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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:11 AM   #51
SiPat
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I'm sure that a lot of Apple employees, both those pro and anti Forstall visit MacRumors, and all this speculation will do nothing for harmony within Apple.

The anti-Forstall group are said to be quietly jubilant and having celebratory drinks -- I wonder how the pro-Forstall group must be feeling, especially about their own futures at Apple.
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:12 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by koolmagicguy View Post
Hey MacRumors,

Have you considered making an Apple drama forum?

Thanks.
There used to be a Web site many years ago called "As the Apple Turns", obviously in reference to the soap opera "As the World Turns". It was very funny, and I miss it. I would love to see someone resurrect it!
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:14 AM   #53
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Like others, I didn' realise that Forstall was so disliked, but aggressive management style is always going to put peoople on edge, and is often a sign of someone who's deeply insecure. Here's to a more cohesive, less devisive, executive leadership at Apple!
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:16 AM   #54
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Even skeumorphism can be a little more tasteful... it's now become a bad word because we've seen OSX and iPad's Calendar.
I honestly haven't had a problem with it as long as it was only driving the look and not the core operation of an app.

So what if my calendar looks like stitched leather with a torn page at the top. I think that's cute.

I get that people want their phone UI's to be unified instead of looking like a cluttered desk filled with wood and leather trinkets. I assume this must be the primary (only?) major argument against the current implementation.

Where I would have problems is if I was forced to operate the app as though I was operating the device it was modelled on, instead of more traditional interfaces. For example, if I had to (say) animate dragging a telephone handset up/down from its cradle, or twirl a telephone dial, instead of pressing buttons.
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:16 AM   #55
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sorry, should have said "after SJ had gone"...

In the past he's done a lot of Apple as you point out... but his management style is negative, doesn't seem to fit in the post SJ era.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgrove View Post
Forstall has done a lot for Apple. Remember he's been working for Apple for a long time. Aqua wouldn't have existed in the shape it was released in if it wasn't for him. iOS would have looked nothing like it does today if it wasn't for him. iOS has to a large extent been responsible for the massive success the iPhone has seen.

He hasn't done as much lately though. I do think Apple's timing here seems about right. He seems to have been very skilled in coming up with simple, yet attractive and usable interfaces. But I think he is best suited when it comes to spearheading new projects rather than maintaining them.

I think Apple may have been thinking that they do not need a "Forstall" in the foreseeable future, because Apple now works in the desktop, laptop, tablet, mobile, mp3 player, and TV spaces. They are established in the areas they want to be now. There is still much to do, but these efforts do not involve spearheading entirely new devices, new operating systems. Forstall gave Apple much of their brand identity in the software space, but they have it now. They've seen now what he could give them. Forstall hasn't had much more to give, as seen by the last two years of iOS "development"... It's been more about apps lately than building new platforms, which I think is what Forstall excelled at.

It's now more about maturing the operating systems on their devices, coming up with innovative new features, and staying at the forefront. Given that they may then start to suffer more from the downsides from his assertive team leadership style than the upsides from his innovative ideas on taking the "Apple experience" to new fields, they are better off with restructuring.

This is at least what I'm thinking here.
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:17 AM   #56
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I really am looking forward to this new structure, specifically Ive's touch on software and seeing something more robust from Maps. Yes, the shredder in Passbook is a bit over done and certainly doesn't seem to warrant being demo'ed as a main feature of iOS, however, Scott, who undoubtedly contributed enormously to Apple, was fired over something much much larger. Wishing him and Apple the very best.
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:18 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by nfl46 View Post
It's clear now that Scott was only kept because Steve liked him.
Liked but also likely used him. Where Forstall was 'bad cop' and Steve could play 'good cop' even though coming from the pretty much the same position.

Quote:
Thank Goodness Steve highly recommended Tim and not Scott.
Not sure what Jobs told Forstall (e.g., ' you are just this far from the big chair' or not ), but pretty sure he was no looking to install a mini-steve as CEO. If Forstall really want to be mini-steve then he needed to get fired anyway. He can go walk the wilderness for 10 years , get some perspective, and perhaps come back. Not likely the last. but probably does desperately needs the perspective.
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:23 AM   #58
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Seems that Forstall was trying to be Steve, but there was only one Steve and the other employees weren't going to put up with it.

I had dealings with the guy way back in the NeXT days. Somewhat arrogant back then.
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:25 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by iEnvy View Post
Its kind of sad to see people egg this on. Forstall was with the company for a very long time.

It would be interesting to see the actual facts of why Apple employees don't like him. I guess rumors will suffice.
I remember at WWDC a few years ago I asked him a technical/ OS related question and more than anything I remember that his answer was pretty snide and turned me off.... oh well...
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:27 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Chaszmyr View Post
Wow, who knew Forstall was so disliked? I'm actually looking forward to seeing what happens with Apple's products over the next 2-3 years, now that there seems to be less divisiveness in the company.
Well, don't forget that the timing of all these stories coming out may not be completely coincidental either...

The bus was coming down the road, and they needed Forstall to be under it.
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:30 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by MacFather View Post
Steve would have never fired Scott.

Image
Who knows, but he's not the CEO of Apple anymore.
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:33 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Gemütlichkeit View Post
I hope all this drama doesn't effect their products
It hugely affected the software side of their products; that's why this is good news.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiPat View Post
The anti-Forstall group are said to be quietly jubilant and having celebratory drinks -- I wonder how the pro-Forstall group must be feeling, especially about their own futures at Apple.
The pro-Forstall group? I don't understand.
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:34 AM   #63
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I wonder how many people under him were super loyal and might decide to leave. Or tell Ive and Federighi to *^#! off. I'm most curious about Greg Christie, Imran Chaudhri, Bas Ording, Marcel Van Os and Freddy Anzures as they're the ones listed with him most often on patents. Anyone here know much about these guys?
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:35 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by SiPat View Post
-- I wonder how the pro-Forstall group must be feeling, especially about their own futures at Apple.
If Forstall had cultivated good, strong management immediately below him that it is be a non issue for most of them. Rising up for those just immediately below just got harder because there are OS X cohorts now that are likely just as good to compete with.

IF Forstall had surrounded himself with flunkies then that's a different story.

For those in iOS that thought they were the divinely chosen group and that the rest of the company was "lower class". Yeah they may have some problems adjusting to reality.

This really isn't "new". The OS X and iOS reported into one exec before. Most likely a large portion of the teams will run independently except for what was previously shared anyway.
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:36 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Gemütlichkeit View Post
I hope all this drama doesn't effect their products
I actually hope that it does. iOS wasn't advancing at the rate that it should have been. There was too much focus on the "candy coating" that Scott (and Steve for that matter) liked so much. A tiny bit of skeuomorohic goes a long way.

It seems to me that Scott was putting more emphasis on the window dressing, than he was the functionality, stability and overall advancement of iOS, as a platform.

A great example is the Podcast app. It's still a disaster – practically unusable. The reel to reel tape deck looked like beautiful artwork, but who cares? The app was busted and had a lousy feature set and lousy user interface!

Scott made a lot of good contributions to Apple and I still prefer iOS, but Google has been advancing Android at a much faster clip. Apple cannot afford sit back.

The pressure is on Jony Ive now. He has the control to fix this. Here's hoping he does just that.

Last edited by Bilbo63; Nov 1, 2012 at 10:37 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:37 AM   #66
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I agree that Scott did a lot for Apple, but he is really acting as a mini-Steve. Besides, all of the iOS achievements made him quite arrogant and proud in the company.

That said, I really can't wait to see what the other executives can pull off, since the company is no longer that "fragmented".

I hate to speak about Android here, but it is quite apparent that Android OS is growing at a much faster rate in terms of updates and improvements compared to iOS. Jony and Co need to do pretty decent actions to make iOS another revolution.
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:38 AM   #67
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Scott must be floored. He donated his pancreas to Steve, and this is the thanks he gets? (Feel free to spread this rumour)
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:38 AM   #68
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Steve would have never fired Scott.

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Stop deluding yourself. Jobs fired Papermaster over "antennagate" and he would have fired Forstall over Maps. If Jobs really loved Forstall so much, why didn't he groom Forstall - not Cook - to be CEO of the company? It would appear that even Steve Jobs knew of Forstall's limitations.
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:42 AM   #69
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Departure of Mr. Forstall would be a welcome change.
Every few years you need a big change to come, they say. Even presidents' term is 4 years and current look and feel of iOS since 2007 has been longer.
So lets' see a new design, feel and look. I think that Ive might create something very special since he can how harmonize both hardware and software looks and thats very important. He doesn't have to agree with Forstall on design anymore. And that will provide a much more coherent vision for CEO to execute. There is an incredible task: how you improve a most popular smartphone on Earth? I am very much looking toward iPhone 7 (or next iPhone) and iOS7 combination. It might be a killer.
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:45 AM   #70
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I emailed Tim Cook a few months ago asking him to please Please PLEASE get rid of the boring app grid we've had to live with since 2007. It looks like he got my message!
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:46 AM   #71
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Even Steve had to be fired once to get his ego in check. Maybe Scott will come back a better exec after some time in the wilderness.
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:46 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by bluespark View Post
I
The pro-Forstall group? I don't understand.
There had to be some folks who got along with him fairly well enough to get iOS out the door on a timely basis.

It appears that Forstall was building an empire inside of Apple as much from taking away and diverting resources, projects , etc to his empire as much as going what he had. So he created far more enemies at the borders of his empire than inside. Inside, he was probably more of a benevolent dictator.

For example the designer who thought iCalendar was a great UI design might not be happy because Forstall took point on all the negative blow-back. Now they probably have a major redesign project on the table.
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:48 AM   #73
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Mansfield is a genius and Forstall is a douchebag.
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:49 AM   #74
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Why is everyone forgetting about Craig Federighi? He took over iOS from Forstall. Ive is now responsible for UI/UX but that's across the whole company, not just iOS. To be honest I'm hoping the first thing on Ive's list is to do something with TV. Talk about a UI that needs work.
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Old Nov 1, 2012, 10:52 AM   #75
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I emailed Tim Cook a few months ago asking him to please Please PLEASE get rid of the boring app grid we've had to live with since 2007. It looks like he got my message!
Maybe if we all e-mail the same thing Apple will get the message. I don't think anyone would mind a slight reboot of iOS.
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