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Old Oct 29, 2012, 01:37 PM   #76
Black Magic
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Why exactly would someone choose the surface over the iPad? With IOS have capabilities that help in the real world. Examples - I can control the monitoring system in my home. Full control and monitoring. I can adjust my thermostat. Works with my car flawlessly. That's just a few. Is there anything worthwhile that the Surface can do that the iPad can't?

Someone mentioned that Apple is a wall gardened, yet they forget the fact that Microsoft copied that same Wall Garden. You guys are aware of the app approval process that Microsoft has right?
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 01:40 PM   #77
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Why exactly would someone choose the surface over the iPad? With IOS have capabilities that help in the real world. Examples - I can control the monitoring system in my home. Full control and monitoring. I can adjust my thermostat. Works with my car flawlessly. That's just a few. Is there anything worthwhile that the Surface can do that the iPad can't?

Someone mentioned that Apple is a wall gardened, yet they forget the fact that Microsoft copied that same Wall Garden. You guys are aware of the app approval process that Microsoft has right?
You need to be more specific as there are different answers IMO, since this thead is about the surface RT I'll assume you meant that. I'd say the only advantage is Office, otherwise I have to say you are right, why would anyone bother with RT, personally I think it was a huge mistake for RT to even exist out of the phone. Personally (note that means me) I think Office and stylus input are pretty huge advantages, but that's in my personal and business life.

But Surface Pro, and the full Windows 8 Pro devices are a different story. I'd be here forever describing what I can do on them that the ipad cannot do. But why make it a versus discussion? The ipad suits your needs so you are going to buy it and use it. I just never understood the vehemence some people put into telling others their choice is superior.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 01:42 PM   #78
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Why exactly would someone choose the surface over the iPad? With IOS have capabilities that help in the real world. Examples - I can control the monitoring system in my home. Full control and monitoring. I can adjust my thermostat. Works with my car flawlessly. That's just a few. Is there anything worthwhile that the Surface can do that the iPad can't?

Someone mentioned that Apple is a wall gardened, yet they forget the fact that Microsoft copied that same Wall Garden. You guys are aware of the app approval process that Microsoft has right?
Microsoft's tablet vision is a lot closer to a laptop than Apple's. There are not yet the volume of apps available that make RT a compelling choice, but it will get there. Right now some of the big advantages are things like nearly complete Office compatibility and real multi-tasking, which is still a royal pain on iOS. It should be a lot easier to do complex tasks on RT.

There are compelling things with the Surface, the big problem is that as these devices are refined, and especially as we move to the cloud, we become tethered to one particular ecosystem that makes it difficult to leave, no matter what the advantages of other platforms.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 01:43 PM   #79
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The surface says to me, I'm not really a tablet, and don't call me a laptop.
This thing leaves me scratching my head because all I see is redundancy.

Why would I buy this over a Mac air or ultrabook?
Why would I buy this over an Ipad 3/4 or Android tablet?

I understand microsoft theory behind the surface and that is to provide the best of both worlds (tablet and laptop/ ultrabook) into one which is awesome in its self, but if I can't use it in practical ways like I can my ipad (on the plane, toilet, couch, laying on my back, on my lap) without it being cumbersome due to awkward size, with its "way better with touch keys", and not being as powerful as my laptop, then why spend my hard earned money on this thing and add more electronic clutter in my home.....

I am not a gadget whore. Microsoft I personally require better, something much much better. Go back and Design this thing in such a way that gives me a real option to truly replace my current tablet and or laptop with, then we can talk.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 01:44 PM   #80
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You need to be more specific as there are different answers IMO, since this thead is about the surface RT I'll assume you meant that. I'd say the only advantage is Office, otherwise I have to say you are right, why would anyone bother with RT, personally I think it was a huge mistake for RT to even exist out of the phone. Personally (note that means me) I think Office and stylus input are pretty huge advantages, but that's in my personal and business life.

But Surface Pro, and the full Windows 8 Pro devices are a different story. I'd be here forever describing what I can do on them that the ipad cannot do. But why make it a versus discussion? The ipad suits your needs so you are going to buy it and use it. I just never understood the vehemence some people put into telling others their choice is superior.
It's all subjective right? In the end choice is good.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 01:47 PM   #81
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Why exactly would someone choose the surface over the iPad? With IOS have capabilities that help in the real world. Examples - I can control the monitoring system in my home. Full control and monitoring. I can adjust my thermostat. Works with my car flawlessly. That's just a few. Is there anything worthwhile that the Surface can do that the iPad can't?

Someone mentioned that Apple is a wall gardened, yet they forget the fact that Microsoft copied that same Wall Garden. You guys are aware of the app approval process that Microsoft has right?
Everyone is going to be different, but for me it would be Office and form factor combined. It would work for me in a work environment far better than the iPad could. Sadly Office isn't where I'd need it to be, so it's a non starter.

As an all around device, I'd definitely chose the iPad. I don't consume a lot of content on the iPad, so I do find it bizarre when people say it's only a content consumption device.

The other thing that I've just thought about, and would possibly be a dominant reason for me to chose the Surface RT, would be the IT department. Sadly whether I like it or not, IT departments are mostly made up of people who dislike apple for illogical emotive reasons based on conjecture and the misguided belief that you can't like Microsoft and Apple at the same time. Therefore for you must hate Apple and just tell everyone that Apple stuff doesn't work, or can't connect to the network, or best still - causes a security problem. So from a sheer give me an easy life perspective, the Surface has benefits
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 01:52 PM   #82
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It's all subjective right? In the end choice is good.
Wait, you are sounding reasonable here. Nooooo
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 01:54 PM   #83
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Microsoft's tablet vision is a lot closer to a laptop than Apple's. There are not yet the volume of apps available that make RT a compelling choice, but it will get there. Right now some of the big advantages are things like nearly complete Office compatibility and real multi-tasking, which is still a royal pain on iOS. It should be a lot easier to do complex tasks on RT.

There are compelling things with the Surface, the big problem is that as these devices are refined, and especially as we move to the cloud, we become tethered to one particular ecosystem that makes it difficult to leave, no matter what the advantages of other platforms.
So really the only reason to buy the Surface at this point is for Microsoft Office. Also, from the app standpoint, you are buying a product now hoping that in the future things will get better. That's a lot of money spent on hope.

So again, just to clarify, people are spending $499-$599 to have Microsoft Office on a tablet. Anything else that you all find value in the surface?
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 01:57 PM   #84
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So really the only reason to buy the Surface at this point is for Microsoft Office. Also, from the app standpoint, you are buying a product now hoping that in the future things will get better. That's a lot of money spent on hope.

So again, just to clarify, people are spending $499-$599 to have Microsoft Office on a tablet. Anything else that you all find value in the surface?
Yes pretty much, Office. That's a pretty huge plus though in the corporate world. Plus everyone makes so much of the huge app store, but I'd be willing to bet there are a heck of a lot of users who only have a few apps installed, and/or that these apps if not already available on windows will eventually be available. Out of maybe a hundred apps I have purchased over the years theres not really anything I'm missing on Windows, either they have it, or I never really used it. There is so much redundancy and useless apps out there it's hard to put a number on truly useful, universal apps or apps which are must haves. Of course on WinPro the app argument gets soundly demolished.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 01:59 PM   #85
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So really the only reason to buy the Surface at this point is for Microsoft Office. Also, from the app standpoint, you are buying a product now hoping that in the future things will get better. That's a lot of money spent on hope.

So again, just to clarify, people are spending $499-$599 to have Microsoft Office on a tablet. Anything else that you all find value in the surface?
You skipped over my other points in order to make yours. RT has a different multi-tasking method than iOS, including the ability to view apps side by side. That's, paired with a real keyboard will make doing complex tasks far easier.

I own a ton of Apple devices, and have an iPad 4 on the way, but there are definitely times that I get really frustrated at how difficult it is to do relatively simple things. I put up with that because 95% of the time I spend on the iPad I don't need to do that stuff, and the reliability and simplicity makes that a worthwhile tradeoff. I can certainly see the appeal of an alternative though.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 02:05 PM   #86
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Yes pretty much, Office. That's a pretty huge plus though in the corporate world. Plus everyone makes so much of the huge app store, but I'd be willing to bet there are a heck of a lot of users who only have a few apps installed, and/or that these apps if not already available on windows will eventually be available. Out of maybe a hundred apps I have purchased over the years theres not really anything I'm missing on Windows, either they have it, or I never really used it. There is so much redundancy and useless apps out there it's hard to put a number on truly useful, universal apps or apps which are must haves. Of course on WinPro the app argument gets soundly demolished.
WinPro kinda levels the playing field app wise but in a different nature. A good example of that would be the UPS app in IOS. Easy and intuitive. On WinPro8, I'd probably just have to bring up the website which is cool too but not the same.

Microsoft Office is huge in the corporate world. No point even disputing that. However, Microsoft already stated that Office would be released on other platforms in the near future. If thats the case, is there any need for Surface RT?

Surface Pro is a different animal. I'll leave that alone until its released.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 02:08 PM   #87
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WinPro kinda levels the playing field app wise but in a different nature. A good example of that would be the UPS app in IOS. Easy and intuitive. On WinPro8, I'd probably just have to bring up the website which is cool too but not the same.

Microsoft Office is huge in the corporate world. No point even disputing that. However, Microsoft already stated that Office would be released on other platforms in the near future. If thats the case, is there any need for Surface RT?

Surface Pro is a different animal. I'll leave that alone until its released.
I can't argue much with you on RT, personally I just think it was a huge mistake and will end up hurting Microsoft. Some will buy them, but they will be a totally niche product. I don't get Microsoft sometimes, how much more obvious could it be?
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 02:09 PM   #88
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You skipped over my other points in order to make yours. RT has a different multi-tasking method than iOS, including the ability to view apps side by side. That's, paired with a real keyboard will make doing complex tasks far easier.

I own a ton of Apple devices, and have an iPad 4 on the way, but there are definitely times that I get really frustrated at how difficult it is to do relatively simple things. I put up with that because 95% of the time I spend on the iPad I don't need to do that stuff, and the reliability and simplicity makes that a worthwhile tradeoff. I can certainly see the appeal of an alternative though.
I left out the Multitasking because your comment on it surprised me. It's so easy to switch back and forth between application on IOS. What exactly is the issue here you are seeing? Surface can display multiple apps side by side? I have to check that out because I didn't think that was possible on Windows 8.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 02:10 PM   #89
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WinPro kinda levels the playing field app wise but in a different nature. A good example of that would be the UPS app in IOS. Easy and intuitive. On WinPro8, I'd probably just have to bring up the website which is cool too but not the same.
They have a universal package tracker app setting in the marketplace right now.

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Microsoft Office is huge in the corporate world. No point even disputing that. However, Microsoft already stated that Office would be released on other platforms in the near future. If thats the case, is there any need for Surface RT?
If MS released Office for the iPad right now? Assuming it runs decently enough and offers up enough functionality there, then no, there aren't that many reasons to choose an RT. But I doubt they're going to give away their trump card so early in the game. By near future, they might mean 6-7 years from now, once MS has established itself in the mobile game, and can afford to risk earning some extra income by offering their products on the competitors platforms.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 02:14 PM   #90
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I left out the Multitasking because your comment on it surprised me. It's so easy to switch back and forth between application on IOS. What exactly is the issue here you are seeing? Surface can display multiple apps side by side? I have to check that out because I didn't think that was possible on Windows 8.
Multi-tasking is great in iOS as concerns battery life. As concerns productivity, it sucks. Sometimes you really just need to see two things next to one another. Even on the iPad with gestures enabled, it's not the same thing to have to constantly leave your main window in order to attend to a chat, or to have to keep switching back and forth from a reference document. Not to mention the fact that the automatic memory management means that the data in the app you leave is always at risk of being wiped out, or that the app effectively has to re-start each time you leave and come back to it. I'm hopeful it will be much, much better with the power inside the iPad 4, but it's the general model that needs modernizing.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 02:15 PM   #91
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The other thing that I've just thought about, and would possibly be a dominant reason for me to chose the Surface RT, would be the IT department. Sadly whether I like it or not, IT departments are mostly made up of people who dislike apple for illogical emotive reasons based on conjecture and the misguided belief that you can't like Microsoft and Apple at the same time. Therefore for you must hate Apple and just tell everyone that Apple stuff doesn't work, or can't connect to the network, or best still - causes a security problem. So from a sheer give me an easy life perspective, the Surface has benefits
As someone who owns an IT services and support company, I don't think is necessarily true. I will say, however, that in my experience the vast majority of IT people are either technically inept, socially inept, or both - which can make the above certainly seem true in many cases.

That being said, there certainly are legitimate reasons why IT departments would choose not to deploy OS X in the enterprise - it's an absolute nightmare to try and support. Say what you will about Microsoft, but they know their market and their legacy support is impressive, especially given the amount of 3rd party integration they have to deal with. Apple doesn't have to do that, and their legacy support is, well, pretty much nonexistent. Not only that, but they change things around constantly without documenting the changes (google is also notorious for this). Ever tried to get and keep OS X connected to a DFS share? Nightmare. They finally fixed it in 10.6.8 only to kill the performance. So you can use it, but you have to wait 2 minutes every time you click on something lol. It goes on and on.

iOS is a different story, however. The iPhone and iPad are actually our recommended activesync devices and have been ever since iOS4. Being a religious zealot about tech is ridiculous, as are many of the fanbois we've seen in these Surface threads spouting the silliest criticisms - all of which applied to Apple a few years ago with rev1 of the iPad. Choice is good. Competition is good.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 02:18 PM   #92
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They have a universal package tracker app setting in the marketplace right now.



If MS released Office for the iPad right now? Assuming it runs decently enough and offers up enough functionality there, then no, there aren't that many reasons to choose an RT. But I doubt they're going to give away their trump card so early in the game. By near future, they might mean 6-7 years from now, once MS has established itself in the mobile game, and can afford to risk earning some extra income by offering their products on the competitors platforms.
I think I read somewhere that sometime next year the suite will be released for IOS. Possibly Q1 or Q2.

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/10/10/...in-march-2013/

Take that link with a grain of salt. although the image looks legit.....
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 02:23 PM   #93
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I think I read somewhere that sometime next year the suite will be released for IOS. Possibly Q1 or Q2.

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/10/10/...in-march-2013/

Take that link with a grain of salt. although the image looks legit.....
Yes it's been ready for some time. MS has been sitting on it in anticipation of their tablet releases. They will release it eventually because Office is their cash cow and it will make them a ton on iOS - but they need to try and establish their own ecosystem a little bit first.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 02:39 PM   #94
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I think I read somewhere that sometime next year the suite will be released for IOS. Possibly Q1 or Q2.

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/10/10/...in-march-2013/

Take that link with a grain of salt. although the image looks legit.....
Yeah, it's using the old Office logo, but it does look pretty convincing.

It's possible what we're seeing is a sort of Office Lite style app for the iPad that could be used for viewing various documents rather than the entire suite itself. Something that's more supplementary than fully functional.

Doing anything more would be dense. As. Hell on MS' part. They've done some boneheaded stuff in the past, but I just can't believe they'd dump tons of time and cash into producing a great alternative to the iPad, then taking it out back and putting it down like 'ole Yeller not even 6 months later by releasing the biggest (current) draw to the platform elsewhere. It'd be...just...duummmmbbb.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 02:54 PM   #95
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As someone who owns an IT services and support company, I don't think is necessarily true. I will say, however, that in my experience the vast majority of IT people are either technically inept, socially inept, or both - which can make the above certainly seem true in many cases.

That being said, there certainly are legitimate reasons why IT departments would choose not to deploy OS X in the enterprise - it's an absolute nightmare to try and support. Say what you will about Microsoft, but they know their market and their legacy support is impressive, especially given the amount of 3rd party integration they have to deal with. Apple doesn't have to do that, and their legacy support is, well, pretty much nonexistent. Not only that, but they change things around constantly without documenting the changes (google is also notorious for this). Ever tried to get and keep OS X connected to a DFS share? Nightmare. They finally fixed it in 10.6.8 only to kill the performance. So you can use it, but you have to wait 2 minutes every time you click on something lol. It goes on and on.

iOS is a different story, however. The iPhone and iPad are actually our recommended activesync devices and have been ever since iOS4. Being a religious zealot about tech is ridiculous, as are many of the fanbois we've seen in these Surface threads spouting the silliest criticisms - all of which applied to Apple a few years ago with rev1 of the iPad. Choice is good. Competition is good.
I appreciate your points, and my job is to sell communications solutions into IT mangers. So I recognise what you are saying, and I do get it.

My bug has always been when you do come across people who legitimately just say a Mac won't do something with no knowledge of the OS.

I use my laptop, unsupported, and as most apps these days are web based it works fine. I VPN in using a Junos client, and use Mail, calendar, and address book as my Outlook alternatives. I genuinely wish Outlook on the Mac was better, but in it's current guise I prefer the native apps from Apple. And for the single programme I use that there is no mac alternative, I use VM Ware and windows 7.

The only issue I've come across is a VB problem in excel, as I'm unsupported though I just have to live with the fact it doesn't work, which does kinda suck.

But very valid points that you bring up.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 02:57 PM   #96
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I appreciate your points, and my job is to sell communications solutions into IT mangers. So I recognise what you are saying, and I do get it.

My bug has always been when you do come across people who legitimately just say a Mac won't do something with no knowledge of the OS.

I use my laptop, unsupported, and as most apps these days are web based it works fine. I VPN in using a Junos client, and use Mail, calendar, and address book as my Outlook alternatives. I genuinely wish Outlook on the Mac was better, but in it's current guise I prefer the native apps from Apple. And for the single programme I use that there is no mac alternative, I use VM Ware and windows 7.

The only issue I've come across is a VB problem in excel, as I'm unsupported though I just have to live with the fact it doesn't work, which does kinda suck.

But very valid points that you bring up.
Yes, I also wish Outlook 2011 was better - I have a feeling what's coming next will bring pretty close parity. It's also nice having a full blown Lync client for Mac now too.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 03:02 PM   #97
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I have had every generation iPad, and trust me, there is a ton you can do on the Surface RT that you can't on the iPad. And I'm not just talking about apps, I'm talking about the entire approach, the hardware limitations, artificial software and access limitations, etc.

I think it's hilarious that people are passing judgment on Windows 8 72 hours after its release. Yes it's different. So was going to Intel chips and the fanbois cried foul over that one for a while too, but I rather think it was the right choice. Having had Windows 8 on my MBP for months I still didn't really get it until sitting down with the Surface - now it's starting to make sense. MS isn't as stupid as they seem sometimes.
Remind me of all these great things I can't do with my iPad? Be specific please....

Just so you know I'm expecting a lot of technical stuff a vast majority of the industry wouldn't even know about - I'm not saying Win8 RT/Surface RT doesn't have its place, just saying I don't think its as vastly marketable and won't be as widely popular as iOS/iPad because there really isn't anything you can't do on the iPad.

Again - feel free to be specific. As I never ran across these mythical uses for my N7 I'd be interested to hear this from the Win8 side.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 03:09 PM   #98
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Remind me of all these great things I can't do with my iPad? Be specific please....
Office? Being able to type up a document or read a webpage while having your email and twitter pinned to the side while you read a webpage or type a document so you don't have to switch between fullscreen apps to get your updates?

Listen, I don't think the Surface is an absolute iPad killer. Maybe one day, but right now it's more potential than actuality. What's already there is great, though it still has a long road ahead of it before it can match the iDevices on app selection, ecosystem, and all that excellent stuff.

So why buy one? There are enough compelling reasons to consider one over the iPad depending on what you intend on using it for. But the full package isn't quite there yet. It's still very much an office worker/early adopters platform.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 03:19 PM   #99
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Office? Being able to type up a document or read a webpage while having your email and twitter pinned to the side while you read a webpage or type a document so you don't have to switch between fullscreen apps to get your updates?

Listen, I don't think the Surface is an absolute iPad killer. Maybe one day, but right now it's more potential than actuality. What's already there is great, though it still has a long road ahead of it before it can match the iDevices on app selection, ecosystem, and all that excellent stuff.

So why buy one? There are enough compelling reasons to consider one over the iPad depending on what you intend on using it for. But the full package isn't quite there yet. It's still very much an office worker/early adopters platform.
Sure - agree with most all of the post. I've already posted the multi-tasking is a very convenient feature. But Apple has it's own office suite just as powerful/useful as MS Office imo.

Plus if I get a twitter update I could have it push to notification center (which I don't) and view it from there without leaving the app. Same with email (which I do have push turned on). And while typing a document and researching would be useful at the same time, I don't really see how a four-finger swipe to the next app (say twitter) or a switch really hurts as you cant read twitter AND look at a webpage at the same time - unless each eye moves independently....

I dunno - my use case is relatively basic, albeit constant in that I ALWAYS have my iPad with me. I've never wished I could watch a video with my twitter feed up because a) it takes away screen space from an already small screen - generally speaking and b) if I'm watching a movie/video, I'm watching a movie/video. Don't really look to distract myself with twitter - and it I wanna check twitter, I won't do it while watching a video. Unless of course I'm vegging out in front of the TV and have my iPad in hand.
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 04:16 PM   #100
Black Magic
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrswizzle View Post
Sure - agree with most all of the post. I've already posted the multi-tasking is a very convenient feature. But Apple has it's own office suite just as powerful/useful as MS Office imo.

Plus if I get a twitter update I could have it push to notification center (which I don't) and view it from there without leaving the app. Same with email (which I do have push turned on). And while typing a document and researching would be useful at the same time, I don't really see how a four-finger swipe to the next app (say twitter) or a switch really hurts as you cant read twitter AND look at a webpage at the same time - unless each eye moves independently....

I dunno - my use case is relatively basic, albeit constant in that I ALWAYS have my iPad with me. I've never wished I could watch a video with my twitter feed up because a) it takes away screen space from an already small screen - generally speaking and b) if I'm watching a movie/video, I'm watching a movie/video. Don't really look to distract myself with twitter - and it I wanna check twitter, I won't do it while watching a video. Unless of course I'm vegging out in front of the TV and have my iPad in hand.
Damn, you making me want to run out an buy an iPad.
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