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Old Nov 7, 2012, 08:27 PM   #51
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Yesterday for governor, the PPD won, which is the party that goes w/ Democrats. When Obama came not too long ago he ate a sandwich w/ the guy that won for governor.

Now the PPD is a party that approves the current status quo and not statehood. The guy that won is already complaining about the referendum and complaining that it does not have the current commonwealth status as a choice, etc. In the ballot, Statehood won by a good chunk so is kind of weird. The governor that was on when the ballot was made follows the republican party.

I think there are gonna be lots of blockades from here in PR politics and then the US congress to stop it from just being just a referendum poll. This will be the 4th referendum done and the older 3 referendums the majority voted for staying w/ the status quo for which in this election it wasn't a choice.
The status quo shouldn't be an option. Either become a state or be your own country. Receiving US federal benefits without paying taxes, nor having representation is just a bad move imo.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 08:47 PM   #52
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what do you think?
I'm curious about one thing.

Why not independence?

Why is that a less popular solution?
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 08:51 PM   #53
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i would like them to become a state, but in truth after re-looking at the ballot, the two-tier question was poorly formulated, as it doesn't make clear what the majority of the population want.
53% voted to change the current status
and 62% voted -if the status is to be changed- to become a State. this could be interpreted as 62% of the 53%, or about 32%.

it would have made more sense to give all the option on the same level:
[] US state
[] US territory (current)
[] associated commonwealth with US
[] independent country

or alternatively to ask the statehood question as a direct yes/no question
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 08:56 PM   #54
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i would like them to become a state ...
Not to be a negative, but I couldn't care less if they became a state.

I still don't understand why they wouldn't want to take their destiny in their own hands and become an independent nation.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 08:57 PM   #55
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I'm curious about one thing.

Why not independence?

Why is that a less popular solution?
I am from PR, but i imagine economic reasons play a big role.
in addition with about half of puerto ricans living in the US, if they become independent, what happens to them? would they automatically lose US citizenship? or they get to choose?
finally i suppose that at least some of them consider themselves 'americans' so they would not be cool with losing that
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 09:36 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Don't panic View Post
i would like them to become a state, but in truth after re-looking at the ballot, the two-tier question was poorly formulated, as it doesn't make clear what the majority of the population want.
53% voted to change the current status
and 62% voted -if the status is to be changed- to become a State. this could be interpreted as 62% of the 53%, or about 32%.

it would have made more sense to give all the option on the same level:
[] US state
[] US territory (current)
[] associated commonwealth with US
[] independent country

or alternatively to ask the statehood question as a direct yes/no question
It's 62% of the entire vote that went for statehood, even if someone voted no on changing the status they could still vote to say that if the status was to be changed they would prefer to become a state.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 10:48 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
The status quo shouldn't be an option. Either become a state or be your own country. Receiving US federal benefits without paying taxes, nor having representation is just a bad move imo.
Why not? if I was orig. from here, that would be the smartest choice IMO after you remove personal thoughts of heritage. Just because both presidential runners agree to help on the decision does not make it a reality, many gov. people are against making it a state.

Again, PR does pay taxes, just not all of them. There are many benefits for the US gov. to be involved here that surpassed the benefits the island receives if not they would have left longgg ago.

Importation/Exportation ridiculous laws made by the US gov have stalled any true emergent economic growth/power on the island and other stuff that really makes it the smart choice to not be independent country due to the way the economy works here.

I agree on the no representation, but I do understand that things have to be balanced.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 07:56 AM   #58
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Am I the only skeptic that finds "independent country" somewhat amusing?

I don't believe that the U.S. is in the business of letting their territories escape.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 07:57 AM   #59
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Why not? if I was orig. from here, that would be the smartest choice IMO after you remove personal thoughts of heritage. Just because both presidential runners agree to help on the decision does not make it a reality, many gov. people are against making it a state.

Again, PR does pay taxes, just not all of them. There are many benefits for the US gov. to be involved here that surpassed the benefits the island receives if not they would have left longgg ago.

Importation/Exportation ridiculous laws made by the US gov have stalled any true emergent economic growth/power on the island and other stuff that really makes it the smart choice to not be independent country due to the way the economy works here.

I agree on the no representation, but I do understand that things have to be balanced.
PR should be paying all federal taxes. What benefits are you talking about?
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 08:31 AM   #60
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It's 62% of the entire vote that went for statehood, even if someone voted no on changing the status they could still vote to say that if the status was to be changed they would prefer to become a state.
yes i know. that is why i said it 'could' be interpreted that way and the questions were poorly posed.
from the data you cannot conclude conclusively that the majority wants to be a state. it's only a majority (of the votes) with the qualifiers "if a change is to be made".

a direct yes/no question or a question with the four options would have been much better, and i am now thinking that if that was the case, statehood would have unlikely won.

i don't know how important a question is to most puertoricans, but if it is, they should have another referendum with just the yes/no question on statehood. it seems to me the question is too important to be decidend on semantics, but i am not from there, so i don't know.

are puerto ricans living in the US allowed to vote on these issues?
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Last edited by Don't panic; Nov 8, 2012 at 08:40 AM.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 09:20 AM   #61
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/me is against it

Cos I doubt there is a decent way to rewrite these lyrics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EksFe...eature=related
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 12:55 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Don't panic View Post
yes i know. that is why i said it 'could' be interpreted that way and the questions were poorly posed.
from the data you cannot conclude conclusively that the majority wants to be a state. it's only a majority (of the votes) with the qualifiers "if a change is to be made".

a direct yes/no question or a question with the four options would have been much better, and i am now thinking that if that was the case, statehood would have unlikely won.
The wording on the ballot seems clear to me. A direct yes/no question followed by a choice of three alternatives.

However, there is a ~430,000 vote difference between the yes/no question and the alternatives right now. That's enough to change the statehood vote if ALL the votes were for a different option.

Keep Current Status? Results
What Would You Like Instead? Results
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 02:55 PM   #63
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The wording on the ballot seems clear to me. A direct yes/no question followed by a choice of three alternatives.

However, there is a ~430,000 vote difference between the yes/no question and the alternatives right now. That's enough to change the statehood vote if ALL the votes were for a different option.

Keep Current Status? Results
What Would You Like Instead? Results
the problem is that answering 'NO' to question #1 could have meant that people wanted closer ties to the US (statehood) or that they wanted looser ties to the US (sovereign association or independence).
It is possible (likely, even) that a lot people who preferred to remain a US territory (and thus voted 'yes' on #1), when faced with the second question (where remaining a US territory was not an option), chose statehood because it was the only option available where strong ties with the US (and citizenship) would be maintained.

similarly, people that wanted change opted for looser ties to the US, however, their vote will enforce a solution that brings closer ties to the US.
clearly many who answered question 1 didn't like any of the option of question 2

according to these data out of 1,834,582 people who voted in the elections:

on question 1
797,916 people wanted to remain a territory
936,754 people wanted to 'change'
total: 1,734,775 votes for this question (=>~100,000 voted, but left this specific question blank)


in the independent question 2, and from the same pool of voters
804,126 people wanted statehood
438,464 people wanted a sovereign associated state
72,911 people wanted independence
total: 1,315,501 votes for this question (=>~520,000 voted, but left this specific question blank)

again, these results can be interpreted in many ways some point to a will to become a state, but many point to the opposite.
if the goal is to determine what the people of puerto rico want, this vote does not achieve it.

what i would have done is to have the 4 choices on the ballot, and if no choice had gained an absolute majority (>50%), have a run-off between the top two choices two weeks later
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 03:05 PM   #64
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Am I the only skeptic that finds "independent country" somewhat amusing?

I don't believe that the U.S. is in the business of letting their territories escape.
Erm... Do the Philippines or the Panama Canal Zone ring any bells?
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 04:06 AM   #65
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Erm... Do the Philippines or the Panama Canal Zone ring any bells?
Panama was never part of the US and why when the treaty ended they had to leave. Kinda like a lease.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 05:01 AM   #66
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Hey wait, this means we would have to go to the moon again. We have flags up there which will need changing!
Well, I read today that NASA is gearing up to go back. Soooooo....it could happen!

As for PR, I would like to see it become a state. I always thought it was dumb the way they can vote for a Presidential candidate in a Primary election but don't get to do the final vote between the two parties in November. That seems rather ridiculous.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 07:10 AM   #67
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Thumb resize.
Ya know, we haven't seen a non-squarish design like that in, I'd guess, a century...but that works.

I'm sure there'd be other designs that could be equally creative. Be great if there was some sort of contest!
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 08:09 AM   #68
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Puerto Rico doesn't have the economy to support itself as an independent country. They would become another Caribbean welfare country.

Statehood support surprises me, since they have all the rights of citizens today except for the ability to elect representatives to Congress and the President.

They receive federal money today for infrastructure and other needs, and pay no federal income tax.

Good for them for voting for statehood.

Congress needs to ratify the request, but I don't see this being a problem.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 09:41 AM   #69
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Puerto Rico doesn't have the economy to support itself as an independent country. They would become another Caribbean welfare country.
Puerto Rico has the world's 57th highest GNP, approximately ~98 billion dollars.

Jamaica, by comparison is ~13 billion.

Haiti, ~6 billion.

Quote:
The Economy of Puerto Rico, according to the World Bank, is a high income economy non-member of the OECD.

Despite its relatively small geographical area and limited availability of natural resources, Puerto Rico's productivity is exceptionally high. It has the highest nominal GDP per capita in Latin America, amounting to $26,588 in 2011. Also, Puerto Rico has the second most competitive economy among Ibero-American states, surpassed only by Chile, according to the latest World Economic Forum's Global Competitiveness Report. The commonwealth has modern infrastructure, a large public sector and an institutional framework guided by the regulations of U.S. federal agencies, most of which have an active and continued presence in the archipelago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Puerto_Rico
So I'm not sure why you think they don't have a sufficient economy. They are already head-and-shoulders beyond Jamaica and Haiti.

But it's really your philosophical standpoint that I'm curious about.

You're a conservative voice here in the forum. Yet you want Puerto Rico to trade in independence to join the United States. If Puerto Rico can't make it on it's own, then that would imply that in order to maintain it's economy, the U.S. will have to subsidize it. Puerto Rico will become something of a welfare state ... a drain [of a sort] on the U.S.

Can you explain how that works? Because I just don't get it. Why would a conservative support a nation losing it's sovereignty to get swallowed up by a big central state? It seems like just the opposite of what a conservative mind would get behind.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 10:14 AM   #70
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Panama was never part of the US and why when the treaty ended they had to leave. Kinda like a lease.
To quote Wikipedia: "On February 26, 1904, the Isthmian Canal Convention was proclaimed. In it, the Republic of Panama granted to the United States in perpetuity the use, occupation, and control of a zone of land and land under water for the construction, maintenance, operation, sanitation, and protection of the canal."

No lease - it was a US territory, and the US gave it up as it did with the Philippines. The colonialism of the US is bad enough that it need not be embellished with fiction.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 10:47 AM   #71
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Panama was never part of the US and why when the treaty ended they had to leave. Kinda like a lease.
are you telling us McCain was never eligible to be president?
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 10:55 AM   #72
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McCain was born in a military hospital, wasn't he? If he was, he's legally eligible, because any US military base or embassy is considered sovereign ground by the state.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 11:04 AM   #73
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McCain was born in a military hospital, wasn't he? If he was, he's legally eligible, because any US military base or embassy is considered sovereign ground by the state.
It doesn't matter where he's born if his parents are American
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 11:05 AM   #74
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McCain was born in a military hospital, wasn't he? If he was, he's legally eligible, because any US military base or embassy is considered sovereign ground by the state.
i was just jesting.
i couldn't care less.
personally, i think citizenship should be the only pre-requisite, but if it has to be 'natural born', than in my opinion it means anyone who is born with a right to citizenship.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 11:08 AM   #75
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Would PR's representatives come at the expense of other states? Or would congress vote to actually ad more representatives? We'd be getting 2 more senators.

And if adding more representatives, do you think DC might get another? (And, for that matter, Utah to balance out Red and Blue)?
Federal law caps representatives at 435 - so yes, PR's representatives would come at the expense of other states.

As far as DC goes, they don't have any representatives. It was kinda the point behind putting the capitol in a district not belonging to a state.

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McCain was born in a military hospital, wasn't he? If he was, he's legally eligible, because any US military base or embassy is considered sovereign ground by the state.
Doesn't matter - if his parents were citizens, then so is he, regardless of where he was born.
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