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Old Oct 30, 2012, 09:27 PM   #126
j_maddison
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronvan View Post
I hope it is as well. Apple needs good competition to keep innovating.
Absolutely.

From everything I'm reading, I think MS has a fantastic UI concept for a tablet but they're falling down because they're reluctant to accept that the tablet market is a third market that sits in between. They're looking for it to replace the laptop/ desktop market. Where for some people they're always going to need both.

Maybe one day the RT Pro concept will be the way to go, but the battery life and the lack of push, means we're not there yet. As a result they've crippled RT by trying to keep an artificial divide between consumer/ student and worker, where at present fr my self at least, I need two devices. I could probably get away with one if RT offered more powerful features in the applications. The CPU and graphics capabilities are far less relevant to my work, than battery life and form factor are.

Exciting times ahead though I think, and probably some frustrating time too while the market works out what it's trying to achieve and the tech catches up.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 01:40 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
Well hell. Not now. Where did the 12GB install size rumor come from then?
My friend did state and show that he only had 19GB free on his 32GB device. He didn't have much if anything really installed. I was kinda shocked.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by iTurnip View Post
Sorry but as a surface owner I disagree with your negtive points.

1. Storage is not an issue as you can use USB storage or insert a 64gb Micro SD card.

2. I see your point but am willing to sacrifice this for movies in the correct aspect ratio

3. I Live in the USA and use a VPN on the surface to access British content. I had no difficulty in using the VPN so I don't know why your friend is struggling.

4. I agree and don't like to be pigeon holed on any device whether it be Apple or microsoft.

5. With microsoft offering 80% of profit to App developers it's only a matter of time before developers take advantage of the huge windows 8 market.

Point #1 should still be an issue because you have the inconvenience of buying a third party device to fill the need. Plus you have to add to the overall cost of the device.

On point #3, he couldn't get it going but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he hasn't put much effort into getting VPN going.

On point #5, you purchased the device with HOPE that app support will come. The Windows Phone 7 consumers are still hoping too.

It is a cool device overall and I would probably buy that over an Android tablet. Maybe.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 01:56 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by pesos View Post
If you want a real review, go to www.anandtech.com

The RT is great. No apps? Hmm mine seemed to come with a few that seem rather useful... Little no-names like Word, Excel, Powerpoint... Between those, IE/Mail/Calendar/Contacts, and Lync RT I can do everything I used to do on my iPad and about 10x more.

Wish the resolution was higher (Pro will have 1920x1080) but elements still look very good. Type/touch covers are impressive. RDP/citrix work great.

With the unrestricted USB port this could easily be a full time computing device for a student and many other scenarios as well.
Apart from the fact the RT does not let you install your own apps - you rely on the App Store for apps to be released.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 03:42 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by aaronvan View Post
I hope it is as well. Apple needs good competition to keep innovating.
Apple needs good competition to start innovating again.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 07:35 AM   #130
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Except, most pro and business users prefer 16:10 for their tablet, which is why HP Elitebook business tablet still 16:10. Most of the reason going to 16:9 is because it cost less to make/use, and consumers like it better for watching video.
Huh? The iPad is the first tablet to see wide adoption into the corporate market, and it's 4:3.

Consumers by and large just buy whatever is cheapest and don't put too much thought into the fact that they are getting less screen with 16:9 panels.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 09:38 AM   #131
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Digital foundry review

Not the greatest review for the device to be honest, but one that is at least fair and unbiased (or at least seemingly so).

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df...face-rt-review


Quote:
Surface RT: the Digital Foundry verdict


To challenge Apple's supremacy in the tablet marketplace, Microsoft had to come up with something really special - either a product that comprehensively outperforms the current market leader, or else offer exclusive, must-have functionality. On the latter point, Surface should have been a slum-dunk - a brand new OS, the ability to access pretty much all of your USB hardware with zero hassle, plus of course Windows and Office installed by default. Exclusive features that could have been genuine game-changers. In combination with Tegra 3's gaming power, the overall package could have been a winner.

The sobering reality is that Surface is a disappointment on almost every level. Game performance is wildly off-pace compared to the competition, the Windows desktop has barely any actual functionality aside from accessing Office, and, in terms of Word at least, the product should never have shipped in this state. It's described as a pre-release version that will be updated for free once it is ready, but for such an important element of the package to feature such a grim user experience at launch is unforgivable.

So is the Surface RT a nuclear disaster of a product with no redeeming features whatsoever? Not quite - clearly, there is some potential here. The Metro UI works really nicely, offering up a classy, visually rich alternative to iOS and Android with the context-sensitive icons and the "swipe from the sides" access for additional functions just two little elements that work really well. But a 400 tablet cannot be recommended on the basis of a collection of neat features, a nice UI and a decent browser. We wanted Surface to be the product that would render our laptop obsolete, while offering competitive gaming performance to the iPad. On both counts, Surface fails badly: Windows is hobbled, Office doesn't entirely work properly in its current form, and it seems as if games are crying out for more horsepower.

Surface RT's many failings may make the upcoming Pro model with the Core i5 processor and full-fat Windows 8 an even more desirable proposition, but in the all-important 400 price range Apple has absolutely nothing to worry about from this lacklustre challenger.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 09:50 AM   #132
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Have one, its going back.

Sucks: flash doesn't work in most good sites. Defeats the point of a laptop replacement.

RT is just bad in many ways. Really substandard browsing experience and even default apps are a poor experience.

No apps. Kindle is unusable.

Auto brightness is unusable.

Sluggish performance in everything except System UI.

The Verge's own Surface review won't load on the device without it hanging halfway.

It's a compromise in every way that makes me rather use another laptop or tablet in any given scenario than use the Surface.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 10:51 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by j_maddison View Post
but they're falling down because they're reluctant to accept that the tablet market is a third market that sits in between. They're looking for it to replace the laptop/ desktop market. Where for some people they're always going to need both.
I think the opposite, it's this strategy that will give them some strong market share IMO. The tablet market should NOT be a third market, it is because Apple created it with a new watered down OS. Windows Pro devices will take away the need to have a third market. When you say people need both, what's "both"? A tablet and a PC right. I don't see why there is so much reluctance to accept a device that gives you BOTH of these, why some people are so dead set on having 2 devices.

The best analogy IMO is laptops. Did we see this same argument when laptops were invented? Did we assume we needed a watered down OS to run laptops? Did the evolution of laptops eventually lead us to an iOS like OS on laptops? No it didn't, laptops started with and evolved to have full OS on them. Granted laptops were very expensive and less consumer oriented and more business oriented when they came out, but they filtered very quickly to the average consumer. iOS IMO was a necessity when the hardware just didn't keep up with the software, or at lease I'm assuming that 3 years ago Apple could not have made a proper OSx tablet and still make a profit, but that's just pure assumption. Whatever hardware constraints forced us into this "third tablet market" now do not exist and we can have our cake and eat it too.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 10:54 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by charlieegan3 View Post
Apple needs good competition to start innovating again.
This...
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 11:11 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by spinedoc77 View Post
I think the opposite, it's this strategy that will give them some strong market share IMO. The tablet market should NOT be a third market, it is because Apple created it with a new watered down OS. Windows Pro devices will take away the need to have a third market. When you say people need both, what's "both"? A tablet and a PC right. I don't see why there is so much reluctance to accept a device that gives you BOTH of these, why some people are so dead set on having 2 devices.

The best analogy IMO is laptops. Did we see this same argument when laptops were invented? Did we assume we needed a watered down OS to run laptops? Did the evolution of laptops eventually lead us to an iOS like OS on laptops? No it didn't, laptops started with and evolved to have full OS on them. Granted laptops were very expensive and less consumer oriented and more business oriented when they came out, but they filtered very quickly to the average consumer. iOS IMO was a necessity when the hardware just didn't keep up with the software, or at lease I'm assuming that 3 years ago Apple could not have made a proper OSx tablet and still make a profit, but that's just pure assumption. Whatever hardware constraints forced us into this "third tablet market" now do not exist and we can have our cake and eat it too.
I know we disagree on this issue to some degree, so this is more for conversation's sake than anything.

Anyhow, I think that to some extent people do want one device, but they want no compromises in either hardware or software. This is the first year that the hardware is starting to get close to that reality; if my laptop screen can contain the entire computer and only dock to the keyboard as necessary, that's a new paradigm that people might be willing to accept.

The problem is, hardware is only 1/2 of the equation. As I've said here before, until the software is as simple and reliable as it is on iOS and Android, people will still want tablet 'appliances' that are always on, always ready.

The other thing is I'm not sure merging the form factor is really the way to go. I'm ok with a laptop and a tablet right now because a 10" laptop is too small for work, and a 14" laptop is too big for portability. I think tablets will eventually settle in at that 7-10" range for use on the go and around the house and people will still keep larger laptops and desktops to do work on. There is a huge difference between a 10.6" tablet and a 7" one, just like there is a huge difference between working on a 10.6" screen and a 14" one.

As an aside, what kind of standby life are you getting out of that Samsung? ie. when you put it to sleep (or whatever 'instant-on mode it has) overnight, how much battery do you lose. This is where Windows has been very poor in the past as storing the system state in RAM takes 1-2watts which means ~1-2 days of standby time max.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 11:41 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by zhenya View Post
I know we disagree on this issue to some degree, so this is more for conversation's sake than anything.

Anyhow, I think that to some extent people do want one device, but they want no compromises in either hardware or software. This is the first year that the hardware is starting to get close to that reality; if my laptop screen can contain the entire computer and only dock to the keyboard as necessary, that's a new paradigm that people might be willing to accept.

The problem is, hardware is only 1/2 of the equation. As I've said here before, until the software is as simple and reliable as it is on iOS and Android, people will still want tablet 'appliances' that are always on, always ready.

The other thing is I'm not sure merging the form factor is really the way to go. I'm ok with a laptop and a tablet right now because a 10" laptop is too small for work, and a 14" laptop is too big for portability. I think tablets will eventually settle in at that 7-10" range for use on the go and around the house and people will still keep larger laptops and desktops to do work on. There is a huge difference between a 10.6" tablet and a 7" one, just like there is a huge difference between working on a 10.6" screen and a 14" one.

As an aside, what kind of standby life are you getting out of that Samsung? ie. when you put it to sleep (or whatever 'instant-on mode it has) overnight, how much battery do you lose. This is where Windows has been very poor in the past as storing the system state in RAM takes 1-2watts which means ~1-2 days of standby time max.
You bring up some great points. I can't say that Microsoft has achieved all of these goals currently, and my fear is that they are wasting their first impression. This is not in relation to RT, I don't shy away from saying RT is a mistake exactly because there strategy should be to unify tablets and laptops. As for my Samsung, in all honesty I am getting mixed feelings about it and Windows Pro on an Atom CPU. It's incredibly amazing to have windows on a tablet, I can't even describe it, it makes you realize just how lacking and completely underpowered iOS is. But at the same time the Atom CPU isn't exactly inspiring a huge amount of confidence in my daily use.

You have good points about the fact that some will still need a laptop and a tablet due to the screen sizes, but IMO there is no reason BOTH cannot have a full OS, ie: I don't see the reason for iOS to even exist anymore. Just because Tablets become ubiquitous does not mean laptops will become extinct, just as when laptops became commonplace it didn't mean desktops disappeared.

As far as battery life my Samsung has completely amazed me. I can literally leave it turned on with 75% brightness, even if I walk away I don't bother to turn it off most of the time. I can easily use it all day, and I mean a solid 12 hours, not continuously but very often, and it will still have 40% at the end of the day. Yesterday I installed a ton of stuff on it, Photoshop elements, CorelDraw, sketchpad, and I played with it for a long time, just downloading and installing these programs took a while and these are CPU/battery intensive activites (btw pressure sensitivity and a stylus in photoshop is freakin awesome) and even after this at 10pm I still have 25% battery left. As for standby I'm not sure, but I thought I read somewhere that the Atom CPUs got 3 weeks of standby. On any account if I hit the power switch I don't find any battery use at all when I come back to it.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 11:56 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by spinedoc77 View Post
As for my Samsung, in all honesty I am getting mixed feelings about it and Windows Pro on an Atom CPU. It's incredibly amazing to have windows on a tablet, I can't even describe it, it makes you realize just how lacking and completely underpowered iOS is. But at the same time the Atom CPU isn't exactly inspiring a huge amount of confidence in my daily use.
Good to hear about the battery life.

Can you expand on the above statement? I think that reviews updated over time are of far more value than only hearing back on the first day or two of ownership.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 12:08 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinedoc77 View Post
I think the opposite, it's this strategy that will give them some strong market share IMO. The tablet market should NOT be a third market, it is because Apple created it with a new watered down OS. Windows Pro devices will take away the need to have a third market. When you say people need both, what's "both"? A tablet and a PC right. I don't see why there is so much reluctance to accept a device that gives you BOTH of these, why some people are so dead set on having 2 devices.

The best analogy IMO is laptops. Did we see this same argument when laptops were invented? Did we assume we needed a watered down OS to run laptops? Did the evolution of laptops eventually lead us to an iOS like OS on laptops? No it didn't, laptops started with and evolved to have full OS on them. Granted laptops were very expensive and less consumer oriented and more business oriented when they came out, but they filtered very quickly to the average consumer. iOS IMO was a necessity when the hardware just didn't keep up with the software, or at lease I'm assuming that 3 years ago Apple could not have made a proper OSx tablet and still make a profit, but that's just pure assumption. Whatever hardware constraints forced us into this "third tablet market" now do not exist and we can have our cake and eat it too.
I respect your view, and our views to some extent will be coloured (UK spelling) on by what we use the devices for our selves.

I see where your coming from, especially regarding Surface pro, because I share your view there. Where I differ is I think there will always need to be a third market, and the reason being ergonomics.

A phone will be perfect in some scenarios, but the screen will be too small in others. Likewise a tablet that is large enough and convenient in some instances, will be inadequate and too small in others. And a hybrid would have too small a screen, or be too bulky if the screen was big enough to replace a laptop/ desktop.

So for that reason, there will always need to be three devices/ form factors, even if the third is just a screen to plug into. But again that will be under the assumption that where you are travelling to will have a screen that you can plug into, it might not, which would necessitate a larger form factor such as a laptop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zhenya View Post
I know we disagree on this issue to some degree, so this is more for conversation's sake than anything.

Anyhow, I think that to some extent people do want one device, but they want no compromises in either hardware or software. This is the first year that the hardware is starting to get close to that reality; if my laptop screen can contain the entire computer and only dock to the keyboard as necessary, that's a new paradigm that people might be willing to accept.

The problem is, hardware is only 1/2 of the equation. As I've said here before, until the software is as simple and reliable as it is on iOS and Android, people will still want tablet 'appliances' that are always on, always ready.

The other thing is I'm not sure merging the form factor is really the way to go. I'm ok with a laptop and a tablet right now because a 10" laptop is too small for work, and a 14" laptop is too big for portability. I think tablets will eventually settle in at that 7-10" range for use on the go and around the house and people will still keep larger laptops and desktops to do work on. There is a huge difference between a 10.6" tablet and a 7" one, just like there is a huge difference between working on a 10.6" screen and a 14" one.
That pretty much sums up my thoughts almost exactly.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 12:41 PM   #139
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I respect your view, and our views to some extent will be coloured (UK spelling) on by what we use the devices for our selves.

I see where your coming from, especially regarding Surface pro, because I share your view there. Where I differ is I think there will always need to be a third market, and the reason being ergonomics.

A phone will be perfect in some scenarios, but the screen will be too small in others. Likewise a tablet that is large enough and convenient in some instances, will be inadequate and too small in others. And a hybrid would have too small a screen, or be too bulky if the screen was big enough to replace a laptop/ desktop.

So for that reason, there will always need to be three devices/ form factors, even if the third is just a screen to plug into. But again that will be under the assumption that where you are travelling to will have a screen that you can plug into, it might not, which would necessitate a larger form factor such as a laptop.




That pretty much sums up my thoughts almost exactly.
No argument from me there, just as there can be a need for a desktop to the laptop owner, so too the laptop owner may also need a tablet. Where I differ though is I don't believe iOS is a necessary part of that equation at all. So we need to differentiate between a third hardware device category, which I agree with, and a third OS category which I don't agree that we need anymore.

If Windows 8 Pro was perfect, which it's not, but if it was what reason would iOS even have to exist? If Apple put out an OSx tablet tomorrow, what reason would iOS have to exist? iOS valiantly served its purpose, but IMO it's time to let the past go, to let the Palm OS go, to let the Windows Mobile OS go, to let iOS go.

For the record I think Apple is much smarter than you or I. It's obvious they have been introducing iOS like functions into OSx, they have been thinking for a long time now the need to merge the 2 OS'. Especially with this push by Microsoft I think Apple will one day soon release an OSx tablet, but only after they have perfected OSx for tablets. Apple won't make the same mistake that MS made in releasing an OS that straddles the line too much, but fails to please both computer users and tablet users. Apple's genius is they know how to squeeze all the cash out of consumers and even they are smart enough to see a paradigm shift from having a watered down OS because the hardware wasn't there and having technology finally catch up so you can have a full OS. iOS will stay with the iphone just like RT will stay with WP8, there may be a very low priced iOS ipad sold as an "ipod" or a media consumption device, but Apple IMO is most definitely, somewhere along the line thinking about an OSx tablet. The question is how will they keep from cannibalizing their laptop sales, maybe a higher priced "laptop" that is really an OSx tablet with a docking station as the new luxury item, although there is very little room to maneuver with Microsoft pricing. Ahh competition is good.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 12:55 PM   #140
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My friend did state and show that he only had 19GB free on his 32GB device. He didn't have much if anything really installed. I was kinda shocked.

----------




Point #1 should still be an issue because you have the inconvenience of buying a third party device to fill the need. Plus you have to add to the overall cost of the device.

On point #3, he couldn't get it going but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he hasn't put much effort into getting VPN going.

On point #5, you purchased the device with HOPE that app support will come. The Windows Phone 7 consumers are still hoping too.

It is a cool device overall and I would probably buy that over an Android tablet. Maybe.
Point #1 I could have chosen a 64gb surface but the cost of buying an additional 64gb SD card is half the cost of the 32gb upgrade. Thus the cost is actually less for a device with more memory. Plus having an infinite ability to upgrade storage far out weighs the inconvience of spending 1 minute on the internet to buy a memory card .

Point # 5 Every person who bought the first generation ipad and iphone took the same leap of faith and with microsoft offering 80% of profit for developers to make apps for the worlds largest computer market, apps are sure to follow. I am already seeing new apps being added every day.

Everybody who has used my surface has loved it, even the most self confessed apple fan boys.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 12:56 PM   #141
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Good to hear about the battery life.

Can you expand on the above statement? I think that reviews updated over time are of far more value than only hearing back on the first day or two of ownership.
I'm 1000% sold on having Windows on a tablet, the experience is just incredible. Metro as a UI is ok, too many compromises and most of the time I will seek out a desktop program instead of its Metro equivalent. Internet explorer is a prime example, it's neutered in some weird design aspects in Metro, but in desktop mode it's the same old internet explorer, reliable and overall great.

Honestly I have little issue running in desktop, I set DPI to 125% and everything scales well. Things like running a full version of photoshop, office, etc etc just cannot be beat. If I want a "dumb" media consumption device I can have that, video, pictures, music, social media, etc etc I don't see an iota of difference between iOS and Windows 8.

The absolute only caveat I have is the Atom CPU. Most times it is great, but sometimes it does lag, or the entire device just sticks for a second or 2, but I can usually pinpoint it to something CPU intensive. This is a short term issue IMO as we are getting the Haswell quad core CPU's next year, and honestly the Atom performance is very nice the vast majority of the time, I'm just a power user and get concerned if I start to load up power programs, although as I mentioned PS elements ran perfectly and was a dream to use with a pressure sensitive stylus.

My other choice is the ivy bridge full CPU's. I'll have to wait and see how they perform, battery life, etc. This is what a lot of people are waiting for, in particular the Surface Pro. I'm seeing what Samsung, acer and asus are putting out as Pro solutions today and I'm not sure if I'm impressed, but I cannot judge until it's in my hands. If the battery life and performance is there with the ivy bridge CPUs then I'll be sold, well I'm already sold and the Atom is acceptable, just not perfect. But the alternative of living in a dark dreary world of "apps" is enough of a sorry alternative where I'll accept some hardware foibles.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 12:58 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Jinzen View Post
Have one, its going back.

Sucks: flash doesn't work in most good sites. Defeats the point of a laptop replacement.

RT is just bad in many ways. Really substandard browsing experience and even default apps are a poor experience.

No apps. Kindle is unusable.

Auto brightness is unusable.

Sluggish performance in everything except System UI.

The Verge's own Surface review won't load on the device without it hanging halfway.

It's a compromise in every way that makes me rather use another laptop or tablet in any given scenario than use the Surface.
That's certainly not the experience I have had. Two people I work with are buying one as a result of loving mine.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 01:43 PM   #143
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That's certainly not the experience I have had. Two people I work with are buying one as a result of loving mine.
Of course it's your experience. Lack of apps, hanging websites, restricted flash etc. These are measurable and objective.

It's not like you used it for anything except IE or Word anyway. Nothing else is worth using on it.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 02:08 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinedoc77 View Post
No argument from me there, just as there can be a need for a desktop to the laptop owner, so too the laptop owner may also need a tablet. Where I differ though is I don't believe iOS is a necessary part of that equation at all. So we need to differentiate between a third hardware device category, which I agree with, and a third OS category which I don't agree that we need anymore.

If Windows 8 Pro was perfect, which it's not, but if it was what reason would iOS even have to exist? If Apple put out an OSx tablet tomorrow, what reason would iOS have to exist? iOS valiantly served its purpose, but IMO it's time to let the past go, to let the Palm OS go, to let the Windows Mobile OS go, to let iOS go.

For the record I think Apple is much smarter than you or I. It's obvious they have been introducing iOS like functions into OSx, they have been thinking for a long time now the need to merge the 2 OS'. Especially with this push by Microsoft I think Apple will one day soon release an OSx tablet, but only after they have perfected OSx for tablets. Apple won't make the same mistake that MS made in releasing an OS that straddles the line too much, but fails to please both computer users and tablet users. Apple's genius is they know how to squeeze all the cash out of consumers and even they are smart enough to see a paradigm shift from having a watered down OS because the hardware wasn't there and having technology finally catch up so you can have a full OS. iOS will stay with the iphone just like RT will stay with WP8, there may be a very low priced iOS ipad sold as an "ipod" or a media consumption device, but Apple IMO is most definitely, somewhere along the line thinking about an OSx tablet. The question is how will they keep from cannibalizing their laptop sales, maybe a higher priced "laptop" that is really an OSx tablet with a docking station as the new luxury item, although there is very little room to maneuver with Microsoft pricing. Ahh competition is good.
I see where your coming from on the OS thing. I agree with what your saying about Windows 8, I think it's the birth of an OS that pretty much transcends all form factors. The front end is the same, you just pick what type of device you want to use it on. With more cloud integration, facilitated by faster and always on connectivity, you could well end up with a scenario (excluding large data files), where you simply stop working on one device and pick up another. Like leaving the office and going on a site visit, and then returning to the office and transferring back to your desktop. Everything working seamlessly.

In that scenario, yes iOS would need to die a sudden death or Apple would be going down the pan fast. iOS profited because it was simple, anyone could use it and be up and running within minutes. I think for a lot of people it's far too simple now, and we'll all have our little pet hates about it. Multi tasking, or the lack of being an absolute ball ache for me. Websites not having to reload being another, but that's obviously not a UI issue.

I think we're heaving back to the times where the hardware needs to catch up to meet the needs of the software, I think that time had stagnated for a little while. This time around it's the other kind of power that's the issue.

What Samsung device were you talking about a few posts back? Samsung Ativ?? The battery life discussion pricked my interest.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 03:06 PM   #145
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Huh? The iPad is the first tablet to see wide adoption into the corporate market, and it's 4:3.

Consumers by and large just buy whatever is cheapest and don't put too much thought into the fact that they are getting less screen with 16:9 panels.
Yeah except no. It was those HP, and Lenovo tablets with the OS that should never be used that gained some fair adoption. Back then they were 4:3, until they went to 16:10, which is now what the business, and enterprise market still prefer after years of acceptance. Hence why the the HP Elitebook tablet is still 16:10 and most other business tablets too were 16:10 for a long while, until they were sort of forced by MS to make it 16:9 to support their new garbage OS, and it's snap feature.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 03:47 PM   #146
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Of course it's your experience. Lack of apps, hanging websites, restricted flash etc. These are measurable and objective.

It's not like you used it for anything except IE or Word anyway. Nothing else is worth using on it.
Like you know what I use my surface for. I've tried most of it's functions. I'm sure it must be operator error on your part. I don't actually believe you bought one and are just here to blindly hate it as it's not an apple product.

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Old Oct 31, 2012, 04:33 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by spinedoc77 View Post
For the record I think Apple is much smarter than you or I. It's obvious they have been introducing iOS like functions into OSx, they have been thinking for a long time now the need to merge the 2 OS'. Especially with this push by Microsoft I think Apple will one day soon release an OSx tablet, but only after they have perfected OSx for tablets. Apple won't make the same mistake that MS made in releasing an OS that straddles the line too much, but fails to please both computer users and tablet users. Apple's genius is they know how to squeeze all the cash out of consumers and even they are smart enough to see a paradigm shift from having a watered down OS because the hardware wasn't there and having technology finally catch up so you can have a full OS. iOS will stay with the iphone just like RT will stay with WP8, there may be a very low priced iOS ipad sold as an "ipod" or a media consumption device, but Apple IMO is most definitely, somewhere along the line thinking about an OSx tablet. The question is how will they keep from cannibalizing their laptop sales, maybe a higher priced "laptop" that is really an OSx tablet with a docking station as the new luxury item, although there is very little room to maneuver with Microsoft pricing. Ahh competition is good.
I do think Apple is going to merge iOS and OS X somewhere down the line, and they'll probably come out with something like a MacBook Air with a detachable keyboard where the screen is a tablet when the keyboard is not attached. And I don't think they'll worry about it cannibalizing their laptop sales -- the laptop will just die a natural death once the convertible tablet/laptop form matures.

But I think Apple was absolutely right in creating a touch-centric OS for the tablet first, then worrying about merging it back with the desktop OS later. Microsoft kept trying to develop and sell tablet computers for nearly two decades, and it never got widely adopted because they kept trying to clam a full desktop OS into a tablet. This was bad for two reasons -- one, hardware-wise, it required too much power, and made the tablets heavy, clumsy, and expensive. Two, software-wise, touch interaction was always an afterthought. Microsoft designed the software with the desktop in mind, and added touch features to a UI paradigm that was fundamentally designed for desktops.

Now, the hardware is finally at the point where a full desktop OS can be run on systems that are light and portable enough to be usable as tablets. But software-wise, Microsoft would never have created a tablet-centric UI like the Metro UI for Win8 without Apple kicking them in the backside with iOS.

So while the future should be a merging back of desktop and tablet OS, I think that the detour through a tablet-specific OS was a necessary intermediary step. Even now, I feel I would personally prefer the iPad + laptop combination to any of the Win 8 hybrid laptop/tablet solutions avaiable today. If the perfect convertible tablet/laptop was here, of course I would want that. But all the Win8 hybrids I've seen seem awkward in one way or other -- too big and heavy to be a comfortable tablet, or too small to be a usable laptop. And knowing Apple's track record, my money is on Apple to come out with the perfect hybrid first. Of course, if someone else should get there first, I wouldn't complain.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 04:41 PM   #148
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I do think Apple is going to merge iOS and OS X somewhere down the line, and they'll probably come out with something like a MacBook Air with a detachable keyboard where the screen is a tablet when the keyboard is not attached. And I don't think they'll worry about it cannibalizing their laptop sales -- the laptop will just die a natural death once the convertible tablet/laptop form matures.

But I think Apple was absolutely right in creating a touch-centric OS for the tablet first, then worrying about merging it back with the desktop OS later. Microsoft kept trying to develop and sell tablet computers for nearly two decades, and it never got widely adopted because they kept trying to clam a full desktop OS into a tablet. This was bad for two reasons -- one, hardware-wise, it required too much power, and made the tablets heavy, clumsy, and expensive. Two, software-wise, touch interaction was always an afterthought. Microsoft designed the software with the desktop in mind, and added touch features to a UI paradigm that was fundamentally designed for desktops.

Now, the hardware is finally at the point where a full desktop OS can be run on systems that are light and portable enough to be usable as tablets. But software-wise, Microsoft would never have created a tablet-centric UI like the Metro UI for Win8 without Apple kicking them in the backside with iOS.

So while the future should be a merging back of desktop and tablet OS, I think that the detour through a tablet-specific OS was a necessary intermediary step. Even now, I feel I would personally prefer the iPad + laptop combination to any of the Win 8 hybrid laptop/tablet solutions avaiable today. If the perfect convertible tablet/laptop was here, of course I would want that. But all the Win8 hybrids I've seen seem awkward in one way or other -- too big and heavy to be a comfortable tablet, or too small to be a usable laptop. And knowing Apple's track record, my money is on Apple to come out with the perfect hybrid first. Of course, if someone else should get there first, I wouldn't complain.
Hence my other thread "Apple should respect the Surface Pro"

It has the MBA guts in a 2 lb, thin tablet package and offers the touch/type covers. I'll probably be selling my retina MBP and going with a Surface Pro/iMac combo from there on out...
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 04:51 PM   #149
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I'll probably be selling my retina MBP and going with a Surface Pro/iMac combo from there on out...
If you do, hit me up. Even with the Surface Pro coming out, I still wouldn't minding having an rMBP.
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Old Oct 31, 2012, 04:53 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by j_maddison View Post
I see where your coming from on the OS thing. I agree with what your saying about Windows 8, I think it's the birth of an OS that pretty much transcends all form factors. The front end is the same, you just pick what type of device you want to use it on. With more cloud integration, facilitated by faster and always on connectivity, you could well end up with a scenario (excluding large data files), where you simply stop working on one device and pick up another. Like leaving the office and going on a site visit, and then returning to the office and transferring back to your desktop. Everything working seamlessly.

In that scenario, yes iOS would need to die a sudden death or Apple would be going down the pan fast. iOS profited because it was simple, anyone could use it and be up and running within minutes. I think for a lot of people it's far too simple now, and we'll all have our little pet hates about it. Multi tasking, or the lack of being an absolute ball ache for me. Websites not having to reload being another, but that's obviously not a UI issue.

I think we're heaving back to the times where the hardware needs to catch up to meet the needs of the software, I think that time had stagnated for a little while. This time around it's the other kind of power that's the issue.

What Samsung device were you talking about a few posts back? Samsung Ativ?? The battery life discussion pricked my interest.
Yes I have the Samsung ativ smart PC, it's got full windows on it.

For the record I just left the mall and was able to check out the surface RT in person. Very nice, physical form factor is ok but it feels thick (even though it isn't) kind of like how the iphone 4\4s feel thick because of the squared off design. The keyboard was great, the flat one worked very well but the type cover was SICK. I still wouldn't touch it as all the criticism I throw at iOS as being unnecessary I also believes applies to RT.

----------

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Originally Posted by Jinzen View Post
Of course it's your experience. Lack of apps, hanging websites, restricted flash etc. These are measurable and objective.

It's not like you used it for anything except IE or Word anyway. Nothing else is worth using on it.
Are you really using restricted flash and hanging web sites as your argument in favor of the iPad?!?! That's funny.
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