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Old Nov 8, 2012, 08:38 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by topgunn View Post
I am sorry if I offended you. It was not my intent.
Your offense comes through your willful ignorance. You seem utterly shocked that anyone would vote for their own tribe and refuse to acknowledge that Catholics voted overwhelmingly for Kennedy, Mormons for Romney and Texans for bush. Even worse, this is only the second time that a black person has made it to the presidential finals. Sure, Jesse ran and probably captured a fair number of black votes, but nobody thought that he'd win.

The problem with southerners and with people over the age of 45 is that they can only see Obama's skin color. They refuse to acknowledge that Romney is a non-Christian, if one goes by strict Mormon teaching. They also refuse to acknowledge that Kennedy's election was unbelievable. Catholics were NOT considered to be white from the time of the Famine until WWII. They weren't black but they were in some ill-defined grey zone.

Get over it. He won and he won this time around because the Republicans campaigned on the elimination of basic human rights. Oh, they were fine with old, white people continuing to have access to those rights but to everyone else they gave the middle finger.

You and your party just dug your own grave.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 08:59 PM   #152
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Your offense comes through your willful ignorance. You seem utterly shocked that anyone would vote for their own tribe and refuse to acknowledge that Catholics voted overwhelmingly for Kennedy, Mormons for Romney and Texans for bush. Even worse, this is only the second time that a black person has made it to the presidential finals. Sure, Jesse ran and probably captured a fair number of black votes, but nobody thought that he'd win.

The problem with southerners and with people over the age of 45 is that they can only see Obama's skin color. They refuse to acknowledge that Romney is a non-Christian, if one goes by strict Mormon teaching. They also refuse to acknowledge that Kennedy's election was unbelievable. Catholics were NOT considered to be white from the time of the Famine until WWII. They weren't black but they were in some ill-defined grey zone.

Get over it. He won and he won this time around because the Republicans campaigned on the elimination of basic human rights. Oh, they were fine with old, white people continuing to have access to those rights but to everyone else they gave the middle finger.

You and your party just dug your own grave.
Just want to make sure I've got the chronology right, Ugg.

Topgunn apologized if he offended, and said it was not his intent.

In response, you trashed white people, older people, Republicans, and topgunn himself (albeit just indirectly enough that you won't get reprimanded).

Did I leave any steps out? Thanks.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 08:59 PM   #153
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You and your party just dug your own grave.
Shhhhhh! Don't tell them. I have heard that the GOP feels they lost the election because the weren't conservative enough.

Because those people in the middle who couldn't stomach the gross loss of individual rights and voted for President Obama may have voted for Gov Romney if the GOP was just a bit FURTHER to the right. If only MORE of our civil rights were in jeopardy.

So don't tell them. Let them go even further right for 2014 and 2016.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 09:09 PM   #154
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So don't tell them. Let them go even further right for 2014 and 2016.
In some ways I agree with you. If conservatives want to beat dead horse policies at their own expense, then why should I care?

But in reality, this country works best when both parties apply their different approaches to problem solving. I actually welcome conservative's input ... so long as they acknowledge the reality behind the issues this country faces.

Lately, it seems as if conservatives have left reality behind. And I believe that's a big reason why they didn't win fare well this election.

I urge our conservative friends to move back to the center and join Obama and the Democrats in dealing with the problems we are facing today. Stop trying to fight the battles that were decided nearly 40 years ago.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 09:23 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by kavika411 View Post
Just want to make sure I've got the chronology right, Ugg.

Topgunn apologized if he offended, and said it was not his intent.

In response, you trashed white people, older people, Republicans, and topgunn himself (albeit just indirectly enough that you won't get reprimanded).

Did I leave any steps out? Thanks.
I'll be honest with you. The only subgroup of Americans that I am in the least bit prejudiced against are white southerners. I grew up in Montana which was almost totally white. The only minority group was native Americans. Sure, there were racists, but their racism was directed at an unknown and very distant group of people.

Fast forward to my adult life on the left coast... For the first time, I began meeting people from all over the US and all over the world. The only person I met who was more racist than the average southerner was from South Africa. Oh, sure, there was an effort to be civil towards blacks but the racism ran so deep that it eclipsed all else. It was almost visceral. To be honest, I was fascinated when I saw a white southerner interact with a black American and still am. The ritual involved is almost medieval.

Southern white racism is obviously not genetic, but it seems to be so deeply rooted that I don't know what can end it. Last Tuesday, white southerners got a wake up call. Despite the widespread efforts at disenfranchisement, black voters came out in droves. Is it just because Obama's skin is black or is it just because black Americans want their voices to be heard? In 2008 they wanted a black man in the White House. This time around, they wanted someone who cared about their rights as human beings.

Y'all need to wake up. The world is changing.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 05:29 AM   #156
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Yes I can understand it must be annoying when people expect you to live in reality as opposed to a fantasy which (while non existent) is comforting.
So your saying people who believe in God really don't have the rights and we are to be treated as 2nd class... Sounds familiar...
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 06:12 AM   #157
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So your saying people who believe in God really don't have the rights and we are to be treated as 2nd class... Sounds familiar...
Sounds about right.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 06:25 AM   #158
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I'll be honest with you. The only subgroup of Americans that I am in the least bit prejudiced against are white southerners. I grew up in Montana which was almost totally white. The only minority group was native Americans. Sure, there were racists, but their racism was directed at an unknown and very distant group of people.

Fast forward to my adult life on the left coast... For the first time, I began meeting people from all over the US and all over the world. The only person I met who was more racist than the average southerner was from South Africa. Oh, sure, there was an effort to be civil towards blacks but the racism ran so deep that it eclipsed all else. It was almost visceral. To be honest, I was fascinated when I saw a white southerner interact with a black American and still am. The ritual involved is almost medieval.

Southern white racism is obviously not genetic, but it seems to be so deeply rooted that I don't know what can end it. Last Tuesday, white southerners got a wake up call. Despite the widespread efforts at disenfranchisement, black voters came out in droves. Is it just because Obama's skin is black or is it just because black Americans want their voices to be heard? In 2008 they wanted a black man in the White House. This time around, they wanted someone who cared about their rights as human beings.

Y'all need to wake up. The world is changing.
While I appreciate - and I'm genuine when I say that - you proving again how it's so-called liberals who relish in stereotyping large groups, my point was to inquire simply if I was correct that you took one poster's apology (someone new to the PRSI at that) as a springboard for all your vitriol. It appears the answer is indeed yes. I congratulate you once again in your ability to launch a personal attack but with words that fly under the mod radar.

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Old Nov 9, 2012, 09:31 AM   #159
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While I appreciate - and I'm genuine when I say that - you proving again how it's so-called liberals who relish in stereotyping large groups, my point was to inquire simply if I was correct that you took one poster's apology (someone new to the PRSI at that) as a springboard for all your vitriol. It appears the answer is indeed yes. I congratulate you once again in your ability to launch a personal attack but with words that fly under the mod radar.
Thank you. It's called diplomacy.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 09:34 AM   #160
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So your saying people who believe in God really don't have the rights and we are to be treated as 2nd class... Sounds familiar...
No I'm saying if you literally believe in Santa clause I don't want you as my president, my doctor, my teacher etc. But as long as you keep your fairy stories to your magic tree house we can probably get a-long. But when you start trying to teach intelligent design, or legislating away women's or gay's rights gtfo.

People who believe in god should be considered mentally deranged in some capacity. Luckily (for them) their mental delusions are so widespread and socially acceptable that it is those who actually chose to live in reality who are considered "mentally unstable" or "untrustworthy".
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 10:06 AM   #161
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Southern white racism is obviously not genetic, but it seems to be so deeply rooted that I don't know what can end it. Last Tuesday, white southerners got a wake up call. Despite the widespread efforts at disenfranchisement, black voters came out in droves. Is it just because Obama's skin is black or is it just because black Americans want their voices to be heard? In 2008 they wanted a black man in the White House. This time around, they wanted someone who cared about their rights as human beings.

Y'all need to wake up. The world is changing.
I haven't much time in the deep south but growing up in California, I had views of the white south that are much like your beliefs. It was reinforced by my mother's experiences as a fairly dark skinned native american/Mexican-American. Moving to MD and having spent some time in MD/VA and NC, I've sen many different ranges on racism and acceptance. Being light skinned myself and most people thinking I'm white (except non-whites), people tend to say things to me that they wouldn't otherwise say. I have to say I've heard more racist stuff in CA than I've heard here. I've known many people who have grown up in the south (including my in-laws) and I don't get racist vibes from them.

I think a lot of it is fear though, if you live in a mostly white neighborhood/town and have grown up with your parents, grandparents, etc, being racist, then you tend to hold those ideals. You fear anyone of color because you don't know. I don't think all white people are racist, I don't think all southerners are racist and I'll say white people aren't the only racist people around. It is one way to boost yourself by making people an 'other' and inferior. It has existed for thousands of years and I'm sure it'll still continue.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 06:57 PM   #162
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No I'm saying if you literally believe in Santa clause I don't want you as my president, my doctor, my teacher etc. But as long as you keep your fairy stories to your magic tree house we can probably get a-long. But when you start trying to teach intelligent design, or legislating away women's or gay's rights gtfo.

People who believe in god should be considered mentally deranged in some capacity. Luckily (for them) their mental delusions are so widespread and socially acceptable that it is those who actually chose to live in reality who are considered "mentally unstable" or "untrustworthy".
Hate to be the one to bring this up but, this argument could be held on both sides of the table. Seems pretty arrogant of you to make such a statement, honestly. Whatever happen to everyone just getting along?
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 01:27 PM   #163
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No I'm saying if you literally believe in Santa clause I don't want you as my president, my doctor, my teacher etc. But as long as you keep your fairy stories to your magic tree house we can probably get a-long. But when you start trying to teach intelligent design, or legislating away women's or gay's rights gtfo.
.
Newsflash: not everyone that believes in God believes in taking the rights of others away.

Just ask President Obama...
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 01:36 PM   #164
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Newsflash: not everyone that believes in God believes in taking the rights of others away.

Just ask President Obama...
Nobody will argue that point.

However, in terms of the people who advocate taking rights away (marriage, abortion, contraception, etc..) how many of them are justifying it based on their religious beliefs?
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 01:41 PM   #165
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Nobody will argue that point.

However, in terms of the people who advocate taking rights away (marriage, abortion, contraception, etc..) how many of them are justifying it based on their religious beliefs?
according the the raw vote numbers, looks around half the country (or, just ask Mitt.... )

with the election over, lets just band together and hope things get better, I believe we made the right choice - again...
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 02:36 PM   #166
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Mormons have never been discriminated against either.
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Is this sarcasm? You do know why they ended up in the middle of nowhere Utah and why Romney's dad was born in Mexico, right?
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Umm, because they were practicing a non-christian, polygamous religion in Missouri and because they bought up so much land, they were seen as a threat to the local way of life. Mormons fled en masse to Mexico and Canada because they felt polygamy was more important than American citizenship. After they fled Mexico, where their ways were viewed in the same way as in Missouri, they lived in El Paso from government handouts. Is your interpretation different?
I suggest you read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missour...utive_Order_44

and this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinoi..._Mormon_Exodus
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 08:50 PM   #167
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I have a question too. What liberal ever said that any conservative was doing that? What liberal ever said you were forced to attend church? Ok, two questions.
I went overboard with my response. I know Conservatives aren’t physically forcing anyone to attend church or read the bible. The problem I have is reading outrageous comments toward Conservative Christians. Better yet, any Christian. The best thing about America, we the people have our freedom. If you want to believe in Jesus, Buddha, Mohamed, Allah ect. Doesn’t make you a “Nut” it makes you a believer. Nothing wrong with that. You can believe Santa Claus is you savior. WHO CARES!

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The problem becomes when you want to take your religious beliefs and legislate them on others. But you knew that.
Who’s doing this? If it is happening, how is it effecting you?


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You're a nut and so is Mr. Obama.
You live in a Country that was controlled by Hitler. Yet you call my president a Nut? If you don’t like people talking about Jesus. Ignore them. As far as Germany goes, I don’t have a clue about your current government/religious freedoms and really, I do not care.

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Since you asked. Definitely. In fact, I find the whole Pentecostal/charismatic/prosperity doctrine wacky to the point of offensiveness.
Offensive? Why? Ignore the whole “Pentecostal/charismatic/prosperity wacky doctrine” and move on with you’re life.

“To suggest that the money rich are destined to heaven and the poor to hell is a perversion of the gospels.”

Source?
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 10:36 AM   #168
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Who’s doing this? If it is happening, how is it effecting you?
Is this a serious question?

So you don't believe the politicans who have tried to make gay marriage illegal, make stricter regulations for abortion, or believe that Roe v. Wade should be overturned aren't doing based on their own religious values?

And only those who are "effected" have the right to be upset? How much more selfish can you get? You talk about freedom, yet not everyone in this country is being treated equally. That should upset every American. N

And let me ask you a question. You said you don't "agree" with homosexuality. Why?
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 11:40 AM   #169
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Who’s doing this? If it is happening, how is it effecting you?




Open your eyes man. 'Who' is doing this all over the country, primarily in red states or are you unaware of all the attempts to legislate against gay marriage, abortion rights, voting rights, etc.

And yes, trying to use your religion to deny or abridge the rights of others effects me, even if a transvaginal ultrasound will never be conducted on me.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 08:14 PM   #170
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Open your eyes man. 'Who' is doing this all over the country, primarily in red states or are you unaware of all the attempts to legislate against gay marriage, abortion rights, voting rights, etc.

And yes, trying to use your religion to deny or abridge the rights of others effects me, even if a transvaginal ultrasound will never be conducted on me.
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Is this a serious question?

So you don't believe the politicans who have tried to make gay marriage illegal, make stricter regulations for abortion, or believe that Roe v. Wade should be overturned aren't doing based on their own religious values?

And only those who are "effected" have the right to be upset? How much more selfish can you get? You talk about freedom, yet not everyone in this country is being treated equally. That should upset every American. N

And let me ask you a question. You said you don't "agree" with homosexuality. Why?
It’s not only politicians that make gay marriage illegal. Back in 2008, here in California we had proposition 8 on the ballet. Yes on 8 keeps gay marriage illegal. No on 8 made gay marriage legal. Obviously with a very liberal state & with the majority politicians being democratic/liberal were all against prop 8 and yet it still passed. Why? Because the people in California spoke and voted on what they believed was right. To judge & attack someone by calling them Selfish, prejudice, haters ecs. Because they believe homosexuality is wrong. IMO are the ones that are Selfish/Haters. People who beat up and bully gays are the ones that are horrible sick people... Yes I’m Christian. Homosexuality is against my faith. Say all what you want about me and my religion, I will still stand by what I believe in. I will never disrespect by using words or fists to anyone that’s gay.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 08:34 PM   #171
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It’s not only politicians that make gay marriage illegal. Back in 2008, here in California we had proposition 8 on the ballet. Yes on 8 keeps gay marriage illegal. No on 8 made gay marriage legal. Obviously with a very liberal state & with the majority politicians being democratic/liberal were all against prop 8 and yet it still passed. Why? Because the people in California spoke and voted on what they believed was right. To judge & attack someone by calling them Selfish, prejudice, haters ecs. Because they believe homosexuality is wrong. IMO are the ones that are Selfish/Haters. People who beat up and bully gays are the ones that are horrible sick people... Yes I’m Christian. Homosexuality is against my faith. Say all what you want about me and my religion, I will still stand by what I believe in. I will never disrespect by using words or fists to anyone that’s gay.
Using the vote on Prop 8 isn't going to help your cause. The entire campaign was funded by the Roman Catholic Church and the LDS. They launched a campaign aimed at the bigots and the "haters". At those who, like you, feel that homosexuality is wrong "because of their faith". Fortunately, theirs was a brief victory. Ours will be much more long lasting. We've seen so much progress this year - for the first time citizens voted for us. And that trend will continue.

You may think you are not being disrespectful because you aren't screaming hate words or beating us up - but you don't have to do any of that to be harmful. If you had the opportunity to vote to make marriage legal for us, how would you vote? I would hope you would leave your faith outside the ballot box. If not, you would be hurting us just as much as if you were using your fists. If you don't think that's selfish, I don't know what is.

I don't care that you are religious. If you think it makes your life better, I'm all for it. I would never vote to take away your right to practice your faith. Why would you think it's OK to take away my rights? I don't believe in your God - why should I have to answer to him?

It amazes me that those who are religious get so defensive about how people see them. Imagine if we took those views and tried to legislate our morality. Would you hide in a closet or would you fight for your rights?
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 08:41 PM   #172
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It’s not only politicians that make gay marriage illegal. Back in 2008, here in California we had proposition 8 on the ballet. Yes on 8 keeps gay marriage illegal. No on 8 made gay marriage legal. Obviously with a very liberal state & with the majority politicians being democratic/liberal were all against prop 8 and yet it still passed. Why? Because the people in California spoke and voted on what they believed was right. To judge & attack someone by calling them Selfish, prejudice, haters ecs. Because they believe homosexuality is wrong. IMO are the ones that are Selfish/Haters. People who beat up and bully gays are the ones that are horrible sick people... Yes I’m Christian. Homosexuality is against my faith. Say all what you want about me and my religion, I will still stand by what I believe in. I will never disrespect by using words or fists to anyone that’s gay.
Yeah, but you're imposing your values on others to prevent them from something that doesn't hurt you or anyone else. The constitution protects you from others imposing their values on you and your faith, how'd you feel about that being taken away? New rule, you're forbidden to attend church because the new atheist majority doesn't like it when people do that. "But I'm not hurting anyone or intruding by doing so, what's the problem?" Oh, the problem is that we think it's wrong, that's all you need to know. We think it's a pesky habit and we don't want to risk you influencing our children. Ha. In your face, minority, now you know who's boss.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 08:48 PM   #173
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It’s not only politicians that make gay marriage illegal. Back in 2008, here in California we had proposition 8 on the ballet. Yes on 8 keeps gay marriage illegal. No on 8 made gay marriage legal. Obviously with a very liberal state & with the majority politicians being democratic/liberal were all against prop 8 and yet it still passed. Why? Because the people in California spoke and voted on what they believed was right. To judge & attack someone by calling them Selfish, prejudice, haters ecs. Because they believe homosexuality is wrong. IMO are the ones that are Selfish/Haters. People who beat up and bully gays are the ones that are horrible sick people... Yes I’m Christian. Homosexuality is against my faith. Say all what you want about me and my religion, I will still stand by what I believe in. I will never disrespect by using words or fists to anyone that’s gay.
We're selfish because we don't think it's anyone's business to tell others who they can and cannot marry? Because we think things that won't affect us in any way actually won't affect us in any way? I'm sorry, but there is no way you can argue that the idea of "live and let live" is selfish.

Prop 8 probably wouldn't have even passed without the scare tactics and undisclosed LDS funding.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 03:30 PM   #174
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It’s not only politicians that make gay marriage illegal. Back in 2008, here in California we had proposition 8 on the ballet. Yes on 8 keeps gay marriage illegal. No on 8 made gay marriage legal. Obviously with a very liberal state & with the majority politicians being democratic/liberal were all against prop 8 and yet it still passed.
Only certain areas are liberal. mostly in the north. And we tend to be liberal in Presidential choices, though we have voted Republican that way before too. But inland, around Fresno and where you live, is not liberal. Orange County is not liberal. San Diego is not liberal. Imperial Valley and Riverside are not liberal. There are plenty of non liberal areas when you look at geography. And then when you have people from outside the state pumping money into scare tactic ads that say the gays want to come in and convert your children, that affects the vote. Then there were a lot of people who assumed that California voters would not pass such a measure so they sat on their hands and did nothing. Finally you had an inept campaign from the no side. So it is no wonder that things turned out the way they did given the circumstances.

Quote:
Why? Because the people in California spoke and voted on what they believed was right. To judge & attack someone by calling them Selfish, prejudice, haters ecs. Because they believe homosexuality is wrong. IMO are the ones that are Selfish/Haters. People who beat up and bully gays are the ones that are horrible sick people... Yes I’m Christian. Homosexuality is against my faith. Say all what you want about me and my religion, I will still stand by what I believe in. I will never disrespect by using words or fists to anyone that’s gay.
Bullying gay people goes beyond fist or words. There isn't much more disrespect you could give someone then telling them who they can and can't marry, who they should love, and what rights and benefits they should not get while you continue to enjoy them yourself. You might not think you are being selfish, but you in fact are.

Here's some questions to ask yourself:

1. When you don't agree with a book or movie, do you try to ban it for others? Or do you just not read or see it yourself?

2. When you don't like a particular food, do you try to outlaw it? Or do you just not eat it yourself?

3. When there is another religion that you disagree with, do you try to ban it? Or do you just not go to that particular church?

4. When you see two people who you personally do not feel are right for each other, do you let them live their lives, or do you try to ban their marriage too?
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