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Old Jan 19, 2013, 08:56 PM   #126
SomeDudeAsking
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Originally Posted by matttye View Post
There's nothing to prove wrong. I said I hadn't noticed any artefacts, not that they didn't exist. Your aggressive posting style makes you look like a fool.

I don't have a 720p Android phone to compare with, so ill take your word for it!
If you think I'm a "fool", then call me a "correct fool".

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuphgorb7 View Post
They want the 720 as the spec, but the difference is imperceptible to the eye on that screen
I see we have another..........who doesn't understand the mathematics of pixels.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:02 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking View Post
If you think I'm a "fool", then call me a "correct fool".
Partially correct. The second to finest lines in that image are evenly spaced out. The finest lines are indeed clumped together. That's what I would expect with downscaling.

That is precisely the sort of thing I wouldn't even notice until somebody points it out. It's such a minor issue.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:05 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking View Post
Time to prove you wrong. I will use a image instead of a video to make this simpler and reduce the inane denials from the Apple loyalists. Download this HD 1280x720p test image:

http://www.dveo.com/images/hdtv/itworks-HDTV_720P.png

View it on both your iPhone 5 and on a 720p Android phone. On your iPhone, zoom out and let it spring back in to ensure you actually see the whole image since the iPhone doesn't have enough pixels to display it all natively. I'm using a Galaxy Note 2 for comparison which does have a native 720p display and opens the image up completely without cropping.

Now that you have both open showing the full image with no cropping, look at the black and white line divisions in the middle of the test image. Notice that on the iPhone, both the finest and second finest line divisions are shown in clumped groups compared to the correct rendering on a real 720p display like a Galaxy Note 2. On a real 720p display, the finest and second finest line divisions are displayed evenly and without clumped lines. This is easy to see and I'm looking from 2-3 feet away.

This people, is just one example of why the iPhone 5 is inferior for watching 720p content. The fact is that the iPhone 5 display is not HD, is missing 200,000 pixels to be 720p, and it introduces visible display artifacts into 720p content like I have shown. The denials from all the Apple loyalists here are both inane and absurdly wrong.
Here's how my phone viewed it:

Thumb resize.

I will concede to that argument. I can see the clumping on the finest lines and just barely on the next ones up (I can see a bit of grey in between a few of them at that level). But is this noticeable when viewing HD content? That is what is being discussed really. I am not arguing that the resolution is not actually HD standard definition. Numbers are numbers. 1136 x 640 does not equal 1280 x 720 obviously.

The ability to perceive this difference in an actual film is what I'm arguing. At this screen size and at the distance that I would be watching a movie, I argue that you cannot see the difference.

Your test is also a little skewed anyway. You're viewing it on a 5.5" screen or however big the note 2 is. I viewed the picture on my laptop first and the image initially wasn't at full res which gave the same impression as when I viewed it at full res on my phone. But when zoomed in to the actual res on my computer the illusion was not there.

I still throw out the argument that watching movies on a 4-5" device is not normal anyway. YouTube video's are fine, but I have no desire to watch a full length movie on my phone.

Here's some screen shots of videos on my phone.

First one is a 1080p trailer for Dark Knight Rises (downloaded from YouTube so not a rip from a Blu Ray)

The rest are from a 720p video also downloaded from YouTube.

Thumb resize.

Thumb resize.

Thumb resize.

I just want to know if you see these visible artifacts in my screen grabs.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:08 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by vastoholic View Post
Here's how my phone viewed it:

Thumb resize.

I will concede to that argument. I can see the clumping on the finest lines and just barely on the next ones up (I can see a bit of grey in between a few of them at that level). But is this noticeable when viewing HD content? That is what is being discussed really. I am not arguing that the resolution is not actually HD standard definition. Numbers are numbers. 1136 x 640 does not equal 1280 x 720 obviously.

The ability to perceive this difference in an actual film is what I'm arguing. At this screen size and at the distance that I would be watching a movie, I argue that you cannot see the difference.

Your test is also a little skewed anyway. You're viewing it on a 5.5" screen or however big the note 2 is. I viewed the picture on my laptop first and the image initially wasn't at full res which gave the same impression as when I viewed it at full res on my phone. But when zoomed in to the actual res on my computer the illusion was not there.

I still throw out the argument that watching movies on a 4-5" device is not normal anyway. YouTube video's are fine, but I have no desire to watch a full length movie on my phone.

Here's some screen shots of videos on my phone.

First one is a 1080p trailer for Dark Knight Rises (downloaded from YouTube so not a rip from a Blu Ray)

The rest are from a 720p video also downloaded from YouTube.

Thumb resize.

Thumb resize.

Thumb resize.

I just want to know if you see these visible artifacts in my screen grabs.
looks blurry to me
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:10 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by torana355 View Post
No what i said is 100% correct. If you had any idea what you were talking about you would know this. If you have not heard of upscalling and downscaling and how it decreases image quality then you should not even have replied to my post. Basically what i was saying is that each pixel of information has its own PHYSICAL pixel to be displaced in at native resolution. When you have to downscale you are throwing away pixels of information which reduces the quality of the source. This has nothing to do with how many pixels are crammed into an inch!!! Get that out of your head, im well aware how PPI is important but as everyone has said ALL phones have 300ppi and above so that is not an issue. Its all about native resolutions.
"Downscaling is the opposite of upscaling. Downscaling happens when video played on a television has a resolution that is higher than the television itself. For the video to be displayed on the screen, it must be shrunk down to fit it. Downscaled video will usually have the same picture quality as video with a matching resolution. For instance, 1080i/1080p video can be displayed on a 720p television, although it will only have the picture quality of 720p HD."

Downscaling doesn't create arifacts, it just squeezes the information together into the correct resolution. Just because it isn't a 1:1 ratio of pixels, doesn't mean it automatically creates arifacts. Plus, becauses it's able to push those 727,040 pixels at a PPI of 326 so you still can't distinguish the difference between the pixels when watching it. So yes PPI does matter. Imagine watching a 1080p movie on a screen with a PPI of 1 with a resolution of 1920X1080. Then watching it on a screen with a PPI of 326 with a resolution of 1136X640. What would look better?
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:15 PM   #131
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A quick question, why is it that Apple's website doesn't display HD content?
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:15 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by lunaoso View Post
"Downscaling is the opposite of upscaling. Downscaling happens when video played on a television has a resolution that is higher than the television itself. For the video to be displayed on the screen, it must be shrunk down to fit it. Downscaled video will usually have the same picture quality as video with a matching resolution. For instance, 1080i/1080p video can be displayed on a 720p television, although it will only have the picture quality of 720p HD."

Downscaling doesn't create arifacts, it just squeezes the information together into the correct resolution. Just because it isn't a 1:1 ratio of pixels, doesn't mean it automatically creates arifacts. Plus, becauses it's able to push those 727,040 pixels at a PPI of 326 so you still can't distinguish the difference between the pixels when watching it. So yes PPI does matter. Imagine watching a 1080p movie on a screen with a PPI of 1 with a resolution of 1920X1080. Then watching it on a screen with a PPI of 326 with a resolution of 1136X640. What would look better?

Downscaling does infact affect image quality. A quick search in google will show it causes artifacts and jaggies among other issues. So much misinformation on these forums from Apple fanboys that really have no idea what they are talking about. Im a massive audiovisualphile with over 20k worth of audiovisual gear, ive done my research on this subject when purchasing tv's and AV amps. Please learn what you are talking about before spreading misinformation. btw playing a 1080p movie on a 720p screen does indeed lead to image quality issues, ive seen it first hand.
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Last edited by torana355; Jan 19, 2013 at 09:22 PM.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:28 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by vastoholic View Post
Here's how my phone viewed it:

Thumb resize.

I will concede to that argument. I can see the clumping on the finest lines and just barely on the next ones up (I can see a bit of grey in between a few of them at that level). But is this noticeable when viewing HD content? That is what is being discussed really. I am not arguing that the resolution is not actually HD standard definition. Numbers are numbers. 1136 x 640 does not equal 1280 x 720 obviously.

The ability to perceive this difference in an actual film is what I'm arguing. At this screen size and at the distance that I would be watching a movie, I argue that you cannot see the difference.

Your test is also a little skewed anyway. You're viewing it on a 5.5" screen or however big the note 2 is. I viewed the picture on my laptop first and the image initially wasn't at full res which gave the same impression as when I viewed it at full res on my phone. But when zoomed in to the actual res on my computer the illusion was not there.

I still throw out the argument that watching movies on a 4-5" device is not normal anyway. YouTube video's are fine, but I have no desire to watch a full length movie on my phone.

Here's some screen shots of videos on my phone.

First one is a 1080p trailer for Dark Knight Rises (downloaded from YouTube so not a rip from a Blu Ray)

The rest are from a 720p video also downloaded from YouTube.

Thumb resize.

Thumb resize.

Thumb resize.

I just want to know if you see these visible artifacts in my screen grabs.
Yeah, like bonskovsky said, your screen grabs are blurry and I can clearly see artifacts in them. And it's not my fault your laptop can't display a 720p picture correctly, my test is valid.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:33 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torana355 View Post
Downscaling does infact affect image quality. A quick search in google will show it causes artifacts and jaggies among other issues. So much misinformation on these forums from Apple fanboys that really have no idea what they are talking about. Im a massive audiovisualphile with over 20k worth of audiovisual gear, ive done my research on this subject when purchasing tv's and AV amps. Please learn what you are talking about before spreading misinformation. btw playing a 1080p movie on a 720p screen does indeed lead to image quality issues, ive seen it first hand.
Number one, calling me a fanboy doesn't make your argument any better. And I just did a google search, and I actually found the complete opposite from multiple people than what you are saying. Obviously we aren't going to come to a conclusion on this, so lets just agree to disagree.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:35 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking View Post
Yeah, like bonskovsky said, your screen grabs are blurry and I can clearly see artifacts in them. And it's not my fault your laptop can't display a 720p picture correctly, my test is valid.
They are blurry because they are screen grabs of moving pictures. Please point out the "artifacts".
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:36 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by lunaoso View Post
Number one, calling me a fanboy doesn't make your argument any better. And I just did a google search, and I actually found the complete opposite from multiple people than what you are saying. Obviously we aren't going to come to a conclusion on this, so lets just agree to disagree.
There is a reason you can buy dedicated video scaling devices, there is also a reason the latest av amps and TV's have built in high end video rescaling. You are full of crap. There is no opinions to disagree on here, what im saying is just fact. Plain and simple.

Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2013-01-20 at 2.35.27 PM.png
Views:	46
Size:	258.2 KB
ID:	391334

This screenshot of a google search says otherwise...Please post the link to these people that said otherwise???
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Last edited by torana355; Jan 19, 2013 at 09:42 PM.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:39 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by vastoholic View Post
They are blurry because they are screen grabs of moving pictures. Please point out the "artifacts".
Ahhh, do you actually know how to set up a comparison test? Unlike what I did where I provided correct source material, you just post screen grabs from your low resolution iPhone. What do you want me to compare it against? A blue sky? And if you are not going to provide any comparison material at the correct resolutions, then any blind man can just point out all the blurry artifacts from your low resolution screen grabs.

Last edited by SomeDudeAsking; Jan 19, 2013 at 09:45 PM.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:45 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking View Post
Ahhh, do you actually know how to set up a comparison test? Unlike what I did where I provided correct source material, you just post screen grabs from your low resolution iPhone. What do you want me to compare it against? A blue sky?
Show me screen grabs of the same video from your note 2?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kGIjetX6TBk
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:47 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking View Post
You are confusing what an HD display means with resolution density. The fact is that the iPhone 5 does not have an HD display, is missing 200,000 pixels to even be qualified for being 720p, and introduces display artifacts in 720p videos because it cannot display it at native resolutions.

As for your "retina display", did you actually fall for the all that Apple marketing material and take it as gospel? Fact is, many people with good vision can still see jagged edges and the checkered pattern outlining pixels in an iPhone "retina display". Apple marketing of "retina display" is not some God given commandment. For example, if I use Safari on my retina iPhone or iPod Touch, I can see some small checkered patterns outlining pixels inside of the white navigation buttons and in the grey and white text of websites. Maybe you are older than I am and have worse vision and can't see this but I don't consider myself to have hawk eyes and I can still see them in the right places on an Apple "retina display".

You have no idea what you're talking about. First off you're complaining about artifacts in 720p images? Do you have any idea about how proper downscaling works?

I'll give you a hint. I do professional video editing and have never seen any issues in tens of thousands of hours of video with minor downscaling.

The only time you get artifacts is when you use test charts, or when the code is writen with shortcuts.

For photos you will NEVER see the artifacts you saw in test chart images beacuse they simply are not an issue with any normal content.

Second the reason why you see checkered patterns in icons and buttons is NOT in any way shape or form because you can see the pixels, it is because of the TEXTURE of the screen.

Here are what a set of pixels look like:



Now here's that same set of pixels, downscaled to the size of an individual pixels and then upscaled to their original size:



Notice something? That's the pattern you're seeing. And it has NOTHING to do with being able to "see the pixels". You're not seeing pixels, you're seeing LCD patterns, there is a huge difference.

Last edited by Radiating; Jan 19, 2013 at 09:55 PM.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:50 PM   #140
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Show me screen grabs of the same video from your note 2?
What video? You haven't provided anything. And even if you have a video, you haven't even provided the time stamp and the frame number. Why don't you just pull those videos up on your laptop, set to show it at 100% scale and take some proper high resolution PNG screenshots at the exact same frame you did on your iPhone? Cause I'm not going through 3 entire videos looking frame by frame for you in a futile effort.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:52 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking View Post
What video? You haven't provided anything. And even if you have a video, you haven't even provided the time stamp and the frame number. Why don't you just pull those videos up on your laptop, set to show it at 100% scale and take some proper high resolution PNG screenshots at the exact same frame you did on your iPhone? Cause I'm not going through 3 entire videos looking frame by frame for you in a futile effort.
Posted a link for one. It's two videos. Maybe 2 minutes each.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:54 PM   #142
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There is a reason you can buy dedicated video scaling devices, there is also a reason the latest av amps have built in high end video rescaling. You are full of crap.

Attachment 391334

This screenshot of a google search says otherwise....
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1347954/does-downscaling-hurt-pq-like-upscaling-does

Got this straight from google. It's an AV forum, so these guys know what they are talking about. Multiple people. Not just one, all agreeing with my statement. But anyway, like I said before, I'm done arguing with you. We aren't getting anywhere. And calling me full of crap doesn't get you anywhere either. I was just having a friendly discussion and then you are making it into a flame war. I don't even want to talk to a guy who is just going to insult me and call me names the whole time. Just because we disagree doesn't mean you need to freak out at me.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 10:02 PM   #143
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Posted a link for one. It's two videos. Maybe 2 minutes each.
And which exact time AND FRAME NUMBER am I suppose to compare with?

And another thing, your motorcycle screen grabs show that you zoomed into the video on your iPhone instead of displaying the full video. So it would be useless for me to even compare it at 720p.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiating View Post
You have no idea what you're talking about. First off you're complaining about artifacts in 720p images? Do you have any idea about how proper downscaling works?

I'll give you a hint. I do professional video editing and have never seen any issues in tens of thousands of hours of video with minor downscaling.

The only time you get artifacts is when you use test charts, or when the code is writen with shortcuts.

For photos you will NEVER see the artifacts you saw in test chart images beacuse they simply are not an issue with any normal content.

Second the reason why you see checkered patterns in icons and buttons is NOT in any way shape or form because you can see the pixels, it is because of the TEXTURE of the screen.

Here are what a set of pixels look like:

Image

Now here's that same set of pixels, downscaled to the size of an individual pixels and then upscaled to their original size:

Image

Notice something? That's the pattern you're seeing. And it has NOTHING to do with being able to "see the pixels". You're not seeing pixels, you're seeing LCD patterns, there is a huge difference.
First off, do you know how the mathematics of pixel interpolation works? I'm a professional mathemagician and obey the laws of rounding. /sarcasm

And what is that inside of the grids? Pixels! And if I see the grids, what do you think that also means? I can see the pixels. /Obvious.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 10:07 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking View Post
And which exact time AND FRAME NUMBER am I suppose to compare with?

And another thing, your motorcycle screen grabs show that you zoomed into the video on your iPhone instead of displaying the full video. So it would be useless for me to even compare it at 720p.[COLOR="#808080"]
Around the 53 second mark for motorcycle video for one of them. It wasn't zoomed in. That is how it displays. I can't it zoom in or out of the video. I'm not trying to mess with the results. Just point out the artifacts to me and then show a screen grab from your note 2. No need to get technical because I'm not discussing technicalities. I'm discussing the perceived deifference in image quality.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 10:11 PM   #145
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Around the 53 second mark for motorcycle video for one of them. It wasn't zoomed in. That is how it displays. I can't it zoom in or out of the video. I'm not trying to mess with the results. Just point out the artifacts to me and then show a screen grab from your note 2. No need to get technical because I'm not discussing technicalities. I'm discussing the perceived deifference in image quality.
Son, I don't think you get the meaning of a controlled experiment. You can't even display the full video and you expect me to give you results for a 720p comparison? And which exact frame at the 53 second mark am I looking for? "Around" is not a good enough answer.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 10:17 PM   #146
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Son, I don't think you get the meaning of a controlled experiment. You can't even display the full video and you expect me to give you results for a 720p comparison? And which exact frame at the 53 second mark am I looking for? "Around" is not a good enough answer.
Can your phone go to exact frames? If it can, I'm impressed. This was a video downloaded from YouTube on my computer and synced to my phone. How is it not displaying the full video? Just take a screen grab and show me how much better your image quality is to mine. Simple. It's a slow motion video. It's not hard to capture a similar screen capture. Indulge me.

Don't call me son. I'm older than you.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 10:20 PM   #147
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Don't call me son. I'm older than you.
Lol best quote of the night
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 10:29 PM   #148
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http://www.avsforum.com/t/1347954/does-downscaling-hurt-pq-like-upscaling-does

Got this straight from google. It's an AV forum, so these guys know what they are talking about. Multiple people. Not just one, all agreeing with my statement. But anyway, like I said before, I'm done arguing with you. We aren't getting anywhere. And calling me full of crap doesn't get you anywhere either. I was just having a friendly discussion and then you are making it into a flame war. I don't even want to talk to a guy who is just going to insult me and call me names the whole time. Just because we disagree doesn't mean you need to freak out at me.
The one person in that thread that actually knows what they are talking about says downscaling algorithms are more bearable then upscaling, which is correct. They also said you can get less aliasing but they failed to mention the other negative effects like artifacts which i have seen personally on my old 720p LCD tv which don't appear with the same source material on my new 1080p tv.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 10:33 PM   #149
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Can your phone go to exact frames? If it can, I'm impressed. This was a video downloaded from YouTube on my computer and synced to my phone. How is it not displaying the full video? Just take a screen grab and show me how much better your image quality is to mine. Simple. It's a slow motion video. It's not hard to capture a similar screen capture. Indulge me.

Don't call me son. I'm older than you.
Maybe you are older, but not wiser. How old are you?

And you still have not answered my questions. What exact frame? Your "Around" 53 seconds don't match your screen grabs. Why don't you save me a headache and just do it yourself? Why am I doing all the work? You do it and give me proper screenshots at the right resolutions and at the exact same frame.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 10:45 PM   #150
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Maybe you are older, but not wiser. How old are you?

And you still have not answered my questions. What exact frame? Your "Around" 53 seconds don't match your screen grabs. Why don't you save me a headache and just do it yourself? Why am I doing all the work? You do it and give me proper screenshots at the right resolutions and at the exact same frame.
I'm 27.

I can't tell you the exact frame. It's on my phone. I'm not near a computer right now. Sorry. What you're asking of me would ruin the purpose of the comparison. I want to know how the video looks on your note 2 at actual 720p resolution compared to my lower resolution iPhone. I don't want to know how it looks on my computer or your computer. Your phone. I want to know if I can see a difference in image quality of the same video on these two separate resolution displays. Playing at native 720p compared to the iPhones resolution. Tomorrow I will try to go the store and look at it myself and take screen captures.
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Last edited by vastoholic; Jan 20, 2013 at 03:03 AM. Reason: edited for word/spelling correction
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