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Old Oct 16, 2012, 04:56 PM   #126
JAT
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Originally Posted by Chupa Chupa View Post
Two years old is a lifetime. Apple has 60% of the tablet market. Android the other 40%. People have $100s and more invested in iOS and Android apps. Not to mention time spent learning and getting comfortable with those OSes. People are not going to be so quick to switch without a compelling reason, and Surface offers none. It's not bad, it's just too late.
I would say that MS has undercut Apple by $100, a safe amount, but noticeable. They have also made enough space to drop the price, although they don't often do this. Good placement vs the leader. I'd say they are ignoring Android completely with this pricing. It's actually pretty obvious. And downright MS-like. (or Apple-like, if you prefer)

Also, see single word below. I think there are many chomping at the bit to have a real access to Office docs on a tablet. We'll see.
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Originally Posted by IJ Reilly View Post
You leave out a couple of important facts. First, the tablet market is still growing by leaps and bounds, while the PC market is stagnant. Microsoft may not have been in the initial wave, but then neither was Google. It is not a settled market. Second, if Microsoft's Windows 8 strategy works (remains to be seen), the market for Surface apps will be legitimate. In fact the availability of Office alone will be enough for some people to consider a Surface.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 04:56 PM   #127
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That stock children laughing soundbyte at the end! I've been listening out for it in adverts for well over a decade! Its like Willhelms secret cousin!
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 04:57 PM   #128
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I know this is a Mac forum but I thought that people would be happy with the price?

Double the storage and RAM of the iPad and the ability to ACTUALLY multitask for the same price as the iPad 16gb...

Seems like a bargain if you ask me! If Windows RT is anything like Windows Phone 7.5 it will be as slick as hell. Windows Phone software blows iOS out of the water in terms of running on low power devices with fluidity.

Its not Microsoft's fault there are no apps yet, you got to start somewhere...

I know iPad has retina but I had iPad 1 and 3, and yes I noticed a difference but it made no diffidence at all to how I used it.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 05:01 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Chupa Chupa View Post
Two years old is a lifetime. Apple has 60% of the tablet market.
Didn't stop Apple from entering the Smartphone market and being successful.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAT View Post
I would say that MS has undercut Apple by $100, a safe amount, but noticeable. They have also made enough space to drop the price, although they don't often do this. Good placement vs the leader. I'd say they are ignoring Android completely with this pricing. It's actually pretty obvious. And downright MS-like. (or Apple-like, if you prefer)

Also, see single word below. I think there are many chomping at the bit to have a real access to Office docs on a tablet. We'll see.
Oddly enough, my co-worker is chomping at the bit for a tablet that will run the full Photoshop install. I told him I doubt the RT version will, but perhaps the Pro when it's released.

I think many people have key apps in mind that they would love to have on a tablet, but they just don't get when using the iPad. Office would be good for me, but it's rare when I need it away from work. Lightroom might be a good one, but I don't think I want to use it on a small screen. I already hate using it on my 13" laptop.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 05:02 PM   #130
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I switched to Apple about 7 years ago as their products were the easiest to use and all integrated and worked well with each other. Not sure the same is true today and Microsoft is starting to look like a very attractive option again.

I've held back from upgrading to the iPhone 5 and iPad 3 to see what Apple come up with and so far it's not a lot. The new dock connector is a pain (more expense to replace everything), the new map app a disaster, the iOS and OS X interfaces are dated.

Apple have got away with a lot of stuff as they didn't have any real competition. That's no longer true and unless they up the ante I'll be switching back to Microsoft in the New Year. The Surface pricing looks fine to me and having a phone, tablet and laptop running pretty much the same OS is very appealing.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 05:10 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by k995 View Post
It hasnt? 30-40% in a year isnt too bad I would say.

And you cant use it both ways, either apps help or they dont .
It's more like 2 years. Given that Android is 68% of the smartphone market compared to iPhone's 17% or so, the disparity in market share between the iPad and Android tablets is astounding. Plus, consider that half of "Android's" tablet market share is the Kindle Fire, which doesn't even have access to Google Play, and is really a different platform altogether.

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Originally Posted by k995 View Post
Metro apps quality is fine .

Well it hasnt been released yet, but MS is pushing development and lets face it most people dont use hundreds of apps they use a few if those are present quickly, the 500 000 other apps barely matter .


Not just that but a smooth transition between desktop/laptop and tablet, now a tablet feels more like a seperate piece, better integration between the 2 could be key.
I agree Metro app quality is there. That's why Microsoft is following the Apple approach, rather than Google's approach (or even the Windows Desktop approach) with the Windows Store.

Surface could be very compelling. I actually think the pricing is OK. Ballmer said as much a few months ago when he said that $300-$800 is the sweet spot. The most common Surface units will fall in the middle to top half of that range.

What wouldn't surprise me is if all 3 platforms co-exist (4 if you count Kindle Fire separately as I do). Kindle Fire and the iPad Mini may dominate the lower end. iPad and Surface will share the mid-range and high end. Pure Android will likely tend toward the lower end but will be present in the mid-range as well.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 05:13 PM   #132
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One thing is for certain: However many they sell, virtually every Surface Microsoft moves will take a bite out of one of the Windows OEMs. If the Surface is successful, I can see it driving the Windows OEMs further into the arms of Google.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 05:13 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Geckotek View Post
Didn't stop Apple from entering the Smartphone market and being successful.
Except there was nothing like the iPhone available in the smartphone market at the time. The Surface is just an iPad clone at this point. The only thing interesting about the Surface is the Metro interface and maybe the keyboard smart cover.

I really like the concept of Windows Phone. The idea that your phone would present information and update that information live on the home screen seems futuristic to me. However, the apps on Windows Phone are just not as good as iOS. I have a feeling it'll be the same with Windows RT.

I'm going to wait to see how the Windows RT App Store works out before I invest my money in a Surface or Windows RT device.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 05:14 PM   #134
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Apple introduced iPad at the exact same price. At the time, it was also "unproven." People mocked the name and questioned whether there was a purpose for this kind of device. There were also a very limited amount of iPad-native apps (I do not count pixel-doubled iPhone apps).

The entry price for the current model iPad remains $500. The iPad was and continues to be a hit.

The biggest thing MS has to do to get into the game is battle the notion that the only tablet worth buying is the iPad, which seems to be consumer sentiment. Microsoft has begun doing this with some decent-looking commercials as well as touting the Surface-exclusive features such as the admittedly slick cover/keyboard.
That there were few native apps is not as relevant as the fact that millions of people were intimately familiar with the iPad's little brother, the iPhone. As a mechanism to sell a new class of product such as a tablet I doubt anyone could beat saturating a necessity market (mobile phone) with a near clone, as a means of invading mindshare. Once people were hooked on their iPhones, buying an iPad was a no brainer. Unfortunately for MS they have to build the market from near zero with regards to a touch based OS. I do not know if Apple were lucky in the way things turned out, but in hindsight the evolution of a market from iPod + music to iPhone to iPad looks like a stunningly brilliant strategy.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 05:28 PM   #135
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 05:30 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by babyj View Post
I switched to Apple about 7 years ago as their products were the easiest to use and all integrated and worked well with each other. Not sure the same is true today and Microsoft is starting to look like a very attractive option again.

I've held back from upgrading to the iPhone 5 and iPad 3 to see what Apple come up with and so far it's not a lot. The new dock connector is a pain (more expense to replace everything), the new map app a disaster, the iOS and OS X interfaces are dated.
how strange. i switched my dev platform and household to Apple as well, once intel chips made MS dev possible on apple hardware, and still find them to the easiest to use, integrate, and work well w/ each other. i love the new dock connector, the Maps, and find OS X to still be delightful. far more than i enjoy Windows itself. if my experiences are any indicator i have far fewer OS & networking problems than my pure-Windows friends and family.

Quote:
Apple have got away with a lot of stuff as they didn't have any real competition. That's no longer true
WHAT! are you serious? they climbed a mountain of competitors just to get where they are today. now the competitors are climbing the mountain to get to apple, and there have been many causalities thus far.

Quote:
having a phone, tablet and laptop running pretty much the same OS is very appealing.
but they arent the same OS, nor can they run the same software.

words matter.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 05:36 PM   #137
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but they arent the same OS, nor can they run the same software.

words matter.
Yeah, they are, and they can. As of WP8, all versions of Windows run the same kernel, and use the same programming languages.

Only x86 devices are a little different (as in PCs, laptops, and the Surface Pro), as they're capable of running legacy apps, as well as higher end ones targeted at the desktop alongside the new Metro apps.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 05:49 PM   #138
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Except there was nothing like the iPhone available in the smartphone market at the time. The Surface is just an iPad clone at this point. The only thing interesting about the Surface is the Metro interface and maybe the keyboard smart cover.
If you are taking about the Surface RT....maybe. Surface Pro, definately not.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 05:49 PM   #139
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If i didn't know any better, I wouldn't have even known what this ad was about, much less take anything away from it.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 05:51 PM   #140
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nice pricing M$, I guess is another tablet I could buy in a firesale!
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 05:52 PM   #141
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how strange. i switched my dev platform and household to Apple as well, once intel chips made MS dev possible on apple hardware, and still find them to the easiest to use, integrate, and work well w/ each other.
It depends on what your workflow is. A big factor for me is the cloud and Microsoft (and Google) are way ahead of Apple. I've given up on iWork (which is useless for sharing and collaboration) and moved my main email to Google (as iCloud doesn't support external email accounts and the Mac Mail filtering is useless).

Quote:
WHAT! are you serious? they climbed a mountain of competitors just to get where they are today. now the competitors are climbing the mountain to get to apple, and there have been many causalities thus far.
Sure they had competitors but there was no real competition for the iPhone and iPad when they were released - as they were so much better and advanced compared to competitors products. It's only more recently that the competition has had products that really can compete. As a result and with their runaway sales they've become a bit complacent and risk the competition sneaking ahead.

Quote:
but they arent the same OS, nor can they run the same software.
Sure they're not the same OS but they're pretty close. I'm not an expert but I was under the impression apps can be compiled to be compatible with W8 and W8RT. Though whether they're the same OS under the hood isn't really relevant, the interface is pretty much the same which is all users care about.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 05:55 PM   #142
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Not a red herring, I didn't say anybody copied anything. I simply pointed out that it doesn't take innovation to have a wildly successful product.
Yes, it is. It was intended to distract from the argument I made, which is that M$**t copies, they don't innovate, and you pointed out that Apple doesn't either.

You must, if you wish to disprove my argument, first prove that I'm wrong by providing evidence that M$**t does in fact innovate and not copy, and that they are successful not from copying others and being late to the game, but because they didn't copy and in fact innovated all along the way.

You can't prove me wrong by proving another company is wrong as well, but which is successful. That is illogical, and what is called, a logical fallacy, in this case, distraction, otherwise known as a red herring.

In discussion and argument if you can't disprove my arguments, then I win the debate, it's that simple. And logical fallacies prove nothing, so my original point stands.

M$**t will not win with this because they are late and never innovate, they merely use their monopoly status and cash built on copy from day 1 (ever hear of CP/M?). They were a brilliant marketing company (were, not are); they are a monopoly gained but not earned, and they have a cancer that has been eating them for years, and they are slowly dying. I don't believe they will ever turn things around because they never had it to begin with, but that's my opinion and I'd be glad to discuss this further with others.

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Originally Posted by mojothemonkey View Post
I think you jumped the gun on pulling out the old elementary formal logic.
Yeah, logic often times, especially on this forum, falls on deaf ears. Emotion and illogic in the minds of their users always win.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 06:01 PM   #143
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I don't care what anyone says. I want one. And I'm gonna get one

Already have an iPad.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 06:03 PM   #144
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I am really interested in this product. The live tiles idea seems really neat to me. I was hoping for something cheaper to actually have a shot at competing with the ipad. At the end of the day, this will sell. Not apple numbers, but it'll still sell
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 06:03 PM   #145
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I don't care what anyone says. I want one. And I'm gonna get one
And with each new purchase comes free dancing ability and cool/popularity attribute (just like in Sims), so it says in the advertisement.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 06:09 PM   #146
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 06:12 PM   #147
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Hearing those clicks, all I can think of is the little kickstand snapping off after a month of use.
Yep. For me, hearing those clicks, all I could think of was the commercial for the iPad 2 Smart Cover in 2011.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 06:16 PM   #148
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Yeah, logic often times, especially on this forum, falls on deaf ears. Emotion and illogic in the minds of their users always win.
Says the guy who goes on a heated rant about "M$**t" that has no basis in reality beyond the usual tired "but they copppiiieeedddd" spiel.

Yup. Logical. Reasoned. Balanced. That's you to a T.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 06:23 PM   #149
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iOS is making huge headway into enterprise. Yes, enterprise love Win 7, but Surface is Win 8, which enterprise is wary of. Win 7 is likely to continue to be the default business computer OS for another decade, but Apple is capturing the post PC enterprise market.
The difference is with iOS, if a business want their software on a tablet and go for iPad, they will definitely have to re-write for iOS. If they choose to get Surface tablets, if it works on Windows 7, it'll work on Windows 8. Businesses would most likely go for the Professional versions of the tablet, running full Windows.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 06:24 PM   #150
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M$**t will not win with this because they are late and never innovate, they merely use their monopoly status and cash built on copy from day 1 (ever hear of CP/M?). They were a brilliant marketing company (were, not are); they are a monopoly gained but not earned, and they have a cancer that has been eating them for years, and they are slowly dying. I don't believe they will ever turn things around because they never had it to begin with, but that's my opinion and I'd be glad to discuss this further with others.
You get this sort of half right. Microsoft was never a brilliant marketing company. In fact they have rarely been even a middling marketing company. Seems whenever a company enjoys great success somebody is in a big hurry to attribute it all to "marketing," whatever that is.

The real story is far more complicated. An actual monopoly they never had, but by virtue of some amazing historical quirks of fate, they were gifted with huge leveraging opportunities, which they exploited to the max. They were brilliant at exploiting leveraging opportunities, and have struggled historically whenever they were without leveraging opportunities. The only reason why this is important for Surface is because they might just have some leveraging opportunities with this product, and this is something they do know how to do.

For quite a few years under the Ballmer regime the company has drifted, but I think it's fair to say we've seen some more definite direction from them recently. The last flavor of Windows was not terrible on its own merits and the next one will probably be incrementally better. They are plodding, but in a more productive direction. The Surface is a hail mary pass towards the next generation of computing devices, already in progress. They have enough leverage (again, their true forté) to have a fair chance of hitting the target. Which doesn't mean they will, but if nothing else Microsoft is dogged. They can afford to stick with this program and throw hundreds of billions at it, if need be, if they see this as being a big part of their future. You never want to count out Microsoft's determination or resources, ever.

Also, as I've said before, they are at the same time getting right into the faces of the Windows OEMs with this product. The potential significance of this is being overlooked. The more successful the product becomes, the more important this change in direction will be.
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