Devs warned apple about maps...

Apples pride won't allow them to go back to google. The would rather sink the ship than tuck their tails between their legs.

Apple maps needed to happen. The launch was botched sure, but at least it is out there and in real world testing.

Relying on google for a mapping service was never going to fly long term.

I am somewhat surprised they didn't just switch to bing maps in the interim though.

Honestly at first I was disappointed because the detail seemed much lower than google maps. I also didn't understand how the traffic was displayed.

I'm a geography major focusing on map interpretation this semester (so I have a bit of knowledge). After using it for the past week, I really do like it. Much smoother than google, colors are brighter. The map really opens up when you zoom in a tad. The traffic is good but people need to understand it doesn't hold your hand and tell you where there is NO traffic. It just tells you where there IS traffic. I've seen on the fly updates (ie traffic lines easier to read on a daily basis).

I'm not taking anything away from users who experience problems, they are there, but its not as big a disaster as everyone is making it out to be. It's actually quite good. And will only get better.

Ps I've used the turn by turn several times, intentionally messing with it by changing directions etc, and it has been absolutely solid. Never drove me off a cliff or down a non existent street or anything. I do live in Los Angeles though where the world moves forward, unlike a some rural places that sit stagnant for 20 years.

throAU said:

Apple maps needed to happen. The launch was botched sure, but at least it is out there and in real world testing.

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And if it had been labeled as a Beta, the signal to noise ratio would have been a lot lower. But suggesting it was complete and ready for Prime Time was a huge mistake.

throAU said:

Relying on google for a mapping service was never going to fly long term.

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Probably true given the corporate hostility between the two companies.

throAU said:

I am somewhat surprised they didn't just switch to bing maps in the interim though.

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Or just kept Google Maps as the default and allowed Apple Maps to be in a real-world beta mode in the interim.

throAU said:

Apple maps needed to happen. The launch was botched sure, but at least it is out there and in real world testing.

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Some people just don't read posted articles :

Indeed, based on our interviews with a number of Apple employees, the issue was understood—at least on the engineering level. "It was clear to anybody who would use it, even in the iOS betas, that Maps looks pretty bad," one source told Ars. "If someone had showed that to Steve, he would've said, 'This looks like ****.' He would have actually said that. Tim did the right thing by apologizing, but the better thing would've been, like, 'We can't ship this.'"

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Even Apple employees agree that what was ship shouldn't have shipped in the first place. Everyone who's done software dev knows : You could have had this out there in real world testing while not officially shipping it out. It's not a black or white thing, it didn't "need to happen".

Sorry maybe you misunderstood me.

I didn't mean that "it had to happen like this".


I meant more from the point of view of apple needed to get off google maps one way or another (eventually). Relying on a competitor's mapping system is just leaving yourself in a very compromising position.

I agree, the way it was done was a disaster, and it should not have happened the way it did.


the "at least they have real world testing" comment was more of a "at least they can salvage something from the wreckage" comment, rather than being an agreement with the way they botched this.


And I don't believe it would not have been possible to screw this up with Steve at the helm. MobileME happened. Antennagate happened. Ping happened. Lion happened. As did a bunch of other poor or botched projects.

How apple handles this and reacts to this disaster will be an indication of how well they can survive without steve.

Will the next article be "Users: Google ignored our warnings about the privacy issues." because I warned them about the issues two months ago? It isn't worth it.

throAU said:

Apple maps needed to happen. The launch was botched sure, but at least it is out there and in real world testing.

Relying on google for a mapping service was never going to fly long term.

I am somewhat surprised they didn't just switch to bing maps in the interim though.

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Yep, so now they are relying on TomTom, Yelp, etc. which is as bad if not worse. These companies could do the same thing Google did and increase their prices. Sure, they are in more control of the product than they were before, and sadly, the worst part of it is the part they took control over, which is putting together all of that purchased data.

BoxerGT2.5 said:

Apples pride won't allow them to go back to google. The would rather sink the ship than tuck their tails between their legs.

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Not sure if pride has anything to do with it. Apple needed another solution because Google was saving the best of their "maps" features for the Android platform.

Apple shouldn't be blamed for finding their own way... just taking so long to do something they knew they'd have to do one day.

The zooming and scaling on Apple's Maps is good. Everything else is crap. I dislike the colours, they are too vibrant.

I wish Google would release their map app soon. I don't think I'll ever use Apple's Maps again. Google's will always be superior - they have so much more data than Apple. I couldn't care about 3D maps, it's just eye candy. I want maps that are the most accurate you'll get, and that are updated on the fly. Google sorts map glitches/bugs when reported so quickly.

This is Apple v Microsoft all over again. The two can live together, and I use services from both. Being in the Apple ecosystem is nice for some things, but not when Apple ****'s up like this.

throAU said:

I meant more from the point of view of apple needed to get off google maps one way or another (eventually). Relying on a competitor's mapping system is just leaving yourself in a very compromising position.

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Not if you can't match their efforts. In that case you're taking advantage of their work.

And Apple clearly cannot get anywhere near Google's efforts. Not even in the same ballpark.

DimeTech said:

I do live in Los Angeles though where the world moves forward, unlike a some rural places that sit stagnant for 20 years.

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I think this is a good point. A lot of people having problems live in the suburbs and other bfe areas, I haven't had much trouble in the city.

Orange Crane said:

I think this is a good point. A lot of people having problems live in the suburbs and other bfe areas, I haven't had much trouble in the city.

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Cool, I can advertise my central London flat as having rural views apparently.

It's notable that people who think central Tokyo and London are "suburbs" are people with poor enough geographic awareness to think Apple's Maps are good.

I used it this weekend in Princeville, Kauai. It worked rather well the whole time, except in the town of Hanalei. I asked for directions to Dollar Rent-A-Car and it took me directly to the front door without a hiccup. I even got better directions from Maps than I did with my Tom-Tom GPS, which was odd. Overall I am pretty happy with it for what it is.

It will get better with more use and updates, one drawback is it told me to drive through the middle of the international marketplace in Waikiki, that could have been disasterous.

throAU said:

And I don't believe it would not have been possible to screw this up with Steve at the helm. MobileME happened. Antennagate happened. Ping happened. Lion happened.

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I disagree about Lion, I liked it very much. But as to your other points, they are all contained in the 2 Ars pieces, the one linked here, and the previous interview with Apple engineers. So in essence, you're only repeating the same things they are, except they think Steve would have killed maps.

There's also quite a bit of internal stuff from those sources about how Tim has had to deal a lot with the "What would Steve had done ?" questioning internally, even after Steve said never to ask that question.

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Krazy Bill said:

Google was saving the best of their "maps" features for the Android platform.

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Why does everyone repeat this when sources have stated the opposite : Google did offer vector maps, turn by turn and other Android "exclusives" to Apple, Apple just didn't like the terms.

DimeTech said:

The traffic is good but people need to understand it doesn't hold your hand and tell you where there is NO traffic. It just tells you where there IS traffic. I've seen on the fly updates (ie traffic lines easier to read on a daily basis).

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That's not the real problem with the current traffic feature. The big problem is that with the limited amount of data that is shown, you can't tell if there is "no traffic" or "no traffic data available."

IMO, a huge issue that makes the current traffic view much less useful.

GoSh4rks said:

That's not the real problem with the current traffic feature. The big problem is that with the limited amount of data that is shown, you can't tell if there is "no traffic" or "no traffic data available."

IMO, a huge issue that makes the current traffic view much less useful.

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I feel you about that. Thats what I thought initially. But I compared google maps vs apple maps traffic at the same time and the reds matched up perfectly, the yellows on google matched with the lighter red hashed line, and the greens were just normal road.

I think what apple is trying to do is only let the user know WHERE there is TRAFFIC. You know, like why do u need to tell me its flowing well when thats what i anticipate anyways. Just tell me where its stopped or slow. On GM, the green lines cover the entire infrastructure when there is no traffic. I could see how that would make it harder to tell which streets are which. I'm not saying apples solution is the most ideal, but it does essentially work, which most people wouldn't even give them that. Ya the hashed lines could be a little thicker but that'll all work itself out in due time.

I would love to see a technical test of traffic information (how quickly the info is updated, etc).

But there is now so much information on traffic on both google and apple maps (reds, oranges, yellows, reds) that it is simply too difficult to "eyeball" the best route. You have to, at some point, let the algorithm decide the route, especially since it has more fine-grained information than just the colors.

I ask myself when this issue comes up: what would I do with the extra info? I like to look at the map with all the traffic info, but I have never made a route decision by looking at the colors on the routes (google's or apple's). I used to let Waze, and now Apple Maps, decide on the best route. I may give it a quick check on Overview, but I largely trust it.

Using google maps for this was a moot point on iOS5 because we didn't have turn by turn.

throAU said:

Relying on google for a mapping service was never going to fly long term.

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Mliii said:

Probably true given the corporate hostility between the two companies.

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I don't understand this thinking. The anomosity was more Jobs vs Schmidt than Apple vs Google. And if you look at history then partners are constantly made between enemies. The biggest instance for tech is the cross licensing between Apple and MS on desktop OS's.

Googles YouTube, Maps and Search are a huge part of most web users lives so to think Apple has no choice but to ditch Google is based more on their arrogance than actually providing what's best for the consumer so IF Apple wanted to keep Google Maps around then they could have found a way. And with Jobs gone then Apple is limiting the user experience since going their own way is not what's in our best interest. (and by "our" i mean "people who care more about the consumer than the company)

Brazuca said:

I would love to see a technical test of traffic information (how quickly the info is updated, etc).

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I suppose anyone could do this themselves from the comfort of their desk, assuming your local DOT has live traffic cams on line. Just before rush hour, load up about 6 or 8 traffic cams, pull out your iPhone, and compare.

Regards,
Tom

The Phazer said:

Cool, I can advertise my central London flat as having rural views apparently.

It's notable that people who think central Tokyo and London are "suburbs" are people with poor enough geographic awareness to think Apple's Maps are good.

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Lets be realistic here. While yes, it should work as advertised in most places, ESP London which is a tier 1 or 2 city if I'm correct, keep in mind that like many products, ESP those by American companies, the United States is priority number 1. We have the most consumers of any nation on the planet and it'd be ignorant to think that companies aren't focused on the United States. No need to get your knickers in a bunch. Just sayin'...

DimeTech said:

Lets be realistic here. While yes, it should work as advertised in most places, ESP London which is a tier 1 or 2 city if I'm correct, keep in mind that like many products, ESP those by American companies, the United States is priority number 1. We have the most consumers of any nation on the planet and it'd be ignorant to think that companies aren't focused on the United States. No need to get your knickers in a bunch. Just sayin'...

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I'm sure Apple would be overjoyed to no longer receive the significant majority of it's revenue any more, which originates from outside the US.

The Phazer said:

I'm sure Apple would be overjoyed to no longer receive the significant majority of it's revenue any more, which originates from outside the US.

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Not very intelligent to compare 1 country to the field for purposes of revenue. Also funny that you're implying international people would cease to buy apple products because they cant see their house on a map.

DimeTech said:

I feel you about that. Thats what I thought initially. But I compared google maps vs apple maps traffic at the same time and the reds matched up perfectly, the yellows on google matched with the lighter red hashed line, and the greens were just normal road.

I think what apple is trying to do is only let the user know WHERE there is TRAFFIC. You know, like why do u need to tell me its flowing well when thats what i anticipate anyways. Just tell me where its stopped or slow. On GM, the green lines cover the entire infrastructure when there is no traffic. I could see how that would make it harder to tell which streets are which. I'm not saying apples solution is the most ideal, but it does essentially work, which most people wouldn't even give them that. Ya the hashed lines could be a little thicker but that'll all work itself out in due time.

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You're not getting it. If I want to know if a particular route I want to take has traffic on it or not, I would much rather have the map explicitly show me there isn't traffic than have it show me nothing at all and leave me no better off than before I opened the maps app - especially if I am in an unknown-to-me area.