something they actually said.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 08:30 PM   #123
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Have to say I haven't noticed any display artefacts. Got an example vid where it's clear to see?

My vision is 6/6 so it's probably understandable why I can't distinguish pixels 20/20 with glasses though, and I still can't!

By the time I get close enough to the screen where I think I might see pixels, it goes blurry.[COLOR="#808080"]
Time to prove you wrong. I will use a image instead of a video to make this simpler and reduce the inane denials from the Apple loyalists. Download this HD 1280x720p test image:

http://www.dveo.com/images/hdtv/itworks-HDTV_720P.png

View it on both your iPhone 5 and on a 720p Android phone. On your iPhone, zoom out and let it spring back in to ensure you actually see the whole image since the iPhone doesn't have enough pixels to display it all natively. I'm using a Galaxy Note 2 for comparison which does have a native 720p display and opens the image up completely without cropping.

Now that you have both open showing the full image with no cropping, look at the black and white line divisions in the middle of the test image. Notice that on the iPhone, both the finest and second finest line divisions are shown in clumped groups compared to the correct rendering on a real 720p display like a Galaxy Note 2. On a real 720p display, the finest and second finest line divisions are displayed evenly and without clumped lines. This is easy to see and I'm looking from 2-3 feet away.

This people, is just one example of why the iPhone 5 is inferior for watching 720p content. The fact is that the iPhone 5 display is not HD, is missing 200,000 pixels to be 720p, and it introduces visible display artifacts into 720p content like I have shown. The denials from all the Apple loyalists here are both inane and absurdly wrong.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 08:40 PM   #124
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What about that part when Apple said the iPhone 5 screen has 44% more color saturation than the 4S, helping it meet some standard? When Phil said it was the most accurate color display on the market, he was lying? Anyone can explain?
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 08:46 PM   #125
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Time to prove you wrong. I will use a image instead of a video to make this simpler and reduce the inane denials from the Apple loyalists. Download this HD 1280x720p test image:

http://www.dveo.com/images/hdtv/itworks-HDTV_720P.png

View it on both your iPhone 5 and on a 720p Android phone. On your iPhone, zoom out and let it spring back in to ensure you actually see the whole image since the iPhone doesn't have enough pixels to display it all natively. I'm using a Galaxy Note 2 for comparison which does have a native 720p display and opens the image up completely without cropping.

Now that you have both open showing the full image with no cropping, look at the black and white line divisions in the middle of the test image. Notice that on the iPhone, both the finest and second finest line divisions are shown in clumped groups compared to the correct rendering on a real 720p display like a Galaxy Note 2. On a real 720p display, the finest and second finest line divisions are displayed evenly and without clumped lines. This is easy to see and I'm looking from 2-3 feet away.

This people, is just one example of why the iPhone 5 is inferior for watching 720p content. The fact is that the iPhone 5 display is not HD, is missing 200,000 pixels to be 720p, and it introduces visible display artifacts into 720p content like I have shown. The denials from all the Apple loyalists here are both inane and absurdly wrong.
There's nothing to prove wrong. I said I hadn't noticed any artefacts, not that they didn't exist. Your aggressive posting style makes you look like a fool.

I don't have a 720p Android phone to compare with, so ill take your word for it!
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