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Old Nov 5, 2012, 10:37 AM   #51
LIVEFRMNYC
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Only the antichrist can predict the return of Jesus. Please don't elect antichrist Romney.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 10:47 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Macaroony View Post
What I just don't understand, what's it to you what a woman is doing to her body even if you don't agree with it based on your religious morals? How does an abortion unrelated to you affect you? Where is that magical umbilical cord?

If one person can give me a logical answer - one undeniable reason - to those questions, I'll never ridicule religious morals in politics ever again.
The other side of the argument is simply this....they are speaking up for the baby being carried that cannot speak up for itself.

You may not agree with them on when life starts and things like that, but that's the other side of that coin. For folks that oppose abortion (and this is speaking in general terms) it has nothing to do with any sort of "war on women" or working to control what a woman does with her body.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 10:51 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
You may not agree with them on when life starts and things like that, but that's the other side of that coin. For folks that oppose abortion (and this is speaking in general terms) it has nothing to do with any sort of "war on women" or working to control what a woman does with her body.
I'll disagree with you on this.

I think women's sexuality/freedom frightens the reactionary mind.

The desire to control women (IMO) definitely plays a part.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 10:58 AM   #54
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I prefer keeping simple things simple, hence my two-sentence post that you replied to, but I'll do my best to answer your questions/issues:

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Originally Posted by bradl View Post
I think the disconnect here is between "faith" and "religious faith". Or should I say, "faith tied to a religion"... Many people have faith and belief. Anvil (the band) had faith and belief that they were going to be rock stars, and 27 years later, after all of their peers have either retired or gone to super stardom, they finally have made it. 27 years and 15 albums later than everyone else. I have faith and belief that if I keep up in my business practices and finally believing in myself, I will be walking away from my full-time job to go to the best job I could ever have: Full Time Dad. Does that take religious faith? no. But it takes faith, which we all (liberals, conservatives, and others) should have.
Yes. I'd assumed it was self-evident that my use of "people of faith" denoted "people of religious faith." Apologies for my economy of words.

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If we are supposed to be a tolerant religion...
And there you have steered the conversation completely differently away from where it was. I expressly talked about people with vociferous hate towards people of [religious] faith. Unlike you, I did not and do not say that to not be vociferously hateful is to necessarily be tolerant. There is a name for that kind of rhetorical trick but I can't remember what it is.

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should we also not control our own vociferous hatred of those who hold their faith in their religion high, even if that religion isn't our own, or near our own?
There is no "should," at least I did not suggest a moral or ethical action be taken. I very simply, concisely said (and quoted by you):

Quote:
I just don't understand why people who can't control their vociferous hatred towards people of faith - regardless of what precipitates the hate or how justified the hate is - choose to nonetheless self-identify as "liberal." I guess they simply like that "liberal" once denoted open-mindedness and they desire to appear aligned with that trait.
Nowhere in there I suggest anyone has a moral imperative of any sort. I simply noted the hypocrisy of some self-proclaimed "liberals" - a word that you have not mentioned in your lengthy response (except tacitly when making a list "liberals, concervatives..."). In fact, as I now re-read your lengthy post, it seems you are going to great lengths not to use that word which is surprising given that it is that word upon which my entire quote was founded.

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If an Islamist, no matter how radical they are, has faith that their religion will grant them those 72 virgins if they martyr themselves, shouldn't we also be tolerant of that?
Once again "should," and once again no mention of "liberal."

I don't care if people are or aren't "tolerant." I am talking about the distance between someone who recognizes him/herself in the traditional, every-day-usage definition of "liberal" - as in being open-mindedness - yet still has vociferous hatred of people of [religious] faith.

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What of those religions that offered sacrifices? What of those religions that are ridiculed for many reasons, or thought as heresy? Wicca, Druidism, Paganism, Shamanism and many others, which people have faith in, were (and in some cases, still are) persecuted in areas of our own country.
What of them? You tell me.

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Where is the control of the tolerance and hatred there?
I don't know? You tell me. I'm not asking anyone to control or tolerate anything. Hell, I'm not asking anyone to do anything. I am, once again, pointing out the distance between identifying oneself as an open-minded liberal all the while being vociferously hateful to people of [religious] faith.

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BL.
K4.

Last edited by kavika411; Nov 5, 2012 at 11:06 AM.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 11:10 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
I'll disagree with you on this.

I think women's sexuality/freedom frightens the reactionary mind.

The desire to control women (IMO) definitely plays a part.
There may be some small patches of that here and there, but that is generally not the case.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 11:25 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kavika411 View Post
Nowhere in there I suggest anyone has a moral imperative of any sort. I simply noted the hypocrisy of some self-proclaimed "liberals" - a word that you have not mentioned in your lengthy response (except tacitly when making a list "liberals, concervatives...").

I am, once again, pointing out the distance between identifying oneself as an open-minded liberal all the while being vociferously hateful to people of [religious] faith.
I think there are some who self identify as liberal who violently oppose the intolerance, bigotry and discrimination that is sometimes embodied by those who are religious. I think those people "self-identify" as liberal because liberals generally oppose intolerance, bigotry and discrimination.

A good parallel is why do those who are racist often self-identify with being Republican or conservative? It isn't that all Republicans or conservatives are racists, but that the GOP has for years stood for the same things that racists have. Segregation (be it physical or economic), discrimination, bigotry, etc.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 11:39 AM   #57
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I think there are some who self identify as liberal who violently oppose the intolerance, bigotry and discrimination that is sometimes embodied by those who are religious. I think those people "self-identify" as liberal because liberals generally oppose intolerance, bigotry and discrimination.

A good parallel is why do those who are racist often self-identify with being Republican or conservative? It isn't that all Republicans or conservatives are racists, but that the GOP has for years stood for the same things that racists have. Segregation (be it physical or economic), discrimination, bigotry, etc.
I disagree with that. This is just me so..

After watching what has gone on over the past almost 4 years my view is that most republicans are indeed racist. They may not admit it but it's the only conclusion I can think of after watching how they react to Obama.

Good example is these republican "christians" voting for a man with a false god just because they don't like a president who just so happens to be black.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 11:51 AM   #58
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I disagree with that. This is just me so..

After watching what has gone on over the past almost 4 years my view is that most republicans are indeed racist. They may not admit it but it's the only conclusion I can think of after watching how they react to Obama.

Good example is these republican "christians" voting for a man with a false god just because they don't like a president who just so happens to be black.
I understand that position, but I know a lot of Republicans who aren't racist at all. I also know a lot of Democrats who are. In the context of why a racist might self identify as a republican, I think that affiliation makes a lot of sense when you look at the policies of the GOP. I don't, however, see much in the way of explanation why a racist might self identify as a Democrat. There seem to be other reasons for that affiliation.

I just point that out as a parallel to those who are vehemently opposed to religion. The Democrats have policies that are very much for equality, separation of church and state, and opposition to religious zealots and their infiltration of the political process (a la Jesus Camp). It would make sense for these people to self identify with the Democrats/liberals who are like minded in their opposition to theocracy.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 12:42 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by kavika411 View Post
Once again I agree. I just don't understand why people who can't control their vociferous hatred towards people of faith - regardless of what precipitates the hate or how justified the hate is - choose to nonetheless self-identify as "liberal." I guess they simply like that "liberal" once denoted open-mindedness and they desire to appear aligned with that trait.
It depends on your definition of "open-mindedness" and "tolerance". I, for one, have no particular hatred towards people of faith. I don't care if someone believes in God, Jesus, Muhammed, a Flying Spaghetti Monster, or anything else....

I do however have a problem when someone of faith thinks that their own morals, or the morals of their God, should have a determination in my rights. No matter what I think of them or their "religion" I would never advocate taking away their right to believe.

I disagree with them, but I would never try and take away their rights because of this disagreement. I just ask for the same.

Why are we always seeing the religious use their faith as an excuse to withhold rights? And you may say that many liberals are not open minded, but please point out a situation where we use our beliefs as an excuse to make laws or take away their right to believe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
The other side of the argument is simply this....they are speaking up for the baby being carried that cannot speak up for itself.

You may not agree with them on when life starts and things like that, but that's the other side of that coin. For folks that oppose abortion (and this is speaking in general terms) it has nothing to do with any sort of "war on women" or working to control what a woman does with her body.
I think this thinking is naive, especially in light of some of the statements that government officals have made recently, and laws they have tried to enact.

One after another (including someone who could be the next VP of the US) they have shown complete disrespect and ignorance towards women and the rights of women. And in some cases, a complete disregard for science.

It's obvious that many in the GOP have no respect for women. And it all starts at the top IMHO. If you want to blame it on their "respect for life" you can, but don't you wonder why this "respect" disappears as soon as the baby is born?
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 01:02 PM   #60
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If you want to blame it on their "respect for life" you can, but don't you wonder why this "respect" disappears as soon as the baby is born?
Yep. Force someone through an unwanted pregnancy, bring an unwanted child in to the world, and then throw the child on the streets without food, health care or education. Then, when they commit a crime because of the lack of these things, give them the death penalty.

"Pro-life"


It's a crock of ****. It's all about controlling people. If they actually cared about life, they wouldn't be advocating to take away so many things that so many people rely on on a day to day basis to live their lives.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 01:12 PM   #61
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Incredible that we have someone with 19th century views of the cosmos and its creation running for president.

This really shows there are 2 Americas. One modern, scientific, socially-conscious, empathetic, and wanting to coexist with the rest of the world. The other- superstitious, dogmatic, spiteful, arogant, and concerned with self only.

I hope the former prevails.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 01:12 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
It's obvious that many in the GOP have no respect for women. And it all starts at the top IMHO. If you want to blame it on their "respect for life" you can, but don't you wonder why this "respect" disappears as soon as the baby is born?
I'll get into this a little bit with you (and if anyone else want to jump in that's cool too, but let's keep it civil. Get hostile and start throwing out frustrated expletives if you like, but I'm just going to ignore you if you do).

I see that last line you threw out repeated a lot by folks on here, about how people that are pro-life let the respect for life disappear as soon as the kid is born. I assume that you are talking about welfare reform, education reform, and things like that, but just so I'm clear I'm just going to ask.....what specifically are you talking about?
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 01:21 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
I'll get into this a little bit with you (and if anyone else want to jump in that's cool too, but let's keep it civil. Get hostile and start throwing out frustrated expletives if you like, but I'm just going to ignore you if you do).

I see that last line you threw out repeated a lot by folks on here, about how people that are pro-life let the respect for life disappear as soon as the kid is born. I assume that you are talking about welfare reform, education reform, and things like that, but just so I'm clear I'm just going to ask.....what specifically are you talking about?
Specifically, I was talking about a few things: A complete LACK of respect for women. For single mothers. For women who have to make the very hard decision to have an abortion. For women who want inexpensive access to birth control and other women's services. For homosexuals who they don't believe deserve the same rights as everyone else.

Do you know how many women are being left in the cold because of the incorrect perception of Planned Parenthood? And I'm not just talking about abortions, because it's about 2% of what they do. The GOP has chosen to completely ignore all of the good they do because they advocate abortions. In the meantime, so many women are losing access to all of the other services they provide.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 01:28 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
Specifically, I was talking about a few things: A complete LACK of respect for women. For single mothers. For women who have to make the very hard decision to have an abortion. For women who want inexpensive access to birth control and other women's services. For homosexuals who they don't believe deserve the same rights as everyone else.

Do you know how many women are being left in the cold because of the incorrect perception of Planned Parenthood? And I'm not just talking about abortions, because it's about 2% of what they do. The GOP has chosen to completely ignore all of the good they do because they advocate abortions. In the meantime, so many women are losing access to all of the other services they provide.
In addition to the women's health services they provide, the 2% abortion services is nothing to be ashamed of and something to stand up and fight for. This is a choice that should be left to the woman (per Supreme Court), and Planned Parenthood is helping to ensure that choice is made available.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 01:55 PM   #65
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Only 2% of Planned Parenthood's activities are related to Abortion. In other words, for reasons I cannot understand, the same people who argue for 2nd Amendment rights for self defense, want to destroy an organization for spending 2% of its time defending women against unwanted physical attack/damage.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 02:12 PM   #66
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...
Good example is these republican "christians" voting for a man with a false god just because they don't like a president who just so happens to be black.

... black and a Christian.

I still can't get over this.

After years of hearing how heretical the Mormon Church is, now they're all voting for someone who is one...

Compromise is compromise...
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 02:20 PM   #67
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... black and a Christian.

I still can't get over this.

After years of hearing how heretical the Mormon Church is, now they're all voting for someone who is one...

Compromise is compromise...
Check out www.pastors4huckabeeblog.com if you want an interesting view of this issue.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 02:58 PM   #68
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... black and a Christian.

I still can't get over this.

After years of hearing how heretical the Mormon Church is, now they're all voting for someone who is one...

Compromise is compromise...

It's all about hating the black guy in the White House. Billy Graham's website said Mormonism was a cult until he visited with Romney the other day.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 03:03 PM   #69
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It's all about hating the black guy in the White House. Billy Graham's website said Mormonism was a cult until he visited with Romney the other day.
I saw that. It's sad. I used to have a sliver of respect for billy graham. Now that's gone. He's just another Christian that has fallen away like prophesy states.

ymmv
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 03:09 PM   #70
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just so happens to be black.
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Originally Posted by gkarris View Post
... black and a Christian.
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Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
It's all about hating the black guy in the White House.
I must say it's refreshing that we made it to at least page three of a non-race thread before race was needlessly injected.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 03:12 PM   #71
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I must say it's refreshing that we made it to at least page three of a non-race thread before race was needlessly injected.
This should not come as something new. It's been going on for almost four years.

And it's not needless. It's true.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 03:14 PM   #72
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This should not come as something new. It's been going on for almost four years.
I agree, but it's nice that the Left is getting away with it less and less with each passing year.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 03:16 PM   #73
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 03:24 PM   #74
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Check out www.pastors4huckabeeblog.com if you want an interesting view of this issue.
Thanks for the link.

Here's the page on it:

http://pastors4huckabeeblog.com/7-qu...-for-a-mormon/

I actually agree with this. If a person is SO ANTI-MORMON as to teach as such within the church denomination, why would you vote for one?

Especially if the other candidate is a Christian?

From Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama

Quote:
In an interview with the evangelical periodical Christianity Today, Obama stated: "I am a Christian, and I am a devout Christian. I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that that faith gives me a path to be cleansed of sin and have eternal life."[314] On September 27, 2010, Obama released a statement commenting on his religious views saying "I'm a Christian by choice. My family didn't—frankly, they weren't folks who went to church every week. And my mother was one of the most spiritual people I knew, but she didn't raise me in the church. So I came to my Christian faith later in life, and it was because the precepts of Jesus Christ spoke to me in terms of the kind of life that I would want to lead—being my brothers' and sisters' keeper, treating others as they would treat me."[315][316]
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 03:27 PM   #75
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I must say it's refreshing that we made it to at least page three of a non-race thread before race was needlessly injected.

Keep putting your head in the sand Kavi. How anyone can say that racism hasn't been a big part of this campaign is beyond me.
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