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Old Nov 5, 2012, 09:11 PM   #201
zephyrnoid
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No single device can be all things to all people. None
Each user forms their requirements list
Manufacturers struggle to match the projected user demographics for a particular device to the MOST likely set of features that strike a reasonable compromise at a particular price-point.
Apple has a unique history of striking this balance far more effectively than any of it's competitors to date.
With respect to resolution:
Assuming your eyes are perfectly corrected vision-wise for the assumed reading distance on a particularly sized screen, this rule follows:
For every 1/2ing of distance the resolution (pixel density) ought to double to have the same readability. So indeed, the ipad mini falls short in comparison to it's ideal 'subway train' reading distance (13" from my eyeglasses).
Hence my 'pass' till the Ipad Mirco is announced in April.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by lianlua View Post
I wouldn't get hung up on the "next revision". The retina display will come in a future version, but there's no telling whether that's one or three generations away, or 8 months or two more years.

They'd have absolutely nothing to lose by releasing a premium version of the mini with a retina display right now...if such a thing existed at a non-insane price. Until they're able to put one out at less than $499 that isn't monstrously thick and heavy, we're not going to see it.
And therein lies the rub:
1) Your post suggest we live in a vacuum. Sadly Apple just TODAY lost a patent case against Google. Apple does not have the luxury of a 12 month refresh cycle on anything between an iphone and an iPad ( and look, Google is creeping up with its Chrome Book)
2) Apple error was mostly price-point vs display resolution ( we'll see what the sales numbers look like after the holidays)
3) Much to my consternation, Apple has managed to sell out of everything, even if it's overpriced because that logo is worth a 25% premium over anyone else's logo in the same market space ( or as I like to quip...wanna by an Apple sticker for a Dollar?)
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 09:38 PM   #202
lianlua
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zephyrnoid View Post
And therein lies the rub:
1) Your post suggest we live in a vacuum. Sadly Apple just TODAY lost a patent case against Google. Apple does not have the luxury of a 12 month refresh cycle on anything between an iphone and an iPad ( and look, Google is creeping up with its Chrome Book)
That's more or less the point. They may need to release an updated iPad mini before there's a suitable retina-class display to put in it, just as they did with the iPad 2. That's why it's not a great plan to hang your hat on "iPad mini 2 will have a 326ppi retina display". It might not. It might be longer than that. If it's too long, it might mean that they have to go with something in the 280ppi range and create a new size category if more 7" tablets go to ~240ppi.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 02:39 PM   #203
Spungoflex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhenya View Post
I've read your post.

Answer this simple question, based on your claims in post #193;

How many MORE pixels are there on the 7" 1920x1080 screen than on the 42" one?

It's clear you don't even understand the basics of how screens are described, let alone how they are designed.

You can't argue semantics if you don't know the vocabulary.
I obviously know far more than you do. You are wrong. Plain and simple.

As for your question, you might want to actually read what you quoted. Read it very slowly and very carefully. Here... I'll even type it out for you again and bold the important part. Keep your silly question in mind as you actually read what I wrote. See how your question makes absolutely no sense? That's why reading before you reply is so important.

Last edited by stridemat; Nov 13, 2012 at 12:57 PM. Reason: cleanup
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 02:45 PM   #204
yorkslad
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Lightbulb Brilliant idea!!!

All the people whinging over the ipad mini shoud just go buy a nexus 7, fire or other alternative and free up stock for those people who actually want one and won't be moaning all the time.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 02:50 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkslad View Post
All the people whinging over the ipad mini shoud just go buy a nexus 7, fire or other alternative and free up stock for those people who actually want one and won't be moaning all the time.
I took your excellent advice months ago.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 02:53 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by yorkslad View Post
All the people whinging over the ipad mini shoud just go buy a nexus 7, fire or other alternative and free up stock for those people who actually want one and won't be moaning all the time.
Or don't buy either! Choices!
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 02:54 PM   #207
Spungoflex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lianlua View Post
Color me surprised that you're back. Tell me, how does the size of a screen cause pixels to magically shrink?
It's very obvious that you are trolling, or you simply don't understand what you are talking about. You know full well that he never said anything about the size of the screen causing pixels to shrink. Take that nonsense back to 4chan. What you are typing makes no sense at all, outside of simple trolling.


Him: You need 3 ingredients to make lemonade. 1) Water. 2) Lemons. 3) Sugar.

You: Hey, you can't make lemonade without lemons!!! Haha!!! I'm right and you're wrong. You never said you needed lemons!!!
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 04:55 PM   #208
yorkslad
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Originally Posted by jsw View Post
I took your excellent advice months ago.
Firstly well done, secondly ask yourself why you keep coming back to this forum?? You would miss us really
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 07:17 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by yorkslad View Post
Firstly well done, secondly ask yourself why you keep coming back to this forum?? You would miss us really
Dude, I've got over 20K posts here. I'm an ex-mod. I love Apple, and I love the forums. I just happen to prefer the Nexus 7 and Kindle Fire HD, and both of those preferences have a lot to do with the cost. I don't care if Apple is making more money off the iPad; all I care is that I can get 16GB versions of the other two for $130 less, meaning both would cost only $70 more. I love the freedom of Android; I love the speakers and screen of the Fire HD. I also have about a dozen Macs and a similar number of iDevices around the house. I simply, in this case, don't think the Mini in this incarnation is worth a minimum of $329.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 07:58 PM   #210
zephyrnoid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lianlua View Post
That's more or less the point. They may need to release an updated iPad mini before there's a suitable retina-class display to put in it, just as they did with the iPad 2. That's why it's not a great plan to hang your hat on "iPad mini 2 will have a 326ppi retina display". It might not. It might be longer than that. If it's too long, it might mean that they have to go with something in the 280ppi range and create a new size category if more 7" tablets go to ~240ppi.
Actually. I'll bet my fortune the next Apple mini will be the width of a Nexus7 irrespective of ti's screen's resolution. This first run of Mini's has NO low budget model. If Apple that thinness and larger than the Joneses screen real estate were the only user requirement; they were wrong.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 08:32 PM   #211
zhenya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zephyrnoid View Post
Actually. I'll bet my fortune the next Apple mini will be the width of a Nexus7 irrespective of ti's screen's resolution. This first run of Mini's has NO low budget model. If Apple that thinness and larger than the Joneses screen real estate were the only user requirement; they were wrong.
I'd take that bet. 4:3 is the premium option. Apple doesn't participate in the bottom of the market. They aren't looking to sell the most volume; like every other market they're in they want to make the most money.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 08:33 PM   #212
fertilized-egg
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Originally Posted by zephyrnoid View Post
Actually. I'll bet my fortune the next Apple mini will be the width of a Nexus7 irrespective of ti's screen's resolution. This first run of Mini's has NO low budget model. If Apple that thinness and larger than the Joneses screen real estate were the only user requirement; they were wrong.
I doubt the size will change since anything smaller will mess up the iPad apps running on it.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 09:11 PM   #213
zhenya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkuo View Post
Agreed, he's either a troll or a moron. The problem is even when you win an argument with an idiot, you still lose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spungoflex View Post
You are completely wrong. Screen size and resolution are the ONLY two factors that need to be taken into consideration when calculating PPI. That is a stone cold fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lianlua View Post
Neither resolution nor screen size determines ppi. That you can calculate one value by knowing the other two does not establish causality.

The metric of pixels per inch is based on the size of the pixels and nothing else. There is zero causal relationship between screen size and pixel density.

For example, the size of a pixel used on the Kindle Fire HD is 0.00464". Whether you made a display of five inches, 15 inches, or 50 inches with those pixels, it would always be 215.5ppi. Whether you made a display of 1024x768, 1280x800, or 2560x1600 with those pixels, it would always be 215.5ppi. It doesn't matter to the pixels how many you pack together (size) or what configuration (resolution) you put them in.

A display's ppi is fixed in its physical existence. Neither changing the size nor changing the resolution of a display will in and of itself change the size of the pixels that it contains.

Your statement:

Is not accurate. It should say: the mini has a higher ppi than the iPad 2 even though both devices have the exact same resolution. Why? Pixel size.

The smaller screen doesn't make ppi increase, the smaller pixels do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lianlua View Post
Color me surprised that you're back. Tell me, how does the size of a screen cause pixels to magically shrink?

No really, because you've just solved the entire industry's problems. If only we make the screens smaller, the pixels will play along and make themselves smaller, too! Just like that!

The size of pixels is one of the only two things you can control. "ppi" is a measure of dot pitch is a measure of pixel size. That's all.

You can calculate it empirically if you are holding a finished display in your hand and know its exact size and its native resolution. You can also calculate it with a microscope. You can also calculate it electrically if you know a few parameters about the LCD controller. There are plenty of ways to calculate the figure, but there's only one cause: the size of an individual pixel.

It's really not hard to understand if you stop and use your brain for just one moment.
You still think PPI is determined by screen size. Your edit makes you slightly less wrong in that particular sentence, but it completely clouds the meaning.

The following statement is all you need to know and it's clear you still don't understand it.

Quote:
The metric of pixels per inch is based on the size of the pixels and nothing else. There is zero causal relationship between screen size and pixel density.
You are making statements at an elementary-school level and lianlua is explaining it to you from the understanding of a trained engineer. You're the only one that can't see this.

Last edited by stridemat; Nov 13, 2012 at 12:56 PM. Reason: Cleanup
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 11:09 AM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhenya View Post
I'd take that bet. 4:3 is the premium option. Apple doesn't participate in the bottom of the market. They aren't looking to sell the most volume; like every other market they're in they want to make the most money.
Have a look at the results of this survey of APPLE product users, when asked which their preference was for their next tablet. Nexus7 refers to the upcoming variants not the first gen.

I don't participate in the bottom market either. I write about the best match between technology and user needs. If all you need is an Apple logo, so be it. As a long time Apple user, I do not need the Apple Logo, only the Apple reliability and functionality IF it spec's out to MY requirements. An ipad that will not fit in my coat is a loser.
That's why I'm betting my professional reputation on the next iPad Mini, the iPad Micro,being narrower and probably, sporting a Retina display this time.

ASIDE: I find it so funny that all these Google tablet banner ads keep popping up around the UI here.

----------

I see my argument is borne by others here as well..

Here's a fair warning to Apple. Look at what's happened to Red Digital. They've had to take 60% off the sticker price of their high class cameras to compete with the Asian Invasion.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 11:29 AM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zephyrnoid View Post
Have a look at the results of this survey of APPLE product users, when asked which their preference was for their next tablet. Nexus7 refers to the upcoming variants not the first gen.
Image
You posted an image of a survey with no identifying information about where it came from? How is that supposed to be useful or credible? I'm not accusing you of making it up or anything, but some context would be helpful...
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 12:03 PM   #216
zhenya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zephyrnoid View Post
Have a look at the results of this survey of APPLE product users, when asked which their preference was for their next tablet. Nexus7 refers to the upcoming variants not the first gen.
Image
I don't participate in the bottom market either. I write about the best match between technology and user needs. If all you need is an Apple logo, so be it. As a long time Apple user, I do not need the Apple Logo, only the Apple reliability and functionality IF it spec's out to MY requirements. An ipad that will not fit in my coat is a loser.
That's why I'm betting my professional reputation on the next iPad Mini, the iPad Micro,being narrower and probably, sporting a Retina display this time.
.
As noted, no context, no meaning.

If the 7" tablet market eventual settled out at 30% Apple, 70% everyone else, I think Apple would be pretty happy with that.

Check back with us at round 2. It will still be 4:3.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 09:18 PM   #217
lianlua
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Originally Posted by Spungoflex View Post
You know full well that he never said anything about the size of the screen causing pixels to shrink.
This is what he said:

"Because they set out to make a Mini, the ppi is determined, CAUSALLY, by the size of the screen."

There is no other interpretation of that sentence. The size of the screen does not cause pixel size to change, contrary to what the both of you seem to enjoy insisting. The number of inches in the display does not change the density of the pixels it contains.

Last edited by lianlua; Nov 17, 2012 at 03:34 PM.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 10:44 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by zephyrnoid View Post
That's why I'm betting my professional reputation on the next iPad Mini, the iPad Micro,being narrower and probably, sporting a Retina display this time.
Anyone who wants a device so tiny it fits any pocket get a Galaxy Note. The rest of us need a *functional tablet*, and that means 4:3.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 04:14 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by lianlua View Post
Maybe English isn't your first language. This is what he said:

"Because they set out to make a Mini, the ppi is determined, CAUSALLY, by the size of the screen."

The size of the screen does not cause pixel size to change, contrary to what the both of you seem to enjoy insisting. The number of inches in the display does not change the density of the pixels it contains.
This is a rather silly game of semantics and not really correct. You are assuming PPI is held constant when the screen size changes, so therefore it doesn't change. That is tautological. PPI does not have to change, but that doesn't mean it won't. In fact, due to Apple's desire for integer doubling of resolution or nothing at all, it's far more likely that PPI would change with screen size.

All of these dimensions and derived measurements interplay with human factor considerations to arrive at the final product. One can't assume that PPI is held constant or not without all of the evaluation that Apple went through to decide on what was acceptable.

Last edited by rkuo; Nov 8, 2012 at 11:00 AM.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 11:44 AM   #220
emaja
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Really, how hard is it to understand "pixels per inch?"
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 12:28 PM   #221
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Really, how hard is it to understand "pixels per inch?"
I love the Pixies!
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 12:32 PM   #222
zhenya
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Really, how hard is it to understand "pixels per inch?"
That depends. How many inches are we talking about???

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Old Nov 8, 2012, 12:50 PM   #223
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why do you guys

do this to yourself. DO NOT BUY IT. RETURN IT and let apple know they can NOT suck up your money because they know now they can put s*** underspecced products well knowingly that in 5-6 months when the upgrade or ver 2 comes out you will get it and say FINALLY ! this is the version we have been waiting for !. F THAT. how predictable is this company. we all know this thing is getting the retina display and its going to be such a big deal, how they didint just take a retina display and shrink it down to the mini's innovative features haha what a joke

they should of released it with a6 and 1gig ram and at least 1080p. thats worth 329$. right now not so much. and u know what ? im going to vote agaisnt it by not buying it and only buying the model i know i should get. if you guys keep doing this they will release a joke version first all the time and the upgrade will never add new features just tech thats already available for upgrade.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 12:52 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by isephmusic View Post
do this to yourself. DO NOT BUY IT. RETURN IT and let apple know they can NOT suck up your money because they know now they can put s*** underspecced products well knowingly that in 5-6 months when the upgrade or ver 2 comes out you will get it and say FINALLY ! this is the version we have been waiting for !. F THAT. how predictable is this company. we all know this thing is getting the retina display and its going to be such a big deal, how they didint just take a retina display and shrink it down to the mini's innovative features haha what a joke

they should of released it with a6 and 1gig ram and at least 1080p. thats worth 329$. right now not so much. and u know what ? im going to vote agaisnt it by not buying it and only buying the model i know i should get. if you guys keep doing this they will release a joke version first all the time and the upgrade will never add new features just tech thats already available for upgrade.
What if we like it and find it useful. Then do we have your permission to buy it?
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 12:54 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nStyle View Post
After receiving the Mini and playing with it for the better part of the evening, the screen is definitely leaving something to be desired.

Only one reviewer so far has hit the nail on the head: Cult of Mac.

They basically sum it up by saying this is the most frustrating Apple device EVER. It is not worth a penny more than $329 and it will potentially be the best Apple product ever if it gets a retina upgrade next year.

I like it a lot so I don't think I will return it since what is available is simply reality, but man am I noticing the screen difference.
The screen is the main reason I cancelled my order. I have to add that I have an iPad 1st gen and iPad 3rd gen.

If the mini gets the retina it is for me the best iPad due to the weight mainly. I like the size as well. But without the retina its simple to expensive for what it adds over the other two iPads. Just my 2 cents.
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