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Old Oct 4, 2012, 02:58 AM   #126
theBB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g4cube View Post
Most likely the docking stations are not shipping for several reasons:
- they don't work
- the software drivers aren't finished
Or there is no demand for it. For most people even USB3 is overkill, Firewire800 has been god enough for video editing and ethernet is the medium for networked storage in business environments. I am sure there are niche applications that can use TB here and there, but there is no point in making a hub that only a thousand people need.
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 04:05 AM   #127
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Usb2

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Originally Posted by ChrisA View Post
If all you use the computer for is email and forum posting then even USB 2.0 is overkill. But what happens if you edit HD video? Or try to edit a batch of a hundred or so photos from an SLR in raw format? Or maybe you are recording a few tracks of audio?

Yes I know, few people actually create stuff. So USB 2 is good enough for the masses.
That's rather snobbish of you. I, for one, have been creating Video/Audio/Jpegs quite happily with USB2 for many years, thank you!

Last edited by Jimeny; Oct 4, 2012 at 04:06 AM. Reason: Amendment
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 04:37 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by ChrisA View Post
If all you use the computer for is email and forum posting then even USB 2.0 is overkill. But what happens if you edit HD video? Or try to edit a batch of a hundred or so photos from an SLR in raw format? Or maybe you are recording a few tracks of audio?

Yes I know, few people actually create stuff. So USB 2 is good enough for the masses.
Well, I'm a professional photographer, retoucher and video editor, and I do all of that on a MacBook Pro. I work on dozens of 2GB+ PSD files a day, HD video and thousands of uncompressed RAW files, and it's not a problem at all, the speed is slightly slower, but not so much as to justify the purchase of these ridiculously expensive hubs and cables. The difference between USB 2.0 and working from the internal hard drive is basically that icons refresh slower, copy operations take a few minutes longer, and saving large files takes a bit longer too. But actual work on the files is the same, it's always buffered into the RAM so you rarely notice. It's more of a comfort thing, it isn't really going to make you work a lot faster… I'd rather spend the extra money on extra storage space, and backup, a new computer or SLR, for that price. It's not life-changing technology, but it's priced as if it were.

Sure, it would be great if everything went slightly faster, but it's far too overpriced, and it will probably remain that way. USB 3.0 hard drives, for example, are available at a decent price, but only appeared in Macs just recently. My computer doesn't have USB 3 or Thunderbolt, and there are only a few FireWire 800 drives that provide decent storage, and they're overpriced too, so I never got any. It was never an issue really!

USB 2.0 was pretty much the only thing anyone could use until now. FW never really took off, and there was not much else.
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 04:58 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g4cube View Post
LaCie Rugged mini with Thunderbolt and USB 3.0 interface, 120GB SSD. Includes Thunderbolt and USB cable. Stock at announcement, $199. There are also 256GB SSD and 1TB HDD versions.
Why make a single Thunderbolt + USB 3 when they already had a USB 3 model?
Why kill the chain?
2x thunderbolt model for anyone with thunderbolt.
Existing USB 3 model for everyone else...
Am I missing something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by g4cube View Post
Apple is shipping relatively inexpensive FireWire and Ethernet adapters @$29 ea.
If you need FW and Ethernet, no more cinema display
Why does nothing under $600 have Thunderbolt passthrough?
(besides the $200 esata hub).

Quote:
Originally Posted by g4cube View Post
Windows laptops are shipping with Thunderbolt ports. There are motherboards shipping with Thunderbolt ports for the DIY and BYO crowd.
Any that aren't ultrabooks? I almost got a G75 (pissed at Apple for not being ready to ship w/ Ivy) but those were falsely labelled as Thunderbolt by most retailers. Even if it was Thunderbolt, without these stupid docks I'd be forced to choose between all my hard drives or the cinema display.
I think Apple just hates anyone with a cinema display.
Sure you can't plug our monitor into our new monitor, but if you add any number of non-chain killing thunderbolt products due sometime in 2011, it'll work great!
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 05:39 AM   #130
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This whole TB thing is so ********* up on so many levels.

- Only selected partners get access to TB parts, SDKs and support.

- Apple supervises the making of every TB device - before you sell, Apple wants prototype after prototype. God knows how long each iteration takes.

- You don't even get a freaking CABLE with your $300+ device. Yes I know, active cables, blahblah - GET OVER IT! $50 at the apple store means that it costs them around $9 (only because it's active - the new dock-connector plus 1m of cable is about 30ct or lower I guess).

I fail to understand what Apple's strategy on TB is.
How about investing some $$$ into this cluster-******* by subsidizing the chipsets, cables, whatever? I heard Apple has some cash.
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 07:59 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by TeamMojo View Post
Very uncool.
*snip*
Apple has to their **** together.
All Apple seems to care about is iOS anymore, so they can sell us expensive a/v content. Plus their cult-like store employees and to a lesser extent the folks who work the phones are starting to remind me of Scientologists.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtOfWarfare View Post
What world are you from? iTunes is the biggest, messiest crap Apple has ever made. It tries to do a million things and fails at all of them. Of all the things apple should copy from iOS to OS X, they should break iTunes into the half dozen smaller apps that work well rather than a single massive one that sucks.
Tell me about it; I can't even get a voice memo onto my computer anymore with the new iTunes. I can highlight the file but there's no conversion/export option any more. All I can do now is email it to myself!


Quote:
Originally Posted by haruhiko View Post
Thunderbolt debuted in early 2011 i.e. the negotiations were concluded in 2010, when Steve was still "healthy".
And by the time this Belkin hub is released, Thunderbolt will be obsolete...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fandongo View Post
I think Apple just hates anyone with a cinema display.
Yup

Last edited by OllyW; Oct 5, 2012 at 02:36 AM. Reason: Clean up to quoted post
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 08:20 AM   #132
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Its funny how apple people are willing to pay for overpriced crap. You could buy a pc laptop or even close to an ipad with the price of this docking station. But then again in the enterprise world a docxking station can reach $200.
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 08:20 AM   #133
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I've been waiting for decent Thunderbolt peripherals for so long, seems like this head start Apple got with the technology has been of no actual use cause of the lack of accessories, hopefully this will be remedied as thunderbolt becomes more adopted, it just has so much potential. MBA 13" + external GPU will be a power house.
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 08:54 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by baryon View Post
What's so bloody complicated in building such a boring and basic thing as a hub?
I guess they just forgot to ask you.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kas23 View Post
You know, the addition of the Thunderbolt port was very un-Apple of Apple. I surprised they didn't just eliminate the USB port when they introduced TB and sold us aTB-USB adaptor instead.
I assume you're mostly ironic, since TB serves very different purposes than USB, only overlapping in a few areas.
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 09:17 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fandongo View Post
Why make a single Thunderbolt + USB 3 when they already had a USB 3 model?
Why kill the chain?
2x thunderbolt model for anyone with thunderbolt.
Existing USB 3 model for everyone else...
Am I missing something?
Yes, the fact that sometimes people with portable drives want/need to plug them into a machine other than their personal one, and most computers around do not have thunderbolt while almost all have USB of some sort.
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 09:19 AM   #136
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"You know, the addition of the Thunderbolt port was very un-Apple of Apple. I surprised they didn't just eliminate the USB port when they introduced TB and sold us aTB-USB adaptor instead."

I predicted in this forum months ago that Thunderbolt would become "the Edsel" of new technologies, and that USB3 would run circles around it.

I suspect Belkin and Matrox realized that they were creating white elephants, products that few would want, even if the prices were significantly lower. But $399? They'd be lucky to sell 5,000 units, if that many.

I suspect that within 3-5 years (if that long), Thunderbolt will quietly fade away, except as perhaps a video port scheme.

By then, we should be seeing USB4 or USB5.

How many on this forum are old enough to remember "Beta v. VHS"?
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 09:37 AM   #137
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Thunderbolt feels a little snappier !
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 09:39 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Fishrrman View Post
I suspect that within 3-5 years (if that long), Thunderbolt will quietly fade away, except as perhaps a video port scheme.
But that's the thing though: incorporating it into DisplayPort pretty much ensures Thunderbolt's staying power. It gives more incentive for PC manufacturers to incorporate it. Especially when high PPI monitors start to saturate the market.
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 09:47 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by avanpelt View Post
If it hasn't taken off after nearly two years, I suspect it was DOA. Sure, the promise of Thunderbolt was awesome, but it was probably three or four years too early.

USB 3.0 will do everything most people need and Thunderbolt will remain the FireWire of this decade until it's slowly phased out of Apple hardware after six or seven years.
Phased out as in still available on iMacs and anything with a thunderbolt port via an adapter?
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 09:47 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post
http://www.gigabyte.us/press-center/....aspx?nid=1140

Newegg: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-Z77X-UP5%20TH

For $229 I get a state of the art Motherboard with Dual Thunderbolt Ports.

Sorry, but the pricing is way overpriced. I'd rather build out a Linux Box with this Mobo, but Belkin wants to charge $399 for this hub?

http://www.belkin.com/thunderbolt/

Sorry, but Gigabyte could eat Belkin's lunch in a flash by gutting that Motherboard down to size and putting a fancy case on it for $199 and own the market while still making a hefty profit.

It's a joke price and a useless product once more Mobo generic manufacturers in the Windows world have dual Thunderbolt on-board.
I was actually going to cite boards such as the one you linked to. If you look at them, there's almost the same amount of $$$ worth of silicon going into both. The Z77 chipset costs $48, but includes USB 3.0, the Gigabyte board only offers 1394a not 1394b, and the video output paths are a lot more straightforward. Gigabyte's design and build processes for motherboards are also very well established at this point, and they're trying to eke out marketshare in a highly competitive market that actually shrank this year, so their typical margin is most likely pretty darn thin. That's why I reckon they'd just be scraping by to offer the features of the Belkin dock for $249 (which is what Belkin would end up selling them for when they are forced to pull a 40% off sale because their list prices are too ambitious.)

The point of all this though, is that the mobo and video card makers are really the ones best suited to get into the Thunderbolt accessory game, not companies like Belkin. I really wish they would as well, because they could provide almost everything people have been asking for: Thunderbolt GPU solutions, docks, PC motherboards (Mini ITX) with Thunderbolt ports so there's more of a market, and enough competition to drive prices down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brainzilla View Post
This whole TB thing is so ********* up on so many levels.

- Only selected partners get access to TB parts, SDKs and support.
I think it's pretty wide open now, you just have to join Intel's Thunderbolt program.

Quote:
- Apple supervises the making of every TB device - before you sell, Apple wants prototype after prototype. God knows how long each iteration takes.
This is certainly not true now, and I'm not sure it ever was. Intel is responsible for Thunderbolt certification, not Apple.

Quote:
- You don't even get a freaking CABLE with your $300+ device. Yes I know, active cables, blahblah - GET OVER IT! $50 at the apple store means that it costs them around $9 (only because it's active - the new dock-connector plus 1m of cable is about 30ct or lower I guess).
Show me all the cables that can handle 2x 10 Gbps full-duplex channels that retail for less than $49. The transceivers used in the first gen Thunderbolt cables were more or less directly borrowed from the telecom industry, and were made using a rather expensive process. Cheaper and better suited silicon is already in the works, so the cable prices should come down soon, but don't expect miracles. The signaling rates are almost double anything else that currently exists in the consumer space.

Quote:
I fail to understand what Apple's strategy on TB is.
How about investing some $$$ into this cluster-******* by subsidizing the chipsets, cables, whatever? I heard Apple has some cash.
They have been. They kept their prices the same or lower across the board and added a $30 Thunderbolt controller to all the new Macs since 2011. They also pumped all types of controllers, including Thunderbolt, into the ATD and kept the price the same. They have subsidized Thunderbolt for over 18 months now and shipped around 30 million Thunderbolt host devices at this point. You'll also note that 3rd party Thunderbolt cables are almost exactly the same price as Apple's, indicating that there is no excessive margin to be found there either.

I'm not sure what more you want Apple to do (except maybe release a $29 Thunderbolt to USB 3.0 adapter for the 2011 Mac owners.) I think most end users who are confused about Thunderbolt just have no pressing need for it. If you don't typically use the ExpressCard slot or video out port on other machines, why would you think you were going to use Thunderbolt?
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 10:10 AM   #141
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Intel has been so ambitious with pushing Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt has a lot of potential - much better than firewire (and USB) because you can increase the throughput by firmware updates and keep the same interface and physical cables.

We probably won't see a USB 4.0 because USB 3.0 basically increased throughput of USB 2.0 by adding more wires. I see USB dying within the next 10 years.

We might see wireless and cloud computing replace most physical cables in time.
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 10:37 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by ctcampbell View Post
Phased out as in still available on iMacs and anything with a thunderbolt port via an adapter?
Yep, and like all the other adapters Apple sells for the technologies it's decided to phase out, you'll have to pay $29-$39 if you wish to continue to use the older technology.
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 10:54 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by PracticalMac View Post
No clap of thunder here.

Its like FireWire all over again. Apple was slow to include, made only 2 products to use it, and it started to loose ground to a much lesser technology, USB.
Tell that to the many music/film/graphic professionals who've invested loads in firewire harddisks, soundcards etc over the years. I agree though, thunderbolt's future doesn't look to rosy. Good old Apple, they sell us 'professional' computers and totally shaft us with the lack of ports provided and remove ones deemed 'old' when people have invested money in supporting products. I'll loose roughly 1000 in investment if I ditched all my firewire devices.

Last edited by jedy; Oct 4, 2012 at 11:11 AM.
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 11:23 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by baryon View Post
PS: Those who have the first computers that had Thunderbolt, your computers will soon go obsolete while you still hadn't even had a chance to connect anything to the Thunderbolt port. Just like the Mini DisplayPort.
Oooooooooh no...I had to buy a TB (displayport?) to DVI adapter just so I could continue to use my external monitor with my late 2011 Macbook Pro. And a TB to HDMI to connect to my TV! Aren't I the lucky one!
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 11:35 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by baryon View Post
What's so bloody complicated in building such a boring and basic thing as a hub? I mean this should be the type of cheap stuff you buy in a pound shop along with USB hubs and cheap SD card readers.

Cables should be getting more versatile, cheaper and easier to use, and not the exact opposite!

I'm sticking to my USB 2.0 and the hub I bought for 1 thankyouverymuch!

PS: Those who have the first computers that had Thunderbolt, your computers will soon go obsolete while you still hadn't even had a chance to connect anything to the Thunderbolt port. Just like the Mini DisplayPort.
Note that it is not simple to build these docks. These are not simply hubs. They are doing complex translation of the information poured through the thunderbolt port. They are acting like PCI CARDS in doing so.

So show how difficult it is, just look at USB 3.0 Express34 Cards. They cause a hard freeze/crash on the MacBook Pro when they are connected to a USB 3.0 HUB. If these cards can't do USB 3.0 correctly, then the Thunderbolt Docks are going to have a difficult time doing USB 3.0 correctly.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by elec999 View Post
Its funny how apple people are willing to pay for overpriced crap. You could buy a pc laptop or even close to an ipad with the price of this docking station. But then again in the enterprise world a docxking station can reach $200.
Apple is a luxury brand.

These docks are fully worth their price. They are cheap for what they do.

Sure you can get a cheap PC for the price of a thunderbolt dock. But then again, it is a CHEAP PC.
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 11:48 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by theBB View Post
Or there is no demand for it. For most people even USB3 is overkill, Firewire800 has been god enough for video editing and ethernet is the medium for networked storage in business environments. I am sure there are niche applications that can use TB here and there, but there is no point in making a hub that only a thousand people need.
This argument is old. USB 3.0 is not overkill when a lowly 5400rpm portable HD has over 2x the transfer speed of USB 2.0 let alone 7200rpm/SSD drives. Not all of us just use our MBP/MBA's only for Fbook and email. Some of us do WORK on our machines and need to BACKUP gigs and gigs of data which is PAINFULLY SLOW on USB 2.0. That's why many of us bought into the TBOLT hype and were salivating at the thought of these docking stations.
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 12:26 PM   #147
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This argument is old. USB 3.0 is not overkill when a lowly 5400rpm portable HD has over 2x the transfer speed of USB 2.0 let alone 7200rpm/SSD drives. Not all of us just use our MBP/MBA's only for Fbook and email. Some of us do WORK on our machines and need to BACKUP gigs and gigs of data which is PAINFULLY SLOW on USB 2.0. That's why many of us bought into the TBOLT hype and were salivating at the thought of these docking stations.
Don't you wish you knew the meaning of the word "most"? How many of "you" are there, backing up gigs ad gigs of data frequently? I bet there are vastly more people working with spreadsheets, presentations and documents, which are only megs of data rather than gigs. I bet most people do not back up at all and those who do, back up in the background where they don't even notice or care about how long it takes.

By the way, double the USB speed gets you into FW800 territory, actually probably more as it is a sustained rate. Yet, sales of FW800 was miniscule compared to USB2. Now you want to jump right over FW800, pass by USB3 and wonder why Tbolt disks are nowhere to be found. Good luck with your wait, I hope you are not holding your breath.
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 12:31 PM   #148
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I connected a Seagate GoFlex dock to my tb port and daisy chained an HDMI adapter for a display. Tb cable costs $49 although the HDMI adapter was fairly cheap. GoFlex uses a standard non-proprietary SATA interface so it makes a good hack for raw drives. I don't know if it's any faster than USB3, but video editing in FCPX and Premiere Pro CS6 are fine. This solution works for me, otherwise I'd be impatient for all these delayed hubs.
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 01:31 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by aloshka View Post
Why is it so hard to develop a dock that just simply has USB, and dual DVI outputs.. That's it. I don't want to connect two thunderbolts to my laptop, but just one + power is ideal.
The snag is that AFAIK the TB peripheral controller chip only extracts one DisplayPort channel from the Thunderbolt signal. That's why, e.g., you can't connect a legacy monitor to the TB display, since that uses the DisplayPort signal to drive it's own screen. So having dual DVI is a problem - and having even one DVI means that you can't hang a legacy monitor or Displayport-to-whatever dongle off the pass-through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ovrlrd View Post
They should have made two docks, one with just USB3 + Gigabit Ethernet, and another with all their fancy trimmings.
Thunderbolt controllers and cables are expensive. Putting it all in a box with a PSU (given that Mac users will want something nice in brushed aluminium) also imposes a fixed cost. Adding 'fancy trimmings' to that just involves bog-standard PCIe-to-whatever chips and connectors that are used on cheap PCIe add-on cards - if you're building a dock, then it makes sense to throw them all in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by faroZ06 View Post
Maybe pros would adopt Thunderbolt more if it was actually on the Mac Pro.
The Mac Pro needs Thunderbolt about as much as it needs a PCMCIA/ExpressCard slot: Thunderbolt is external PCIe with a limited number of channels - the Mac Pro has a bunch of full-fat internal PCIe slots with better bandwidth than TB.

The Unique Selling Point of Thunderbolt is that it can add near-PCIe-level expansion potential to small-form-factor and laptop systems. While it would be nice on a Mac Pro, it's not as essential as some people seem to think.

The first people who benefit from Thunderbolt will be the ones who really needed the ExpressCard slot in the Late Lamented 17" MBP and older 15" MBPs - video people, in particular. You can see this from the sort of products that Matrox, Black Magic etc. launched first.

I think Apple have done a poor job of marketing Thunderbolt for what it is, with lots of people seeing it as a competitor for USB3 rather than a replacement for ExpressCard. They could also promote the 'dock' idea by producing their own, with USB3, FireWire, GB Ethernet and a MagSafe PSU - plus the essential passthru - in a nice Jony Ive block of metal.
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Old Oct 4, 2012, 01:40 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by theluggage View Post
I think Apple have done a poor job of marketing Thunderbolt for what it is, with lots of people seeing it as a competitor for USB3 rather than a replacement for ExpressCard. They could also promote the 'dock' idea by producing their own, with USB3, FireWire, GB Ethernet and a MagSafe PSU - plus the essential passthru - in a nice Jony Ive block of metal.
Perhaps the biggest selling point of the TB display is its ports. I don't seem them producing a standalone dock simply for this reason.
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