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Old Nov 7, 2012, 04:21 PM   #76
Bill Killer
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And to those questioning why someone would use Office over iWorks, there's a few reasons:

1) Pages isn't compatible at all with Word, unless you're doing basic word processing. It can copy and paste text with no issue, but the moment you insert charts/tables, change the margins, insert review comments, and/or insert a few page breaks, the compatibility breaks down. The formatting goes haywire. The two pieces of software just destroy the documents created in the other software.

2) Numbers is useless. It's good for creating charts off basic Excel information, but for more advanced quantitative analysis, Excel is the only option.

3) Keynote, while alone better than Power Point, isn't compatible with corporate America. The only way to properly exchange a presentation is to send it as a PDF file. Otherwise, every corporate entity uses Power Point.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 04:27 PM   #77
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"Basic functionality"

Codeword for: "Let's not allow the iPad steal to steal our show... Office must look as though it performs 'better' on the Surface."
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 04:30 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by MonkeySee.... View Post
When the surface goes tits up, iOS will then get full functionality with a small upgrade price.
This. Seriously, its all marketing on MS part and I can't blame them for this move. Its a token acceptance of the "other" mobile/tablet platforms. And a "If you want the REAL stuff, come get a Surface tablet" statement.

Of course, all 8 of their Surface RT customers will do just that. For the rest of us.....don't need Office for iOS. Already doing that with other products.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 04:37 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subsonix View Post
Funny that both IBM and Oracle offer iOS clients for their products. It's not as replacements for computers these devices succeed but as complements.
Office is the killer app for the Surface and all other Win 8 tablets. MS is leveraging it by restricting it, which is smart. If Win 8 tablets fail, they can always offer it on iOS later. It's not like they have any real competitors anyway in this software sector.

Quote:
Regarding the article, Pages already supports Word documents and I doubt that anyone is going to use a tablet as a primary typing tool anyway. The issue that stood out to me about this isn't that it has limited functionality, but that it requires a Microsoft account.
iOS Pages has always been a $10 version of Wordpad. 2 years later and they still have no equation editor. As an engineer, it's pretty much useless to me.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 05:14 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Dorje Sylas View Post
This would only happen if subscription was linked to inside the App. If it is not mentioned or linked in the App itself then it will not get the Apple tax. It will just piss off everyone who try's to use it.

I see all the 1 start ranting now...

"Sux, can't use at all."

"What's with the login M$, this is broken"

"Doesn't take by Microsoft ID, broken"

"To eveyone who's bitching about not being able log in, this requires a yearly subscription to Office 365. M$ crappy website. 1 star for a crippled subscription piece junk. I'm going back to Pages/Keynote/Numbers."

And so on.
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Originally Posted by DaveMcM76 View Post
Only if you allow subscription creation through the app itself or through a link contained within the app. If the subscriptions are handled through a web site completely external to the app and the app just handles logins into an account to validate the subscription status then you don't need to pay the 30%...

This is why the kindle app has no option to buy books or links to the amazon web site to go to buy new books - it just shows you stuff you've already bought.
The screencap in the article shows a button to "Get an Office 365 Subscription." It is either an external link to buy... which violates the T&C or it's to buy the subscription in Apple's subscription service... thus netting Apple 30%.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 06:09 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by unplugme71 View Post
I'm sure functionality will improve. It's going to be version 1.0 so not much is to be expected. I'd like to see the ability to write in Word even though some advanced features are disabled without subscription.
Did you say: "Without Subscription"? I hope that doesn't mean what I think it means.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 06:55 PM   #82
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Question for Microsoft: why even bother? If someone sends me a ppt or doc file, I can read it for the most part on an iOS device without installing any bloatware. Furthermore, I wouldn't ever be inclined to edit such a document in iOS. Some people talk about iOS not being suitable for enterprise in the manner that enterprise works today. But who cares? While Microsoft got its start duping enterprise into using their stuff and then expanding to the broad market, Apple has done the opposite with iOS. It is now enterprise which lags, clinging to Microsoft document types and standards.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 07:01 PM   #83
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What can we expect from Microsoft?
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 07:13 PM   #84
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 08:00 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by bigjnyc View Post
I'm surprised Apple is not placing a call to Microsoft to try and work out something a little better for iOS devices..... Having a close to fully functioning Office Suite on the ipad and iPhone could really push these devices into the enterprise stratosphere, and give Apple a huge boost. But perhaps they dont really care that much about it, and instead believe numbers and pages can some day be relevant in the business world.
i'm sure ms would laugh at apple for that... they want people especially the business market using surface tablets... with office.

Besides... steve jobs u didn't F#%#k with.... you took his call, but tim cook? nah.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 08:20 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Liquorpuki View Post
Office is the killer app for the Surface and all other Win 8 tablets. MS is leveraging it by restricting it, which is smart. If Win 8 tablets fail, they can always offer it on iOS later. It's not like they have any real competitors anyway in this software sector.
Ok? I don't deny this, it was a comment on iPad in the enterprise sector in general.

The reason they restrict it is that they have interest in the entire platform this time, not just the software. On the desktop they offer a full version of Office because they don't care if they sell their software to a Mac owner or a Dell owner. Right now, word on the Surface doesn't look so good btw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=VTtf_BgFS08

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquorpuki View Post
iOS Pages has always been a $10 version of Wordpad. 2 years later and they still have no equation editor. As an engineer, it's pretty much useless to me.
How much typing does one realistically do on a tablet though, in my opinion it's to review documents and make basic edits while on the move.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 09:04 PM   #87
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Yeah, but let's look at Office for Windows Phone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glassed Silver View Post
Yea, but they all suck.

Glassed Silver:mac
Compare with Office on "true mobile" device
These 3rd party Apps may suck but if you will to look at Office for Windows Phone OS, you may agree that it sucks too, though it is made by Micro$oft for Micro$oft phone OS.

How fully functional can be achieved on mobile device
Pre-installed Office for Surface RT may give you full functionality but that is only possible due to the 10" screen. Without the TouchType Keyboard, you virtually don't see much of the Office App either that is blocked by the on-screen keyboard. iWorks not only works for iPad, it works for smaller iPhone/iPod Touch as well. It may not be fully functional but does its job well while on the go.

Convenient vs compatibility
Surely iWorks on Mac will still have some compatibility differences when compared with iWorks on iOS, such as support for transparent alpha, but the problem can be solved if the user can use transparent PNG instead. When the iWorks file is opened on iOS, such compatibility problem may not seems to be a critical deterrence since it brings convenience to the user without the need to recreated the same file. If Micro$oft Office for desktop mode (Windows 8 RT included) works very well on Windows Phone OS in terms of ability to create file to a close level, then Micro$oft would have no problem gaining market share.

Office vs iWorks vs GoogleDocs in Enterprise
Whether your company rely heavily on Micro$oft or not, it is a matter of time before a standard solution is adopted. Company can continue to work on Office, or look into iWorks if design matters (iWorks do design fast, quick, and beautifully) or even GoogleDocs (work best on browser) if collaboration is essential but design is not crucial.

Conclusion as a consumer
iWorks may not be 100% compatible with Office, but I do enjoy the best of both world by having Windows OS running on my virtual machine if I need to work on Excel Macro, and Access on my MBP. Similarly, I would create beautiful slides, document and spreadsheet using iWorks, which can convert to Office format if sharing is required with acceptable loss of some detail or compatibilty. After all, iWorks on iOS has bridge the gap on mobile editing, presenting and sharing. On the other hand, my company rely heavily on GoogleDocs which works well on the browser. So will I go back to Windows OS (esp. Win 8)? Probably not.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 03:48 AM   #88
varshar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Killer View Post
And to those questioning why someone would use Office over iWorks, there's a few reasons:

1) Pages isn't compatible at all with Word...

2) Numbers is useless...

3) Keynote, while alone better than Power Point, isn't compatible with corporate America...
As much as I enjoy Apple products, I'm afraid this is phase#1 of the typical Microsoft strategy of Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish.

Whether Apple circa 2012 has learnt the lessons of Apple circa 1985 remains to be seen.


-v
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 04:00 AM   #89
Technarchy
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Originally Posted by Krazy Bill View Post
LOL!

Why in god's name should MS be expected to provide the exact same app support for a competing product instead of keeping it exclusive for it's own OS and tablets? What do you want next... iOS apps that run on the Kindle?

Honestly... I really hope some of you people don't manage stock portfolios for a living.
Because they are a software company and iOS is probably the largest market outside of Windows itself.

He'll they'd move more iOS units in a month than Surfaces in a year.

There's a reason they add it to RT for free.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 04:48 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by MacDav View Post
Did you say: "Without Subscription"? I hope that doesn't mean what I think it means.
Yep.. u guesses it..

It means its read-only,

You need a subscription to edit.


Clever of MS, but useless to me,

Now, that IS about as limited your going to get :P

If I already was an Office 365 user, then i wouldn't mind, but I'm not... Why should i need to PAY to edit my own documents.?
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 05:08 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy69 View Post
Took this long to offer "basic functionality"? Why bother then? There's already applications that can open Office documents.
Obviously, they wanted W8 out there. Why help Apple eat the cake MSFT is longing for? Clever move. Gates knew technology. Jobs knew marketing. Ballmer knows sales. Well played, Ballmer. Well played.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by unplugme71 View Post
I'm sure functionality will improve. It's going to be version 1.0 so not much is to be expected. I'd like to see the ability to write in Word even though some advanced features are disabled without subscription.
Buy W8. That will be the message. And this time, there is no antitrust ******** holding MSFT back. Ouch.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by QCassidy352 View Post
Sounds like a step back from the 3rd party solutions that already exist.
Or a step towards W8 for enterprise. Well timed leaks, indeed.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeySee.... View Post
When the surface goes tits up, iOS will then get full functionality with a small upgrade price.
Surface? W8 you mean. Fat chance.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Worksafe View Post
"Microsoft will allow iOS users to purchase an Office 365 subscription within the app, or let organizations distribute codes to enable Office Mobile editing for users. The apps will allow for basic editing, but we're told this won't go very far in attempting to replace regular full use of a desktop Office version."


No use wasting room of iOS for junk from Microsoft.
Yeah, damn junk... thats why people want it in the first place, right? Oh, snap!

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisTX View Post
Whether MS likes it or not, iOS is the dominant mobile OS with business. And the iPad is the standard all other tablets strive to be. I don't need or want limited function Office. I want full featured Office, and have no problem paying for it either.
MSFT does not like it. And, the battle for business is hardly won. Because you (and the rest of business) dont want a limited version of Office, more people will tilt towards W8 tablets instead. That is how you leverage one asset to increase sales of another. Brutal, but smart.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 05:09 AM   #92
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Divinox, did you just argue "people want it, therefore it is good?"
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 05:13 AM   #93
divinox
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Originally Posted by peterdevries View Post
That's exactly the reason why they will cripple the version for iOS, even with the subscription. I would do the same thing if I wanted my tablet to gain traction in the business market.

I really hope Apple will develop their iWork apps further and make them more usable to be competitors to Office, because MS might be behind a few years in App store size and tablet sales, but the business market is a massive factor in playing catch-up.

----------



They have. They will offer it on the Surface. The soon major competitor to the iPad. Microsoft is being smart. They don't want all these iPad owners to download Office and be happy. They want iPad owners to sell those things and buy Surface tablets with Office pre-installed. More money for MS...
Dont limit things to the Surface. Surface is a very, very small bet. What matters is adoption of W8 tablets (and by extension, W8). Who makes the devices matter very little in the end. If W8 is successful, MSFT win.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cydonia View Post
So MS pledged to support Mac in 1996/7 when Jobs returned. MS only started boasting about cross platform compatibility 1-2 years ago…the speech about printing out the same document & comparing them side by side etc.
Therefore MS Office for iOS will be great on the iPad 19? Yawn MS, you're a Software company - go make some software!
They are. Its called Windows 8. It runs Office. Try it some time, you might like it. Using your logic, why are you not complaining that the Apple store does not run on other platforms? "Youre a hardware company. Go make so hardware".

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy Bill View Post
HA! I knew it!

There is no way MS would offer a full-fledged working copy of Office for iOS. It's their flagship product for Win8 and the new Win8 tablets. Makes sense from MS's perspective to milk subscriptions to Office 360 yet keep the apps crippled for Apple devotees. Quite clever actually.

This settles the clear distinction between a useless iPad in the Enterprise market and everything else. iOS users are stuck with consumer apps like Pages, Numbers and Keynote - things the corporate world will never use.
Spot on. Check - your move, Apple.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by VulchR View Post
I was kinda being sarcastic. In any case, this is a none starter for me - MS needs to realize that mobile devices don't always have access to networks. Mind you, maybe this is what MS wants: a way of leveraging Surface.
W8 (tablets), otherwise yes.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 05:14 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by divinox View Post
MSFT does not like it. And, the battle for business is hardly won. Because you (and the rest of business) dont want a limited version of Office, more people will tilt towards W8 tablets instead. That is how you leverage one asset to increase sales of another. Brutal, but smart.
How many people that care about a full featured version of Word and use it alot will actually want to use it on a tablet though. Windows RT has more in common with iOS, and is not Windows 8 really.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 05:22 AM   #95
divinox
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Originally Posted by DaveMcM76 View Post
Only if you allow subscription creation through the app itself or through a link contained within the app. If the subscriptions are handled through a web site completely external to the app and the app just handles logins into an account to validate the subscription status then you don't need to pay the 30%...

This is why the kindle app has no option to buy books or links to the amazon web site to go to buy new books - it just shows you stuff you've already bought.
Not like MSFT lacks leverage here either. I think Apple wants a crippled Office on iOS more than the 30% cut. But that is just me speculating here.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjnyc View Post
I'm surprised Apple is not placing a call to Microsoft to try and work out something a little better for iOS devices..... Having a close to fully functioning Office Suite on the ipad and iPhone could really push these devices into the enterprise stratosphere, and give Apple a huge boost. But perhaps they dont really care that much about it, and instead believe numbers and pages can some day be relevant in the business world.
Which is exactly why MSFT are not interested in making such a deal. Why would MSFT help Apple compete with MSFT in enterprise? Makes no sense at all, really.

Then again, for $50bn everything is negotiable

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAT View Post
And you know what this says to me? Surface/WinRT version of Office will be subscription based. THAT is the bad news.
No. Office on RT is free. On x86 it will work as always.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRumorUser View Post
Are you really all that surprised ?

Microsoft are not going to give potential Office users with a tablet a reason to choose IOS or Android over a Windows RT or Pro device.

Windows RT needs all the push it can get right now, and Office RT is a convincing argument in that push.
Indeed.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nutmac View Post
Office 365 subscription starts at $4/month, which includes hosted email that I don't need at all. I sincerely hope Microsoft will offer cheaper plan ($10/year) without email.
Why would they? It would be like Apple selling a product without adding a few hundred bucks on top.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 05:23 AM   #96
Renzatic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subsonix View Post
How many people that care about a full featured version of Word and use it alot will actually want to use it on a tablet though. Windows RT has more in common with iOS, and is not Windows 8 really.
RT has more in common with Windows 8 than it does iOS. It kinda lies somewhere between the two.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 05:39 AM   #97
divinox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fongkahchun86 View Post
Compare with Office on "true mobile" device
These 3rd party Apps may suck but if you will to look at Office for Windows Phone OS, you may agree that it sucks too, though it is made by Micro$oft for Micro$oft phone OS.

How fully functional can be achieved on mobile device
Pre-installed Office for Surface RT may give you full functionality but that is only possible due to the 10" screen. Without the TouchType Keyboard, you virtually don't see much of the Office App either that is blocked by the on-screen keyboard. iWorks not only works for iPad, it works for smaller iPhone/iPod Touch as well. It may not be fully functional but does its job well while on the go.

Convenient vs compatibility
Surely iWorks on Mac will still have some compatibility differences when compared with iWorks on iOS, such as support for transparent alpha, but the problem can be solved if the user can use transparent PNG instead. When the iWorks file is opened on iOS, such compatibility problem may not seems to be a critical deterrence since it brings convenience to the user without the need to recreated the same file. If Micro$oft Office for desktop mode (Windows 8 RT included) works very well on Windows Phone OS in terms of ability to create file to a close level, then Micro$oft would have no problem gaining market share.

Office vs iWorks vs GoogleDocs in Enterprise
Whether your company rely heavily on Micro$oft or not, it is a matter of time before a standard solution is adopted. Company can continue to work on Office, or look into iWorks if design matters (iWorks do design fast, quick, and beautifully) or even GoogleDocs (work best on browser) if collaboration is essential but design is not crucial.

Conclusion as a consumer
iWorks may not be 100% compatible with Office, but I do enjoy the best of both world by having Windows OS running on my virtual machine if I need to work on Excel Macro, and Access on my MBP. Similarly, I would create beautiful slides, document and spreadsheet using iWorks, which can convert to Office format if sharing is required with acceptable loss of some detail or compatibilty. After all, iWorks on iOS has bridge the gap on mobile editing, presenting and sharing. On the other hand, my company rely heavily on GoogleDocs which works well on the browser. So will I go back to Windows OS (esp. Win 8)? Probably not.
Without the touch keyboard, you could always place the tablet in a dock and type away using a regular keyboard on a regular screen. But hey, lets not go wild and crazy here, shall we.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by subsonix View Post
How many people that care about a full featured version of Word and use it alot will actually want to use it on a tablet though. Windows RT has more in common with iOS, and is not Windows 8 really.
Once tablets become common in the work place, many. Saves a whole lot of money too. Invest in a good screen. Invest in a docking station. Invest in a proper tablet. Done. When will the iPad allow for that? 2020?

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
RT has more in common with Windows 8 than it does iOS. It kinda lies somewhere between the two.
RT is baby windows, waiting to grow up. iOS is just old. But yes, in that sense, you are both right. The new born RT is pretty much iOS. Over time, though, RT will mature and become much like its father, Darth W8der.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 05:55 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by divinox View Post
Once tablets become common in the work place, many. Saves a whole lot of money too. Invest in a good screen. Invest in a docking station. Invest in a proper tablet. Done. When will the iPad allow for that? 2020?
That remains to be seen, putting a full size keyboard on top of that form factor reveals that two keys sticks out over the edge, ie the keyboard is significantly smaller. IMO as always when a sector gets disrupted, the reasons and what causes it is often only observable in hindsight. I know that MS vision of it is that tablet = regular computer, I'm not so sure about that.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
RT has more in common with Windows 8 than it does iOS. It kinda lies somewhere between the two.
In your opinion. You can not run Windows 8 applications, nor can you port existing x86 applications, apps are acquired from the Microsoft Store exclusively, you can not buy Windows RT it comes pre-installed on the device. Obviously it's possible to have a debate to what degree it's similar, but what's the point. It's MS restricted mobile version, that follows a lot of the same ideas.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 06:48 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by saud0488 View Post
But Pages always has, and always will, suck.
No it isn't and no it doesn't. But I guess it's all about your criteria - I much prefer the simplicity and nicer and logical UI of Pages over Word.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy Bill View Post
Nobody uses it except soccer moms for the occasional garage sale flyer. The world needs 100% MS-Office compatibility and Pages fails at this.
That is something Microsoft sales people and its resellers would try and convince you to believe, but it's patently false. The vast majority of people do *not* need all the extra functionality in Word (or Office), a product like Pages is perfect for most of us, and it's not just soccer moms' stuff and whatever else you think that is produced with Pages, it's serious documents too. I'm quite familiar with Office, having used it for over 20 years, and I much prefer Pages for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that it is adequate for my needs.

Last edited by WilliamLondon; Nov 8, 2012 at 07:09 AM.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 06:52 AM   #100
Renzatic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamLondon View Post
No it isn't and no it doesn't. But I guess it's all about your criteria - I much prefer the simplicity and nicer and logical UI of Pages over Word.
The biggest problem with most people here is you're all stuck in this either/or mindset. Simplicity overrides complexity. If you can't learn it in 5 seconds, it's not worth learning at all.

The way I see it, if you want to bang out a nice looking document quickly, you'll use Pages. If you want granular control over every single thing in a complex document, you'll use Word. Both have their place depending on what you want to do.
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